Well I finally shot a round of trap with the red dot on my 870. Talk about sweet! Now I have not shot trap in several years and it took a while getting used to the way the birds flew. I did make some hits on the first 15 but I think I was hurring my shots and did not use the dot like I should have. Straight ones were easy I did not miss hardly any of those but the right and left flying birds took a while to remember how I used to shoot them. I will tell you after I remembered my leads ect it was a piece of cake with the red dot the last 8 of of 10 I shot were hits. Now that I know where to reference the dot to the bird it was really easy. You still have to know where to shoot for each bird, but that red dot out there made it easy after I got the hang out of it. It should work great for hunting. I was impressed that red dot made a good reference point and it was easy to track the bird with the dot. I am going out again next wed and shoot a couple of rounds. The guy I rode out to the trap club tonite wanted to try his new Beneli Nova and we only stayed for one round the next time we will shoot several rounds. It might not be for every body but I like it and after I got used to it I can hit with it also and thats what counts! Jim Oh I looked but did not see Kerry out there.

There nothing wrong with red dot sights, but they will have a tendency to make you AIM not point the shotgun. To point out the obvious, shotguns are not rifles and while shooting at flying targets you don't AIM the shotgun, you point it while hopefully maintaining a smooth swing.

I'm not current on all the top trap shooter's equipment but I don't think any of them use red dots. If they worked FOR THEM, they would.

AIMing a shotgun like we AIM a rifle is one of the worst habits a shotgun shooter can get into. Don't do it.

I am not aiming as much as I am using the red dot as a large front sight in reference to the bird. You still have to maintain swing and good shotgun habits to make it work. If you have never tried it do not knock it. Jim

As a side note there was a guy out at the range using a holo sight and doing well with it so some folks are using it. In the same respect for the folks who shoot trap all the time with their expensive trap guns I am sure they would not want to put a sight on them. BUT for the Hunting gun if it works and is easily mounted why not! Others who shoot trap using pumps ect that have a way to mount the red dot why not if it works. Like I said you still have to swing on the birds and maintain lead just that the red dot gives you a good reference and faster where your shot pattern is going to go. Actually no difference than some one putting a fiberoptic bead on the front of their gun except the dot works better! Jim

Perhaps you misunderstood the intent of my post. I am a misuderstood kind of guy . I was not knocking your using a red dot, but telling you why it is not used by many people who are serious about shotgunning. I use red dots on pistols and rifles quite often. Actually, because of the minimal shotgun movements in trap, it would lend itself to a red dot IF you are good enough to maintain discipline for the rest of the necessary ingredients to good shotgunning. Most people aren't. Some good shooters have used scopes, etc for years, very, very few of them make the winner's circle at bigger events. This is a fact, not an opinion.

Since I read your synopsis of your efforts at trap shooting elsewhere, I thought I would give you some friendly advice. I was hoping you would take it in the spirit in which it was offered. If you don't regularly shoot in the mid to high 90s or 100 straights at trap singles, then you can use it, no offense intended. I've been around the trap shooting block a time or two, as well as skeet and some sporting clays. I was AA,27,AA when Saeed started and when he quit. Just FYI he was the one of the BEST trapshooters I ever saw in spite of his obvious bad habits, so given enough talent, you can overcome any obstacles in your shotgunning path, but why make it harder than it needs to be? Good luck and have fun.

PPS:



I can assure you that if using red dots, scopes, holos, or anything else would gain a serious trap shooter a target EVERY NOW AND THEN, then they would drill THROUGH the engraving on their shotgun, if it had any, to mount the scope or dot, etc.



One target is usually the differnce between being in the shoot off or hearing, "Well, that's good shooting, try to do better next week." And that's a fact. I've been there, done that on both sides, many, many, times.

I hear what you are saying and all I am saying is he what ever works. I also think that a lot of good trap shooters even though they might benifit with one would never try it because they would get kidded too much or figure they are good enough they do not need a shooting aid. Nothing new about shotgun sights they had them back in the 50's did not catch on for wing shooting then and probably will not now though folks do use them on turkey guns. I had guys look at mine that were interested in the concept but I know they would not put one on their guns. Hey to each their own. Even if it is considered aiming to a point if I can hit with it is all that matters. The article I read on it had folks that never shot trap hitting well with it after a short instruction. Of course you could make that same statement about regular trap shooting after a short instuction period also. All I am saying if it works for me I will use it wether the shotgun guru's consider it proper or not. I only shot trap for one season in leagues and the best I ever did was 24 out of 25 so yea I know all about that one bird. I also talked to guys who have shot for years when I was shooting the other day and the 20's through 24s were common. I think not only does it take a good skilled shot to shoot 25 straight or 50, 75 100 ect it also takes a bit of luck also one mistake like taking moving your head will lose you that one bird. No I am not expirienced as you at the sport and probably never will be but I do listen to the others when I have been out there. Now days I shoot a round here and there to keep my skill level up for hunting. I might get into it again but then again I may not. Good sport but gets expensive if done at a steady basis and I cannot afford that. Jim

One more thing yea I will take any advice with the spirit intended on any shooting matters. That is how one learns even one tip picked up may help down the line. Some folks on this forum may think I am a prick because of the political forum and my baiting of saeed. I should stay away from there I guess as it is the only forum that I show my bad manners I know every one has the right to their veiws but I get tired real quick with the USA bashing and the President Bashing ect. If I wanted to listen to Bush Bashing I could turn on the TV and listen to Kerry spew his nonsense. But then that is my view on it you and others may disagree. I do not know where you met saeed either here or over there but he sure takes a dim view of the USA ect.

I hate to speak for him, but I think your analysis of Saeed and his views towards the US and Americans is 100% wrong. Just because he doesn't like Bush, (which is easy to do, I've grown to detest him even after I voted for him) doesn't mean he hates America or Americans.

I met him shooting trap in Texas and Louisiana and at the Grand where he handily beat Dan Bonillas for Doubles Champion of the US as well as winning the Champion of Champion race in singles. Oh yeah, did I mention this was the second year he shot trap. We are friendly acquaintances and I think he is a fine person and a fine hunter as well as a phenomenal shot. I would welcome him into my home anytime.

jh45gun:

Gatogordo and I come of the same school when it comes to shotguns. He has referred (as he himself says) to the "obvious" when it comes to Red Dots in that it may encourage attempts to "aim" rather than to point the shotgun. You have noted that it helped you. One reason for this may be that there are "minimal movements in trap" (as Gatogordo correctly notes). Shooting a shotgun at wing targets is a matter of a "mix" of instinct, coordination, eye focus (including seeing all around the sky area near the (real)bird and adding in something like a Red Dot would be too much for me at my age -and at some targets like ruffed grouse, would be useless. If it helps you at trap, fine. I think I only want to hope that it doesn't give you any bad habits that will truly handicap you in shooting at live birds. Shooting a shotgun should be so instinctive and so "built in" to your senses and even your body, that often you'll know you missed -even in the instant that you fired. There was something not quite right - and I include snap shots at ruffed grouse. (Are there any other kind?) Anyway, enjoy what works for you.

Gerald, Fortunately the way this sight is set up there is ample room to look underneath it to use the barrel and shoot normally. I made a leather lace on cheek rest to raise my head on the stock to look through the sight yet I can still shoot normally if I need to and still get a good cheek weld. Also you can use both eyes open so you can see around the sight to get your bearings if need be. I know it may not be for every body. I found it to work and it worked great goose hunting for me last fall also though duck and goose hunting is more open than grouse would be. As low as the cycle was last your I do not think I have to worry about two many grouse for the next couple of years. Jim

Jim:

After I posted, it occurred to me that your Red Dot, would, indeed be great on geese and ducks in pass shooting. (When I was a boy, we used to shoot Canadas flying down the Hudson River (NY). As I remember I had to open up a lot of sky in swinging before I fired - and it took me a whole lot of misses before I did so. I think we just didn't realize how fast a Canada is moving with a full head of steam on. A Red Dot system would have helped reduce the trial and error by showing us spacing that we could remember for the next time around. (I smiled at your reference to a low cycle for ruffs last year in your area. Low cycle or not, I did little to make matters worse for them! I don't hunt any more but I'm glad that some things haven't changed. (I always considered that I was doing very well if I had 5 birds for a box of shells. A few banner years I was doing 6-7 birds for a box. Of course, the shotgun I did it with I would trade away for something I saw and wanted - and couldn't hit the side of a barn with)

Yea Now days it is the hunting and just getting out that is more important to me. Yea putting something in the game bag is great but if I do not no big deal. Like I said grouse are at their low end of the cycle now and the ducks and geese are around they are not as thick as I would like either. Oh there are opportunities but where I live in WI next to MN it seems like the flyway has shifted more west ducks and geese in the Dakota's than around here. But still there are chances to come across a few now and then. Now Deer hunting is a different situation no problems there they are all over the place. One thing about the grouse ( Ruffed ) when the season is late and the leaves are off the trees it might help for them long shots. Same with sharptails they favor open land and flush at longer ranges. Jim

Jim:

When you mentioned WI, it triggered memories of being invited years ago on a ruff hunt there. I couldn't make it but I heard about the hunting and never forgot it.In one of those accidents of life I just never got there to hunt ruffs. What you said about the shifts in flyway migrations of geese and ducks was true for us here in NY (and I was nearer to the Atlantic Coast)Deer are simply not the animal I hunted years ago. (Today, they browse on house foundation plantings and in broad daylight -and weigh an average of about 105 lbs or so here on Long Island,NY for bucks. (One time when I had just moved to Long Island from real upstate NY I saw what I thought was a Great Dane - and was a full grown buck. So much for what used to be a real elusive game animal! You'red right about long shots on ruffs after all the leaves are down- that's also when I could use my modified choke, right? It's also when I could use #6s, high base and by heaven, I'll drop them now!. Yeah, sure. In my humble opinion, the ruffed grouse is the best flying game target of all!. (You mention sharptails which I never shot at so i guess I should withhold judgment)

Sharptails can be a challenge just getting near them as they flush a lot out of range. Example I know where there is some or at least there used to be and they would flush at one end of the field as you entered the other. Other times you can get in range but they never seem to flush like ruffs do. One thing once you do flush them they tend to fly straight away so it is a easy shot if within range. Yea I think Ruffed grouse are great and oh the taste nothing can compare to them as far as other birds go! As far as our deer go a average young buck would go around 150# I would bet and a 3 year old or more 180 average. then we do have some monsters once in a while that go 250 or more. Jim