For a guy a bit beyond "middle-aged", I have questions befitting a new and young shooter. I am relatively new to shotguns, and have discovered that the most ill-fitting shotgun I have is the one I shoot best?!!!!? I have been attending YHEC events with my daughter (who is the Oregon Jr. Girls Champion as of two weeks ago) and have been shooting with a bunch of kids and adults doing a form of sporting clays once a week. My daughters gun is a Baikal O/U, and is shortened 1/2", which makes the comb too high for me. My father-in-law loaned me a Sears semi with an adjustable poly choke which I've done okay with a trap 17-19 hits per round now. Then a friend gave me a Savage Fox that had a really bad finish, and a broken striker. I had the action repaired, while I refinished the wood. The gun is quite nice looking, but I found that there was so much drop in the stock, that I had difficulty in finding my cheek with the stock! I took it out one day for sporting clays and astounded myself with a 23 and a 22! Half the time my stock was not on my face, but the gun just hits anyway. Unfortunately, the gun has been in the shop for the last 3 months, so I am shooting little. The Fox has very open chokes, one IC and one closer to cylinder. It is , of course a s/s, in 20 gauge with 24" barrels. I can shoot 20's frequently on the trap range with this gun, which shouldn't be possible. Anyway,what are some guidelines one should follow in selecting a shotgun, regarding fit? I am and have always been a rifle shooter, and am sure this works against me, as everything I know seems to be wrong where a shotgun is concerned. I am more interested in "real" responses, as opposed to what someone said in a magazine article. If my errant Fox isn't soon out of the shop, I may soon be looking for a new shotgun. Help? (Hey, pretty cool about my kid, huh?) Chuck

The measure I have used is to measure from the tip of your trigger finger to your shoulder.

You raise both hands, put the together, poin you trigger finger out, let the left hand fall and measure from to the shoulder to the tip of the finger, in cm, on your right hand.
Then you pluss 6 cm and divide with 2. That should give ther right lengt. Usually from 35-38cm. A trap gun should be a bit longer. This is the lengt of of the gun from the trigger and back.

I have no clue on measuring cast of. A staight stock with small modifactins like Perrazzi use sound to me like the best way.

Hope his made any sence. I know it is used by the serious trap shooters here.

Johan

ChuckD:

Shotgun Fit is kind of like picking a woman, some people like things a little different than others.

I suspect that you have a tendency to "lift" your head, that is not have a good, firm, relationship with the stock on the other shotguns you have tried and that the older Fox, with the typical to the time, much lower comb(more drop) allows you to keep your head up, but you probably maintain it in a "natural" and repeatable position which allows you to shoot it better than the more modern stock dimensioned guns.

I tend to like shorter stocks on hunting(and for me, target, but others have different opinions) shotguns, just long enough to avoid having your trigger hand thumb hit you in the nose with heavy recoiling loads. This usually translates into about 1 1/2 to 2 inches between the back of your thumb and your nose(with the gun mounted, of course). A fair amount of shooters shoot guns that are too long for them IMO. If you are a serious shotgun hunter, it is not a bad idea to have 2 recoil pads, one shorter for colder weather, for instance duck hunting, when you are usually wearing a heavy coat, and one longer for warmer.

If you are not experienced enough to "feel" how a gun fits you, then you can actually find out with a bit of work, by going out and shooting an old sheet hanging about 20 yards in front of you, just like it was a bird, starting with a low gun and mounting it, and firing at the center in one motion, not taking time to deliberately aim. After a few shots the pattern center will become obvious and if it is not centered on the sheet you need to adjust how you stock is dimensioned. Generally, if it is too high, you stock's comb is too high, and the reverse is true. If it is right or left you will probably need some cast off, or more rarely, cast on, both of which are harder to come by, than comb height adjustments. Also, keep in mind, that while rare, it is certainly possible that the barrels are bent or not shooting to a normal impact point. However, all of the above requires that you make a consistent mount to really learn anything. If you are wiggling around while trying to get the gun in position and afterwards, like some beginners do, then it is difficult to draw a firm conclusion.

It is really not rocket science, and there are many people who break the "rules" of stock fit, or shooting stance and shoot very well with their choices. I think the ones who bend the rules,and are good shotgun shots tend to do most of the other fundamentals very correctly. The most critical thing with any shotgun is your head position, doesn't really matter where it is, but it MUST be in nearly the exact same spot EVERY shot for you to consistently connect since your eyes are your rear sight on a shotgun and moving the sights(your eye position) obviously affects where you shot goes. Most people achieve this by maintaining a firm but not crushing cheek/stock contact and that is why you will hear shotgun coaches say "Don't lift your head", or, "Don't peek at it" or "Keep your head down." Stance is another issue in which there are wide variations practiced, but if you start with a good balanced stance, it makes learning easier for most. There are exceptions to every rule.......our own Saeed is one of them. I think it is fair to say he has the worst shotgun stance of anyone who ever won the Doubles Championship of America, but that didn't stop him from beating Dan Bonillas in a shootoff and winning the Championship at the Grand American some years back.

Congratulations on your daughter's success. Must be some good shooting genes in there somewhere.

Thanks to both of you. It helps. Gatergo, the truth is, I think, that when I get a good stockweld, I revert back to rifle shooting, which I have done a lot of since I was about 8 yrs. old. This of course means that I spend way too much time looking at the rib and bead. The Fox forces me to pull the gun to face and fire. It actually does not need to reach my cheek for a dead bird, just close. Could be some other factor, I really don't know for sure. I do know that one works, and the one that should work does okay at trap, but not well at low-gun mount in sporting clays. Also, thanks much for your compliment and congrats for my daughter. Next Friday I will be driving to Pa. with the equipment trailer for the Oregon Team for the international event, which will be the final event for the year---I am so tired of reloading shotshells, driving 90 miles round trip for the YHEC weekly practice, and trying to convince my daughter that winners practice what they are bad at too. I have never pushed her to go further than she wanted, but as long as she stays with it, she should try to do her best. Kids seem to doubt that they can improve in areas where they have more difficulty, not having enough experience with life to know that the most improvement comes precisely there. But in spite of the demands on my time and resources, I have to say that is well worth it, and I am blessed to have my kid as a shooting partner and hunting buddy! Regards, and thanks, Chuck

Chuck:

I have seen your problem in a lot of adult males that I have helped shoot a bit better. They AIM a shotgun, instead of pointing it. IT AIN"T A RIFLE and you must get over trying for the perfect shot placement. Mount, point and swing, in one motion, and shoot while continuing to swing. I know you know this, you just have to do like your daughter and go and and put it into practice. Ask her how she shoots? LOL

BTW, while trap is a wonderful shotgun sport, and most of the people who are associated with it are great(not counting the odd Arab from Dubai)it is not a very good sport to learn how to shoot a shotgun. The main reason for this is that the shotgun movement is trap shooting is very limited, and, of course, all the targets are going away. Go to the skeet range to learn, shoot one target until you are consistently hitting it and go on.

and when all else fails remember that the shotgun will always shoot where it's pointed which isn't always where your looking.