I am out of my mind or does a 1oz load @1200fps for 28ga just seem a bit ridiculous?

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a nimble little shotgun with negligible recoil?

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
I am out of my mind or does a 1oz load @1200fps for 28ga just seem a bit ridiculous?

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of having a nimble little shotgun with negligible recoil?

Yes, yes, and yes.

I just bought 10,000 3/4 oz 12 ga wads to make my 12 ga shotguns shoot like 28s.

So far these light loads have smoked skeet and 16 yd trap targets just fine.

Seems excessive to me, by a large margin. I shoot the 28 ga a lot and never have seen the need to load more than 3/4 ounce.

quote:

Originally posted by df06:
Seems excessive to me, by a large margin. I shoot the 28 ga a lot and never have seen the need to load more than 3/4 ounce.

+1 Spot on.

Depends on what you're trying to kill and how far. I never have complained about a bird being too dead (not counting the rare centered pattern at a few feet), but I have seen a bunch of dead ones fly off.

Only if you are perhaps using lighter tin shot or steel does it make sense and you need that extra capacity as well as weight to "equal up" to lead.

I am going to disagree in that I find the 1 Oz. load very effective on wild pheasants. For quail the 3/4 load is just fine. So far I am 19 straight on wild pheasants with my Ruger 28 and the Winchester 1 oz load. Too much recoil? Please give me a break!

465H&H

I've never found the need for anything more than 3/4 oz in the 28 gauge, but then I haven't used the 28 on larger, tougher birds like pheasants as 465H&H has.

However, I don't think anyone is going to wring 1200 fps out of a 1 oz load in a 28. I'm thinking that it will max out more like 1100-1135 fps with such a heavy load. If I were out to shoot pheasants or grouse with a 28, I think I might opt for a compromise with 7/8 oz of shot which can be boosted to 1200 fps.

But when you get right down to it, the 3/4 oz load is well "balanced" in the 28 gauge and more shot makes for a longer and relatively less effective shot string. I think in the end I'd rather have more velocity and fewer pellets, but concentrate those pellets in a smaller area. Bottom line: I shoot four different 28's and can't ever see loading anything other than 3/4 oz in them.

BTW: Just got back from a dove hunt this last weekend where three of four of us were shooting 28's, with the fourth guy shooting a 20. The guy with the 20 came in number four in percentage and number of birds killed. Now, I'm not saying that a 28 is superior to other gauges for such hunting, but its mild recoil and softer report make an active day's shooting much less fatiguing than with a larger gauge.

I've shot doves with everything from 12's to 410's and have found that I can kill as many birds and as far away with a 28 as with any other gauge.

Winchester loads 1oz @1205.

If I am going to use 1oz, I reach for my lovely 16ga.

I am relatively new to the 28ga and so far have been satisfied with 3/4oz and 7/8oz loads. Ultimately I hope to get down to 5/8oz loads.

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Winchester loads 1oz @1205.
Andy

Yeah, and they used to list their 100 grain .243 loads at 3070 fps, which will actually chronograph in the neighborhood of 2750 fps. Like I say, getting an ounce of shot up to 1200 fps out of a 28 gauge would be something of a strain.

I happen to have a single box of the 1 oz WW 28 gauge shells. I can't remember where I came by it or why, but I think I'll break out the old Oehler 35 and see what those shells are actually doing.

Thats way too heavy for a 28 bore- the shot column is long and the result is shot deformation. The 1 oz. load is a 12 bore load.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
I am going to disagree in that I find the 1 Oz. load very effective on wild pheasants. For quail the 3/4 load is just fine. So far I am 19 straight on wild pheasants with my Ruger 28 and the Winchester 1 oz load. Too much recoil? Please give me a break!

465H&H

I also have shot a bunch of SD pheasants with my 5 pound double and an oz of 5's.

At the same time, the 1 1/8 oz. 20, the 1 1/4 oz. 16, and the 1 1/2 oz. 12 are all excessive.
joe

Check out some of the Curmudgeons 1700 fps 28 gauge loads.

A 1oz load in a 28 gauge?

WOW... That is "excessive"...just ask the hundreds of wild pheasants that have fallen to that load out of my 28 Parker.

The 3/4 load with 7.5's or 9's is very effective on dove and quail.

Life is short, shoot what you like, have fun!

Like DrewHenry, I use the 3/4 and 7/8 oz loads in my two 28s. Using the 28s give me less recoil and easier handling which is why I have them in the first place. I have a 20ga for 1oz loads.

Question for those who find 1oz not excessive....I suppose you believe a 1.75oz 16ga load isn't excessive either?

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Question for those who find 1oz not excessive....I suppose you believe a 1.75oz 16ga load isn't excessive either?

Tell me where I can buy some and I'll try them and let you know!

465H&H

A 1oz load @1200fps sends just as many pellets at the same velocity whether fired out of a 28ga, 20ga, 16ga, or 12ga. Different chokes with each of the bores can be selected to pattern as required and down range performance would be the same regardless of the bore diameter.

So where is the difference? Recoil! Properly sized actions could mean 1 to 1.5 pounds difference in weight between a 12ga and a 28ga.

That said, there are many USA shooters who believe the minimum pheasant load is a 3" 12ga shell spewing 1-3/4oz of #4 shot. For those shooters 1oz of shot at 1200fps from a 6lb gun might seem tame. Me? I think it leads to chronic brain injury - think Rocky Balboa. I'll stick to 13/16oz and 3/4oz loads in the 28ga. I find those work fine for everything, though I don't shoot ducks.

Funny, our UK friends seem quite content with a 1oz or 1-1/16oz 12ga load of #6 UK shot (equal to #7 USA) for faster and higher birds.

quote:

Originally posted by drewhenrytnt:
Question for those who find 1oz not excessive....I suppose you believe a 1.75oz 16ga load isn't excessive either?

Why would anyone shoot a 16 gauge?

I can understand that some people may think that 1.75 oz out of a 16 might be "excessive"...if you do, don't shoot it!

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
A 1oz load @1200fps sends just as many pellets at the same velocity whether fired out of a 28ga, 20ga, 16ga, or 12ga. Different chokes with each of the bores can be selected to pattern as required and down range performance would be the same regardless of the bore diameter.

Well, not quite.

The smaller the bore the longer the shot string. Long shot strings show up exactly the same as short shot strings on a stationary target like a patterning board. But when the target is moving (like a dove with the wind or a teal at 30 to 50 mph) the longer shot string has the effect of being less dense on the moving target.

In other words, a 1-oz load from a 12 guage is effectively denser than a 1-oz load from a 28 gauge when the target is moving since more of the pellets from the 28 lag behind, especially if the target movement is close to 90 degrees to the shooter. The difference is rather small, but many experienced shotgunners say they can tell the difference.

Of course, the length of the shot string is a two-edged sword since a longer shot string effectively makes a slightly wider, thus more forgiving pattern.

But in my experience, if you point the gun in the right place the bird falls, regardless.

Interesting article about shotgun shells.....in fact, the shot string length does cost some pellets on target, but the percentage is (surprisingly low to me) fairly low, in the case of the .410 (by far longest shot string, over 10 feet at 40 yds) they estimated it at about 5%.

Article here.

Choke makes the difference.

It is common for people to think of shotgun pellets as either a 2-dimensional pattern on a piece of paper or as a "string" of pellets moving through the air. But neither of those gives an adequate picture. It is better to imagine the pellets moving through the air as a "cloud" of shot. As it moves, the cloud expands from front to rear as well as in diameter, and individual pellet velocities and positions within the cloud change slightly. A bird is hit with pellets as the cloud passes them. If the gun is swinging when fired then the gun paints the cloud over the target in the same fashion as a moving can of spray paint sends a cloud of paint over an object. We see some paint hit the object and what misses continues by as a cloud.

Guns are choked to create clouds of varying "effective" diameters and densities. Generally speaking, regardless of gauge, guns are choked to deliver at:

Full Choke – approximately 70 percent of a shell’s total pellets in a 30″ circle at 40 yards.

Modified Choke – approximately 60 percent of a shell’s total pellets in a 30″ circle at 40 yards.

Improved Cylinder Choke – approximately 50 percent of a shell’s total pellets in a 30″ circle at 40 yards.

Cylinder Bore – approximately 40 percent of a shell’s total pellets in a 30″ circle at 40 yards.

Skeet Choke – approximately 50 percent of a shell’s total pellets in a 30″ circle at 25 yards.

A shell with 1oz of #6 has about 225 pellets, regardless of the bore diameter those pellets emerge from. The effective diameter and density of the shot "cloud" as it moves around a target is determined by choke. A 28ga shooting 225 pellets of #6 and a 12ga shooting 225 pellets of #6 at the same velocity will produce approximately the same result down range because the gun is choked to do so.

.

Gatogordo -

Nice article. I think it would have been better if they only changed one variable for a test. For example, they compared 12-gauge, 3-inch, 1-1⁄4 ounce loads at 1450 fps (Modified choke) with 3-1⁄2 inch, 1-1⁄2 ounce loads at 1500 fps (Modified choke). Both the load and the velocity were different instead of just one or the other. Another example is the comparison between 20-gauge 1-ounce load of 7-1⁄2 shot at 1165 fps (Modified choke) and the 12-gauge 1-ounce load of 7-1⁄2 shot at 1235 fps (Modified choke). The velocity difference invalidates the comparison between the gauges.


I have Bob Brister's book, "Shotgunning". He did a lot more than just shoot 16' long targets pulled behind a station wagon. It provides lots of observed results from many tests and comparisons. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in shotgun sports.

I disagree that the minor differences in velocity invalidate the results. I mean we're not talking nuclear physics here.

Brister was a great shot and shotgun experimenter but he didn't have the testing equipment available today and his deductions don't all stand up to modern testing. I first read his book about 35 years ago. I met him once while hunting pheasants and sharps near Lewistown, Mt. Nice guy.

BTW, it ain't just choke. Otherwise a 1 oz load in a 28 ga would be just as effective as a 1 oz load in a 12. T'ain't so.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I disagree that the minor differences in velocity invalidate the results. I mean we're not talking nuclear physics here.

Brister was a great shot and shotgun experimenter but he didn't have the testing equipment available today and his deductions don't all stand up to modern testing. I first read his book about 35 years ago. I met him once while hunting pheasants and sharps near Lewistown, Mt. Nice guy.

BTW, it ain't just choke. Otherwise a 1 oz load in a 28 ga would be just as effective as a 1 oz load in a 12. T'ain't so.

Sorry, but I disagree. If velocities are the same , I believe a 1oz load in a 28 ga IS just as effective as a 1oz load in a 12, or for that matter a 1oz load in a 20ga or a 16ga. But there is a big difference in shootability - recoil, weight, etc. If choked accordingly, 225 shot pellets of #6 at 1200fps is the same regardless of the barrel it just left.

However, there would be a difference if the 1oz 28ga load was going 1165fps and the 1oz 12ga load was going 1235fps. That is why I objected in part to some of the comparisons done by Field & Stream.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I disagree that the minor differences in velocity invalidate the results. I mean we're not talking nuclear physics here.

Brister was a great shot and shotgun experimenter but he didn't have the testing equipment available today and his deductions don't all stand up to modern testing. I first read his book about 35 years ago. I met him once while hunting pheasants and sharps near Lewistown, Mt. Nice guy.

BTW, it ain't just choke. Otherwise a 1 oz load in a 28 ga would be just as effective as a 1 oz load in a 12. T'ain't so.

Sorry, but I disagree. If velocities are the same, I believe a 1oz load in a 28 ga IS just as effective as a 1oz load in a 12, or for that matter a 1oz load in a 20ga or a 16ga. But there is a big difference in shootability - recoil, weight, etc. If choked accordingly, 225 shot pellets of #6 at 1200fps is the same regardless of the barrel it just left.

However, there would be a difference if the 1oz 28ga load was going 1150fps and the 1oz 12ga load was going 1200fps. That is why I objected to the comparisons done by Field & Stream.

Your "theory" can be quickly disproven on the clay pigeon range, let's back up to about a 50 yard target and shoot a 1 oz 28 against a 1 oz 12 load. It can also be quickly disproven at a patterning board.

Why....because of shot column length, and setback deformation?

If your theory was correct, then one should be able to get the same shot percentages in a 30" circle using the tightest practicable choke. It is really no contest. I have several tightly choked 12s that can deliver over 80% patterns at 40 yards using best quality loads. Let me know when you can do that with a 28. I'm not knocking the great 28, but facts are facts.

Not convinced.

Oh well.....

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

I have several tightly choked 12s that can deliver over 80% patterns at 40 yards using best quality loads. Let me know when you can do that with a 28. I'm not knocking the great 28, but facts are facts.

Your 12s are putting 80% of the shot in a 30" circle at 40 yards because the choke you are using was designed to do that. If you choked the 28ga adequately to do the same, it would, by definition do the same.

What are the advantages of 12ga over 28ga? Well, for one thing, most trap, pheasant, duck, and geese shooters are shooting 1-1/8oz, 1-1/4oz, 1-1/2oz, and bigger loads. You would be hard pressed to fit those into a 2-3/4" 28ga shell and even harder pressed by the recoil.

quote:

Your 12s are putting 80% of the shot in a 30" circle at 40 yards because the choke you are using was designed to do that. If you choked the 28ga adequately to do the same, it would, by definition do the same.

Like I said, let me know when you find a 28 that can pattern 80% with 1 oz of lead shot at 40 yards. Don't hold your breath.

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:
If the gun is swinging when fired then the gun paints the cloud over the target in the same fashion as a moving can of spray paint sends a cloud of paint over an object.

Some very tiny dispersion of the shot pattern due to the velocity of the swinging muzzle would theoretically exist, but it would be so small as to be undetectable. Unless, of course, you swing your gun somewhere in excess of 100 MPH.

Stonecreek - Yes, undetectable. If the end of the barrel was swinging about 3 feet per second and a 1" column of shot exited at about 1200 ft/sec, then the lateral movement of the gun would be about 3.2 thousandths of an inch as the shot exited. From a 30" gun that would only amount to about 3-1/2" lateral dispersion at 30 yards, if I have my math straight.

I was attempting to make an easily visualized analogy. When "spraying" birds the object (the bird) is moving and the sprayer (the gun) is, for all practical purposes, stationary. As opposed to painting an object, where the spray can is moving and the object is stationary. But again, spraying birds was just an analogy. Maybe there is a better one.

I've been a fan of the 28GA since the 60's. Ballistic speaking it is one of the most effective small bore shot gun with a high MV.
I have hunted most upland birds with my guns and never had a wounded bird.
I've broken many a clay target as well.
You do have to learn how to shoot the '28.
As with any shotgun.Your either on or not.

quote:

Originally posted by Rapidrob:

I have hunted most upland birds with my guns and never had a wounded bird.

Really? What an extraordinary statement.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

Originally posted by Grenadier:

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I disagree that the minor differences in velocity invalidate the results. I mean we're not talking nuclear physics here.

Brister was a great shot and shotgun experimenter but he didn't have the testing equipment available today and his deductions don't all stand up to modern testing. I first read his book about 35 years ago. I met him once while hunting pheasants and sharps near Lewistown, Mt. Nice guy.

BTW, it ain't just choke. Otherwise a 1 oz load in a 28 ga would be just as effective as a 1 oz load in a 12. T'ain't so.

Sorry, but I disagree. If velocities are the same, I believe a 1oz load in a 28 ga IS just as effective as a 1oz load in a 12, or for that matter a 1oz load in a 20ga or a 16ga. But there is a big difference in shootability - recoil, weight, etc. If choked accordingly, 225 shot pellets of #6 at 1200fps is the same regardless of the barrel it just left.

However, there would be a difference if the 1oz 28ga load was going 1150fps and the 1oz 12ga load was going 1200fps. That is why I objected to the comparisons done by Field & Stream.

Your "theory" can be quickly disproven on the clay pigeon range, let's back up to about a 50 yard target and shoot a 1 oz 28 against a 1 oz 12 load. It can also be quickly disproven at a patterning board.

Why....because of shot column length, and setback deformation?

If your theory was correct, then one should be able to get the same shot percentages in a 30" circle using the tightest practicable choke. It is really no contest. I have several tightly choked 12s that can deliver over 80% patterns at 40 yards using best quality loads. Let me know when you can do that with a 28. I'm not knocking the great 28, but facts are facts.

Shot string is real. I used to be a pretty fair competitive trap shooter, I could stand on the sidewalk, which was 20 yards past the 27 yardline and break targets easily....till I got the hard right or left target, and it couldn't be done, because of shot string. 1/4 angles and straightaways got smoked. The 28 isn't equal, but I can for darn sure kill wild SD pheasants with my 5-pound Uggy and 1 0z of 5's or 6's.

Just wondering where case length fits in here? I can load from 24g to 35g loads in a case lenth of 23/4". What I feel is optimal in 12ga is probably a 28g load but thats me...

A few friends and I had RST load 1 oz 28ga 5s and 6s at 1200 fps. An ounce is just fine for pheasants.

I played with the 1 oz. loads a bit when I had a relatively heavy 28 ga o/u. They worked ok but I really couldn't see much advantage over the 3/4 oz loads. Now that I have a light double I wouldn't think about using them. Too much abuse to the gun and the shooter. If I need 1 oz I grab the 12 ga.
C.G.B.

quote:

Originally posted by Rapidrob:
I've been a fan of the 28GA since the 60's. Ballistic speaking it is one of the most effective small bore shot gun with a high MV.
I have hunted most upland birds with my guns and never had a wounded bird.
I've broken many a clay target as well.
You do have to learn how to shoot the '28.
As with any shotgun.Your either on or not.

Wow. My guess is you have only shot 5 or 6 birds to haven’t ever wounded one.
From all my reading the 28ga patterns better that the other gauges. I’ve shoot a lot of trap with a 28ga and able to dust the birds better than the guys with 12’s.