Approaching 60.

Damn close, frankly. Just about the time the snow falls this fall I'll be there.

As for field work, I'm comfortable with what I already have for both pheasants and quail. For the purpose of this thread, it doesn't matter what they are. They shoot. And they kill birds.

But....

I'm moving into the phase of shotgunning (and life) where it will be more clays than birds. It's looking like a balance of trap, skeet, and sporting clays. And a lot of 5 stand along the way.

About 5000 rounds a year, I'd say.

Budget is +/- $10,000.

Assuming I can get properly fitted, what do I do?

Krieghoff? Blazer? Some other brand?

Looking to find a "soul mate" that will stay with me until I'm done.

What say you?

TWL,

That's a HIGHLY individualistic choice. The phrase one man's meat is another man's poison is more true nowhere else besides shotgunning. Since you want to shoot all the clay target sports, an O/U is the defininte choice here, though. If you just wanted to shoot trap (like me), it would be easy for me to say go with a Ljutic, because I've had very good luck with several, they very rarely break down, and you'll see very few people that have Ljutics that don't shoot them well. However, even if this was your dilemma, it might not be the right answer for you. If I were you, I would scour the clay target ranges from now til you buy the shotgun trying every brand you can try. Within the past 2 months, a friend of mine (both members of our state trapshooting teams) had a bunch of friends that shot Kolars so we decided to try them since our friends were shooting them better than anything else they had before. We couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with either of them. I'm not saying that Kolars aren't good guns, but for me and my friend they were not (BTW- if you decide to get a Kolar, I'm still trying to get rid of mine!). Anyway, when you see a Kreighoff, Blazer, Perazzi, Kolar, Beretta (preferably a DT-10), or whatever tickles your fancy, ask the owner if you can try a few shots with it. Any gun that you have fitted to you will feel nice, but only some guns will feel alive in your hands, and the only test for that is to throw them to your shoulder and shoot a few clays with them. Sorry this post doesn't help much, but that is the case, you just have to get out there and shoot everything you can. If I were looking for an all-around shotgun for everything, I'd picked a Perazzi MX-8 with lightweight 32" barrels, but that doesn't mean that would be a good choice for you. The only good thing about this is...the shopping is the best part!

quote:

I'm moving into the phase of shotgunning (and life) where it will be more clays than birds. It's looking like a balance of trap, skeet, and sporting clays. And a lot of 5 stand along the way.

TW,

A great response by Justin.

quote:

That's a HIGHLY individualistic choice.

I'm sorta right where you are; 'cept my financial Book-Ends are more constrained.

I've worn out several shotguns, both 12's & 20's and would have to suggest that if your new aquisition is gonna take the religeous pounding the Clay Sports seem to inflict on a shotgun then I would definately look at a shotgun that was purpose designed for the stresses of daily & weekly Clays use.

Blaser, Ljutic, Perazzi, Kolar, Kreighoff all shotguns designed for the Clays circuits and afford the long-term reliability you require (I wish you every success at attempting to wear one out!).

After almsot 40 years of shooting 2-3 days a week I'm still using three Remington 3200's (Skeet, Trap & a modified Trap for Sporting Clays). They're not everyone's Cup of Tea but those shotguns were manufactured to take a pounding. Sorta the original shotgun "Battleship" not long in the ballét or quick turn arena but dependable as hell and you get used to the heft.

quote:

Assuming I can get properly fitted, what do I do?

One highly regarded German expert claims only a person who has shot extensively has the ability to have himself fitted for a shotgun stock since your own personal preferences & shooting style have to be communicated to the stockist; the "One Size fits Most" syndrome which a beginner, novice or mid-term shooter doesn't possess.

Other than the vast majority of heavy hitting European specialized International Trap & Skeet shooters use Perazzi; the Blaser F3's are starting to dominate the 5-Stand & Sporting Clays circuits here in Europe due to their modular system, with stocks, barrel sets & chokes a reliable interchangable fit.

quote:

The only good thing about this is...the shopping is the best part!

Good Luck & Have Fun!

You really can buy two good guns for your budget, which, IMO, might be a better option. In particular, trap is pretty specialized and most singles shooters use a single barrel. True you can get a single barrel add on, but if you plan on using that gun for clays, skeet, trap, you'll forever be fiddling with your adjustable stock (an absolute necessity if you're trying to make one shotgun do multiple target game shooting tasks) (BTW I hate the contraptions, IMO figure our what stock dimensions work for you at a particular game and stick with them). I would suggest that you should strongly consider a "combo" gun set for trap and buy another O/U for the other games......as has already been suggested try, try, try, a bunch of guns before laying your money out. I'd also strongly recommend that you consider buying used while trying to pick out your personal winning combination, that way you can trade in for less of a loss and you won't be mentally "married" to a gun for financial reasons. BUT once you find "IT", don't keep trading.

Justin gave some great advice.......my thoughts, and these are admittedly somewhat antiquated, I'd strongly consider a Perazzi for my "all around" gun and look for single barrel that works for you. Perazzis don't have the overwhelming popularity today that they once did, but they are built to take a licking and keep on ticking.

Third thought, don't let your ego get in the way of your shooting.....if a Browning BT99 works well for your single barrel gun, then use it. Same thing for a Rem 3200 which are somewhat antiquated now but keep on shooting. A $50,000 Famars can easily be beaten by a $500 Remington 1100 given a better shot handling the latter. I've seen it many times. True, like trophy wives, men of "an age" like to show off with nice guns, and there's nothing wrong with that (it's also a helluva lot cheaper habit than trophy wives and they have more resale value) but remember, the price of the gun is not what makes it work for you. It has to be "right" and only you can call that feeling.

Fourth thought, try a bunch of guns, but once you find one that "works" for you, settle in with it and shoot it for at least a year......there are dozens of stories around ANY gun club of "I had a great gun, shot it well, but had a few bad rounds, and sold it. Worst mistake I ever made....."

Fifth thought, when handling a gun for clay shooting, remember (again within reason) WEIGHT is your friend. It reduces recoil affects on your shoulders. A 7 pounder (and I'm strictly talking about target guns now) may feel more "alive" when you first pick it up but it will beat you to death shooting 300 shots or more a day.

Finally, and I'm a firm believer in this, it ain't the gun (within reason), it's the shooter. If you're having a bad day, take a break, or whatever, don't blame the gun. Almost any great shot can beat an average shot using a broom stick that goes bang........

BTW, and I'm really going against the traditional wisdom here, that "properly fitted" thing is more whisp that whisky......true one needs a gun that will help not hurt, but unless you've got a fairly unusual body configuration, the "normal" American dimensions work well for most people....after adjusting LOP to fit your style. This does not apply to trap shooting which generally speaking requires a higher comb to get a higher pattern.....

Gerry's observation that it takes an experienced shooter to recognize what a well fitted stock is for his style is spot on......

Get something that feels "right" to you, shoot a few thousand rounds with it and you may want a slight change or you may not.......remember rule #1, it ain't the gun, it's the shooter.

I'm not suggesting that a well fitted gun is not a benefit to any shooter, it certainly is, but it ain't the real answer to winning matches, that's between your ears, believe it or not. Shooting a shotgun well is probably 90 or 95% a physical activity, but that otherMENTAL 5 or 10% is THE TOTAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN WINNING AND BEING FIRMLY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE PACK. Learn to control yourself and you'll be a winner.

quote:

Finally, and I'm a firm believer in this, it ain't the gun (within reason), it's the shooter. If you're having a bad day, take a break, or whatever, don't blame the gun. Almost any great shot can beat an average shot using a broom stick that goes bang........

Some real Pearls of Wisdom here....

Gato,

The more you write the sorrier I am that a schedule conflict got in the way of us hooking up to have a few Beers when you stopped over in FKT last year - woulda been a lively conversation, I'm sure.

Gerry:

Hopefully the next time, and I'll buy the bier......

Wow. Excellent insight and advice gentlemen. Interesting points to think about. The fun will be in the search. Thank you again.

quote:

Hopefully the next time, and I'll buy the bier...... beer

Gee! Wow!......as soon as possible; I LOVE free Bier.



As a matter-of-fact it's Happy Hour time in The Fatherland right about now and I'm gonna Sign-Off to go have a coupla Cold Ones at the local Pub (Gasthaus)!

TWL,

Some more great responses by everyone. Something else I would like to point out, if you're shooting ALL clay target games, you probably aren't going to be great at all of them. The sports are much more competitive today than in years past, so don't expect to be a champion, just have some fun and try hard if you would like to win, but don't let it make or break your experiences. Another thing, the lighter the gun doesn't mean that it will be more lively in your hands, that's all about balance. If a gun is too light in the front, you'll whip past the targets. Too heavy, and you might not be able to catch up with some harder angles. That's the case if we're talking about a 7-pound sporting clays gun or a 10-pound trap gun. The most important thing is to get a gun that shoots where you look, if you're more or less restricted to shopping in gun stores instead of the range, the gun should go to any point on the wall you look out almost effortlessly. The guys are right about the gun fitting, too, it won't benefit a new shooter (for clay targets) as a more experienced one. However, a badly fitting stock will hurt everyone, if not in their shoulder and face, then in their scores. The problem I have with a lot of gun fitters, they will fit you to THEIR style of shooting, not yours. For instance, some people like a slightly longer or shorter length of pull, and some fitters don't like to hear that. They are the experts, but they aren't paying for the job or shooting the gun once the job is done, either. If I had to go to someone for a fitting right now, I would pick Dennis Devault, no doubt about it, but that's because his fittings fit my style, more of an upright, head's up stance. I'm a trapshooter, though, and that's not as popular with sporting clays and 5-stand shooters. So, develop your own style and then shop around for a gun and fitter. All good advice given so far, you're a lucky guy to have the problem!

Roger on understanding the "jack of all trades, master of none" concept with multiple games. It's rare for a guy to be good at mulitple games. And I understand too that gun fitters come with their individual bias. It'd be hard not to.

The more I think of it, getting "fitted" is not a consideration. I shoot in a variety of weather conditions requiring a variety of clothing.

I'm really in it for the simple enjoyment of shooting as well as for the social aspects. I only just returned to the sporting shotgun 5 years ago, after almost 35 years with the tactical shotgun. It was not an easy transition. My first season was not a pretty one. I have found that some tactical techniques are transferable to the sporting clays and 5 stand games, but not necessarily to trap & skeet. But it's been great fun and I'm back in the saddle with a sporting gun. My current gun I am looking to upgrade BTW is a Beretta 687 SPII.

TWL:

I'm probably stating the obvious here, but I've had a lot of trouble teaching some adult males over the years to be decent shotgun shots. Besides the well known "Daniel Boone" factor (My Daddy was a great shot, I've inherited his genes, who are you to tell me I'm standing wrong?) it was often the result of their being trained rifle or pistol shots. It is hard to get the concept across to trained AIMERS that you have to point and shoot a shotgun when it looks and feels right, there is no "PERFECT HOLD", the shooter has to accept that good is good enough.....that is that you can't think something like "Well, I'm on station 4 and based on my swing speed I need 51 3/4 inches of lead". That won't work, just get what looks like 4 feet plus and keep swinging.

To repeat myself, shotgunning, which, according to Brister may be a science, is NOT an exact science, there's more art than science. A good shot doesn't AIM a shotgun, he points it.

In addition, I will point out that shotgunning is mostly a set of reflexes which you have built up. It is an absolute physiological fact that thinking about the process while performing a reflex action SLOWS the process down. Swing=process=thinking=slowed down=miss behind....get it?

I want to be clear these are general observations and probably don't apply to you, but if they do, now you can self-correct. Finally, with all due respect to the trap shooters, I were one , they tend to aim more than most because the gun movement in trap is so limited.

BTW I want to add one tip here that cost me years of shotgunning and thousands of dollars to figure out.......Hi 2 in skeet is often considered the most difficult target, there are two main reasons for this, plus gun positioning, one is shooter inattention....when you call for the bird, be ready, don't be thinking "I need 2 feet and swinging, my feet are a bit off, etc." be concentrating on the bird coming out when you say "pull" or whatever (Hi 2 is like a train leaving a railroad station, if you miss the start, you have a very hard time catching up)....I like a slight gun position back towards the house from perpendicular, but this will vary with the shooter, his reflexes, etc, in fact, since skeet bored me to death shot the regular way, I always shoot it international style with a low gun these days.......the second reason that many good shots miss the occasional hi 2 is the one that I "discovered".....about the time most shooters shoot which is right at or just past the center pt of the field, the target has lost it's initial momentum and is starting to drop more rapidly or "curl off", shooters tend to swing in straight lines, so they're following the initial trajectory as the target curls slightly beneath their swing.......the top of the target is the hardest part to break....this is why good shootes sometimes get more chippy targets and the occasional miss on Hi 2.....start your swing a tad under the line of the target and stay with it, or put another way, have the target, a la Italian style sitting well on top of your gun barrel as you swing. As an real skeet shooter knows, a dropped target at a tournament of any size puts you in the also rans so each target is a personal mental challenge. In some ways skeet requires more shooter mental self control than any of the other major clays sports because it is so easy, (not counting the .410). Every half way decent skeet shooter can easily break ANY skeet target ALMOST ALL the time, so they get lackadaisical and have mental lapses. The good shooters make each target a mental challenge and break them ALL the time. Hope this helps someone.

Here's a "Battleship" Shotgun.

Remington 3200 Skeet 28" tubes.

Stock started life as a Fajen Black/Black Laminated outside 75% - inside 98%. I spent the entire winter filing, hacking, scraping & sanding. If I'd a had to pay a Craftsman for the hours spent it would of cost as much as a Home. I'll never do this again.

Buttstock is completely hollowed-out as laminate is very heavy.

Can't complain though, like Frank Sinatra I "Did it My Way". Fits me perfectly - Why not; I fit it to me?

Gatogordo:
Thank you for taking the time to draft such a response. I checked my ego several decades ago. Always willing to learn from those more skilled and experienced.
Best......Tom

quote:

Originally posted by Gerry:
Here's a "Battleship" Shotgun.

Remington 3200 Skeet 28" tubes.

Stock started life as a Fajen Black/Black Laminated outside 75% - inside 98%. I spent the entire winter filing, hacking, scraping & sanding. If I'd a had to pay a Craftsman for the hours spent it would of cost as much as a Home. I'll never do this again.

Buttstock is completely hollowed-out as laminate is very heavy.

Can't complain though, like Frank Sinatra I "Did it My Way". Fits me perfectly - Why not; I fit it to me?

Sexy gun!

Gerry,

Is that stock for a left-hander? Looks like the grip might be whittled away a bit for one, either way, that's an interesting grip.