I have a Savage in 270 cal. I would like to get a suppressor for it. I use Federal Premium, factory hunting loads with about 3046 fps, according to my chrony. I have had 3/8" - 3/4" groups.


Will a suppressor affect my accuracy? How much noise reduction could I expect? I have looked at Liberty Suppressor's and Gemtech's web sites.

Any comments and recommendations would be appreciated.

The suppressor will probably affect your accuracy because it changes your barrel harmonics.

Sound reduction at the muzzle will depend on the suppressor you attach; contact the manufacturer(s) for noise reduction estimates. (FYI, there are sound meter apps for smartphones; download and install one, place the phone on the bench just behind your muzzle, and fire a few rounds. Tell the manufacturer the average dB reading.)

There will be no noise reduction for the bullet itself since it is traveling at ~Mach 3.

George

Thanks George. I guess I knew it would affect accuracy, but was hoping more for point of impact than groups. If I get one, I may have to try other ammo or hand load, which is what I don't really want to do. I will talk with several manufacturers and get some input from them on their specific products. If I get one I will post the results.

Every rifle is an individual; there is no way to predict the effect on POI a suppressor will have.

George

Both my .223 and my .22 lr group better with the suppressors in place, but they do shift poi a little.

G'Day Fella's,

338zmag, there is a very good chance, that a suppressor may actually improve the accuracy of your rifle!

Normally when the bullet exits the muzzle, the propellant gas following it can have some effect on the stability of the bullet in flight. Depending on the design of the suppressor you use, the propellant gas is usually held back and has less of an opportunity, to effect the bullets initial flight once it has exited the barrel.

I design and manufacture number of shooting related products, including suppressors/Cans and I have noticed the above positive effect, on many occasions!

Hope that helps

Doh!
Homer

mmassey338,

Thanks for the report. I'm liking this idea even more.

HomerOz,

That gives me more motivation to pursue a suppressor.

I will update as I go through the process.

Seems every rifle/suppressor combination is a bit of it's own rule.

I have a .308 Savage that has been refit with a Douglas 1:10 22" barrel. Barrel was threaded by someone who REALLY knows what he is doing. My .308 caliber SAS Titanium Arbiter can does not change the impact point of 175 gr SMK handloads.

The groups might have improved just a little, the rifle shoots that load very well <<1 Moa so it's really hard to tell much of a change.

Thanks to all for the responses. I am looking into setting up a trust for the suppressor purchase. There is an attorney in Florida who specializes in NFA trust and since I am a resident of Florida, I plan to contact him soon.

The suppressor at the top of my list is the Thunder Beast 30P-1. It has excellent reviews and I have also seen (on You Tube) the guys at Snipers Hide do some comparison tests and it did very well.

The process is a pain, but without one I probably won't shoot anything louder than a 223. I will keep updating as I continue through this process.

I'm not very knowledgeable about buying suppressors.....why would you set up a trust rather than just paying the $200 Tax?

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I'm not very knowledgeable about buying suppressors.....why would you set up a trust rather than just paying the $200 Tax?

Three reasons:

No CLEO signature needed.

No fingerprints needed.

NFA items in the trust pass to the beneficiary without an additional $200 tax. The trust pays the $200 tax per NFA item once.

George

Ah so, "I see", said the blind man.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Sound reduction at the muzzle will depend on the suppressor you attach; contact the manufacturer(s) for noise reduction estimates. (FYI, there are sound meter apps for smartphones; download and install one, place the phone on the bench just behind your muzzle, and fire a few rounds. Tell the manufacturer the average dB reading.)

This would be a waste of time and effort. Gunfire noise is of a very short duration. The meters and microphones used by the industry to determine noise levels of firearms and the effectiveness of silencers need a 20 microsecond or less response time to accurately record the intensity of the noise. They cost several thousand dollars.

Using anything else especially the cheap microphone on a cell phone will show a noise level that is way too low.

Ranb

My 308 has a palma contour/26 inches; probably not the best contour to resist POI change. I would try straight taper and 20" if I bought it new. POI moves about 3" with the suppressor. Groups size stays exactly the same with or without. I'm shooting 168 gr Sierra MKs and 168 gr Berger VLDs under Varget. MV of about 2830.

quote:

NFA items in the trust pass to the beneficiary without an additional $200 tax. The trust pays the $200 tax per NFA item once.

So does an item if it is not in a trust.

M16,
If you buy a class 3 item, and then you die, and leave it to your son, he will pay a $200 transfer. The trust, or a corporation, will survive, and there is no transfer.

If you are a Corporation in the State of Texas and buy your suppressor through your corporation, the dealer fill out the paper work for the transfer. with your corporation info. You attach a copy of the corporation filing with the Texas Secretary of State as a LLC/LLP. That's it! You don't need any other approvals other than the BATFE.

I go to the TSOS website and request a current "Statement of Fact". This says that your corporation is in existence on the day you file.
I don't know if it helps or not, but that's my way!
Corporation/Trust is the only way to go!

quote:

Originally posted by mmassey338:
M16,
If you buy a class 3 item, and then you die, and leave it to your son, he will pay a $200 transfer. The trust, or a corporation, will survive, and there is no transfer.

That is simply not true. If you die and will your class 3 items to someone they are passed on tax free. Here is a link to the form.


http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-3.pdf

The correct form is Form 5.

A properly formed trust for NFA/firearm purposes has many distinct advantages:
[list]

Multiple possessors in the form of co-trustees

No fingerprinting or photographs needed

No CLEO sign off

Faster processing time than an individual application (no CLEO signoff delay)

Some limited liability protection of the trust assets (they are owned by the trust, not an individual)

Potentially low cost to create

No annual fees like a Corporation or Limited Liability Company

Anonymity (no reporting or registering)

Upon death of the Settlor/Trustor, the trust property transfers to the beneficiaries via a tax-free transfer on a Form 5

George

I went to a suppressor demo shoot and was amazed at the noise reduction when standing next to the shooter. However, when shooting the suppressed rifle, which was a Remington 308, it was considerably louder. Is that the norm? It was an AAC can.

I have found that an SAS Ti Arbiter 30 cal can does make supersonic 6,8 and .308 Win hearing safe. Also does with a 20" 5.56.

I suspect the Arbiter is a bit better at sound reduction than the AAC cans.

5.56 cans used on shorter rifles will help the sound signature considerably ... but not to the level of hearing safe. Suppressing a 10.5 to 14.5" 5.56 is just difficult! Cans used on short barreled 5.56 rifles will see a lot of erosion of the blast baffles even if they are made of inconel. (Read "expensive can")

A decent can, reduces the powderblast by 25-35dB in the frequence area of 10-1200Hz, that is the frequencearea created by the powderblast.
A reduction of 30dB reduces the soundpresure by 1000 times.
The hearing damages is almost liniary to the soundpresure.
A pair of good muffs reduces the noise in the lowfrequent area 10-1200Hz by only 12 - 16 dB. This is only a reduction in soundpresure from 16 - 32 times.

Manny rifleshooters has hearing reductions from 50-90% on the ear pointing towards the muzzle while shooting. This reduction is often in the frequensarea from 2500-4500Hz (s f c g )
The hearing reduction on the opposit ear is often from 15 - 35%
The difference in measured sound is often only 3-4dB on those 2 ears.
So there is indications that an increase in measured sound of 3-4dB seems to double the hearingdamage

Trigger tate how much varget. I'm currently using 46 grns.

quote:

Originally posted by 338zmag:
I have a Savage in 270 cal. I would like to get a suppressor for it. I use Federal Premium, factory hunting loads with about 3046 fps, according to my chrony. I have had 3/8" - 3/4" groups.


Will a suppressor affect my accuracy? How much noise reduction could I expect? I have looked at Liberty Suppressor's and Gemtech's web sites.

Any comments and recommendations would be appreciated.

I have a suppressor for each of my rifles, biggest currently is a 25-06.

Ive not found that the group size is changed to any noticeable degree as long as the can is correctly fitted. The poa does change but as I always use the rifles with the cans on it makes no odds. There is no loss of zero after taking the suppressor off and refitting it.

Sound reduction is such that i dont wear hearing protection at all, i find not wearing hear cans lets me hear a lot more of what is going on around me.

Ive tried an assortment of differing designs and generally they have all performed well. The perceived difference in noise level to the shooter is negligible.

M16, the form 5320 you referenced transfers the item to an ffl.

quote:

Originally posted by mmassey338:
M16,
If you buy a class 3 item, and then you die, and leave it to your son, he will pay a $200 transfer. The trust, or a corporation, will survive, and there is no transfer.

Actually, heirs may receive NFA items Tax exempt even without having a previously created NFA Trust

quote:

Originally posted by 338zmag:
I have a Savage in 270 cal. I would like to get a suppressor for it. I use Federal Premium, factory hunting loads with about 3046 fps, according to my chrony. I have had 3/8" - 3/4" groups.


Will a suppressor affect my accuracy? How much noise reduction could I expect? I have looked at Liberty Suppressor's and Gemtech's web sites.

Any comments and recommendations would be appreciated.

Over a thirty year time frame and numerous suppressed weapons-
I have had two rifles that the groups did not shrink with suppressors-
POI does typically change-
some weapons greater than others

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:

NFA items in the trust pass to the beneficiary without an additional $200 tax. The trust pays the $200 tax per NFA item once.

George

Inheritance of NFA items is also tax free.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
My 308 has a palma contour/26 inches; probably not the best contour to resist POI change. I would try straight taper and 20" if I bought it new. POI moves about 3" with the suppressor. Groups size stays exactly the same with or without. I'm shooting 168 gr Sierra MKs and 168 gr Berger VLDs under Varget. MV of about 2830.

That is a lot of POI shift on a precision rifle. A good can will be less than an inch, the best can be a fraction of that on a good precision rifle with good ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
My 308 has a palma contour/26 inches; probably not the best contour to resist POI change. I would try straight taper and 20" if I bought it new. POI moves about 3" with the suppressor. Groups size stays exactly the same with or without. I'm shooting 168 gr Sierra MKs and 168 gr Berger VLDs under Varget. MV of about 2830.

That is a lot of POI shift on a precision rifle. A good can will be less than an inch, the best can be a fraction of that on a good precision rifle with good ammo.

Because I don't know, I'm curios as to how the "quality" of the can is directly related to the POI shift.

Your implication is that the better the "quality" of the can, the less it shift POI.

How do you define "quality" in this respect?

I would think any weight added to the muzzle would change the harmonics of the barrel and would relate to a POI shift... maybe I'm wrong?

Quality matters but it's more than just quality, it's choices that are made in the design phase. Some things, like mount design or asymmetrical baffles, can be made for a reason but negatively impact accuracy or POI. Weight certainly matters.

Where quality comes into play is in concentricity. For best performance you want ever aperture in the can to be aligned perfectly with the bullet leaving the bore. Your threads need to be perfect, and the threads on the can. With QD mounts this is more difficult, as you have several surfaces to keep perfectly in alignment. This is one reason why the classic choice in precision cans is a thread on.

Some manufacturers care more about POI shift than others. AAC is notoriously indifferent to it, and they can have 3+ inches of shit on average on an M4. Surefire tries to have less than one. Companies like SAS and Thunderbeast Arms make efforts to have no POI shift, and Zak at Thunderbeast told me he doesn't change his dope even .1 MRAD from unsuppressed to suppressed. That would be my choice in a precision rifle.

quote:

Ways to start a fight on AR:
Bolt vs. double rifle
One trigger or two on doubles?
Front or rear trigger first?
Archery for DG?
Is African carry safe?
Is it ok to shoot from the truck?
Mention Mark Sullivan

You forgot to mention:

45/70 is a great buffalo round...
800 yard hunting shots with Matchking bullets...

I'm waiting on the tax stamp for a can for my 300 Blackout. I know it will shift the POI, but once the correction is made, then it won't matter, because the can will be dedicated to that rifle.

Normally the POI shifts down and left. Or at least in my experience.

Regarding POI shift, think this:
Take a looong skinny fishing rod and dangle a 1Oz weight at the tip. Now take a 5Oz weight.
Now it's bending right?
Then take a broom stick and dangle that same 5Oz weight, no bend.

So in short:
Long thin barrel and heavy can = some bend.
Short/fat barrel and whatever can = slight to none bend.