I want to read some practical info regarding suppressed rifles. So, this thread is intended to be a discussion, re the following:

I've watched some videos on You Tube. My only real experience with suppressors is that some friends let me shoot theirs at the range. I shot a 45acp and a 308 suppressed. The 308 was with full loads.

On You Tube it's difficult to get real perspective on just how little or much noise there is from the shot. I do have some perspective of what to expect from a 308 and 45acp.

I've seen the referrals here to other forums, and didn't find much help there, so this discussion is for this forum. Surely someone(s) here knows about this noise thingy.

I'm interested in some cartridge for hunting such critters as hogs, but not just any cartridge. I would like a rather quiet report, yet the cartridge produce enough thump to really do the job.

There has been discussion of how a 45 cal rifle will not be really quite, even sub-sonic, due to the diameter of the bullet and amount of gas, etc. Yet I've seen some videos of the 510 Whisper that seemed to be really quite. I've shot the 45 acp and it's reasonably quiet. Obviously 45 cal or larger can be relatively quiet, so why the justification of noise? Is it due to poor construction of the suppressor, or what?

There is the 458 SOCOM for comparison. It's made to be used suppressed and subsonic, as well as full loads too. I am curious just how quite the 458 Socom really is, but I don't know anyone with one, and can't get a straight answer online. I know the 458 SOCOM is enough cartridge, but the question is anything really gained by using it subsonic with an expensive suppressor? To my thinking, if it's not ever going to be quiet, why bother with a suppressor at all?

Perhaps the 450 Bushmaster is the answer? http://www.qsmsilencers.com/45...pressor%20stats.html

Another thing I'm curious about is the 7.62x39, shooting a 180 or perhaps 200gr bullet, sub-sonic, and whether it will be sufficient for hogs, say under 75 yds, and how quite to expect the report to be. In comparison, for example, would it be better to use a rifle in 45acp, and just be very careful about the range.

In other words, in your opinion, is something like a 45 acp rifle, about the right balance in the following factors, and if it can be beat, then with what?

Economical - both the rifle and the ammo

Ease of obtaining sub-sonic ammo. (can't get much easier than the 45acp)

Ease of noise suppression

Cans readily available, at reasonable prices (not custom made in other words)

Adequate thump to 50 yds to take hogs readily (I'm actually not sure the 45 acp is adequate, even at the muzzel)

Perhaps other factors

KB

To reduce noise you must minimize powder charge, make the silencer long and large, minimize the bore size and use a bolt action lever action or single shot.

I think a 45 acp is not a good round for hogs. The 300 BLK has better accuracy, penetration and power as it is at least 1000 fps in the subsonic loadings where as the 45 acp is 850 fps in the pistol and about 950 fps in a carbine.

Unless you can load your own ammo, you are going to have to live with louder supersonic loads or small subsonic stuff like the 45 acp and 300 BLK

Ranb

Thanks ranb40.

I expect to handload whatever I shoot, except perhaps if the choice is the 45 acp.

When I had a 7.62x39, I loaded some rounds using 180 gr RN bullets and SR 4759 powder, to get them subsonic. They were fun to shoot, and mild report. I didn't run them through a suppressor, but I wondered what that would be like. Being a smaller case than the 308, perhaps the 7.62x39 would achieve subsonic with less powder.

I still like the idea of a heavy 45 cal, subsonic. In a case the size of the .458 SOCOM, fast powder would do the trick, probably SR 4759.

Another thing I'm wondering about ---- you say use a bolt action, etc. So, I'm thinking that you are saying that the working of the action for a simi-auto is noise? That 458 SOCOM sure seems tempting. I'm wondering if a guy is really worried about the action noise, maybe there is a way to set the AR to not eject, except manually, for use with subsonic loads.

KB

From what I have read, the suppressed noise level at the shooter's ear for an AR-15 in 5.56 is louder than a bolt gun in 308, although the muzzle noise (and downrange noise) of the 308 is greater than the 5.56.

If you are going to load your own, then you can do much better than the 30 caliber subsonics.
The 338 whisper, 458 socom will take down a hog, the 510 will take hogzilla with ease. The 510 whisper brass is hard to get unless you turn it yourself from 338 lapua or buy it from SSK at $4 each.

My 458 ar-15 is rather loud, but that is the fault of the short can I made for it. Get a good can that is at least 10" long and it should be ok. There are gas ports that shut off; I have one on my 300 whisper SSK AR-15 upper. It reduces noise significantly, but then I never shut it off because then it is just a straight pull bolt gun.

Ranb

The 300 BLK pushing 220 SMKs at 1025 fps MV (8.6 gr 2400 CCI 400 out of a 16" bbl) is very quiet when used with a 30 cal SAS Ti Arbiter can.

Seems not much if any louder than an Omega baffled can on a 22 LR pistol shooting CCI Standard velocity ammo.

To the shooter, the loudest sounds are the movement of the bolt and spring in the SOPMOD stock of an AR15 and the spent bouncing about.

Haven't had the opportunity yet to hunt piggies with it, but it certainly delivered a DRT at 65 yards with a neck shot to a big doe this year. Projectile exited broadside as has been noted by some others.

Here are some interesting videos:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...-sag&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ature=endscreen&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEQoXmoYVfo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmZ-SBBlm2I

Yes, the 510 Whisper looks interesting, and no doubt a performer at subsonic. It is some trouble though, requiring special brass, probably hand made, heavy cast bullets which create their own problems in making or acquiring, and a special rifle setup. There are feeding issues, bolt face, and yet to be discovered issues.

So, that's why the 458 SOCOM looks so interesting. The more I think about it, the more I want an AR platform, to use with a variety of uppers. It's just a natural. Thanks for the info that it can be used with manual ejection. Perhaps that solves some problem, precieved or real. Anyway, as complicated as dealing with the .458 SOCOM is, from a handloading view, it's still much simpler than dealing with a 510 whisper. Also, the .458 SOCOM can shoot a really heavy bullet, at the top end of subsonic velocity, which will pack some whack, even out to 125 yds or so. I can hunt hogs with that with all the assurance I need to know that it will do its job.

It's just a matter of getting it quiet.

Where I'm at right now is that I might as well get a crossbow. It's a lot cheaper, and quiet. I would rather have a rifle though.

KB

That 300 blackout seems really interesting. The energy shown for the 220gr subsonic seems a little low to me, for hogs. It's way under 1000 ft lbs.

The energy level of the Grendel full loads seems more appropriate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...mfu_in_order&list=UL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?l...n&NR=1&v=MHZRpGdhi9I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...Allk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ature=endscreen&NR=1

6.5 Grendel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9WgleABeBI

The 510 whisper can be simpler than the 458 socom if you use it in the Encore. There is no bolt or gas system to worry about. Surplus bullets are common in the USA and new match grade bullets (not needed at less than 200 yards). There are many molds available too. Your only problem is the brass and its cost.

If you go with the Sako action, then your only additional problem is the high cost of the action and re-barreling.

The only problem I had with my 458 socom was that the light 20 grain H110 charge for 405 grain jacketed and cast 500 grain bullets was too light to cycle the bolt carrier. I took the weights out of the buffer and cut down the spring and it functions properly now. I install the normal buffer and spring for the rare occasions I use supersonic loads.

AS the 458 has a 308 sized rim, you can rebarrel any rifle with .473 bolt face. Mag well modifications may be needed to feed properly though. A bolt gun 458 can be loaded hotter than with an AR and it will be much less noisy when shot subsonic.

I think 510 whisper is overkill for hogs, the 458 is better.

Ranb

Interesting analysis, ranb40. Let's continue.

Yes, the 510 is overkill, but in its own way, that's OK. I like to whack um harder than necessary, rather than underwhack um, and have them runn oft. I can see it being effective for some distance, (further than other options subsonic) but a guy would have to learn to shoot accounting for drop.

To my thinking the .458 SOCOM is for the AR, period... Trying to adapt it to a bolt action or single shot is a waste of time, IMO. I still think it would be fun to mess with in an AR 15. The brass appears to be single source. I would rather handload the .458 SOCOM than the 450 bushmaster or the 50 Beowulf. Also there is a broader selection of suitable bullets in .458, compared to .451 - .452 or .500. The Bushmaster seems to me to shoot pistol bullets - fast. The Beowulf is interesting because it can use heavy jacketed or cast bullets, 500gr +. It's my understanding that both the Beowulf and Bushmaster headspaces off the lip of the brass, where the .458 SOCOM uses the shoulder for headspace.

I should mention that the reason I'm talking big bore, subsonic, is for thump. The 30 Blackout is interesting, and the videos show it used on hogs, but the numbers just don't add up to an effective hog killing tool, IMO. There is no substitute for bore diameter, given equal velocity. A head or neck shot is iffy and not always practical, especially beyond about 40 yds. Besides, I just don't want to be limited to shooting a cartridge where I think that I have to head or neck shoot to be effective.

What it comes down to is there are tempting choices in 30 cal if one looks at noise suppression alone. The 220gr in the blackout is also tempting, but look at the energy numbers. The 220gr out of a Blackout is about half the energy at the muzzel as that produced from a good hot 44 mag pistol.

A 400 gr flatnose .458 Speer bullet at 1100fps is 1075 ft lbs at the muzzel, and 864 ft lbs at 100 yds.

A 500 gr cast .458 at 1100 fps is 1343 ft lbs at the muzzel and 1081 ft lbs at 100 yds, and 994 ft lbs at 150 yds.

The 500gr .458 bullet leaving the muzzel subsonic has more energy left at 200 yds, than the 220 gr 30 cal from a Blackout has at the muzzel. There is a big difference.

So, considering all the factors that I can think of, it comes down to two platforms - the AR or the Encore. The reason the bolt action is out is because of cost and finding a suitable cartridge. Also consider the weight and length of the finished rifle. The bolt action will be longer and heavier. The 458 Win Mag can easily be loaded subsonic, and would be my choice in a bolt action.

The AR is a good choice IMO, because the upper can be changed out easily to use other cartridges. Same is true of the Encore. The Encore has the advantage of less cost, and smaller, shorter package. Assume 16" to 16.5" barrel, plus the length of the can.

So, for a subsonic big bore, it boils down to 458 SOCOM or 45-70. Both have about the same case capacity. Brass is much easier to get for 45-70, and it's probably easier to load.

I already have a good Encore frame and stocks. Having a 45-70 barrel made with the right twist, threaded, at 16" long is not the major expense. It's the suppressor that costs a lot. I just don't want to spend $2,000 and find that it still makes too much noise, and I might as well have gotten a normal length barrel and shoot full loads without the can.

KB

I forgot about the 44 mag 300 grain bullets. I am working on one myself.

The 458 socom has a slightly smaller case capacity than the 45-70, but the key is twist, you need no slower than 1-14 for the 500 grain bullets. 450 socom brass is readily available from Starline.

You can find a 458 silencer here; http://www.sbrammunition.com/class3.html $450.

Contender barrels are also available in 45-70.

Ranb

Thanks for the info.

The other source I found for 45 cal suppressor is this, for a lot more cost:
http://www.awcsystech.com/prod...ressors/thundertrap/

At the $450 price I may be able to experiment with that one to see (hear ) what it can do.

I might start looking into what it takes to get the permit.

If I did a 45-70 barrel, it would be made by MGM. I checked with them, and they use Green Mountain blanks. A stainless 45-70, 16 1/4", 14" twist, threaded for suppressor, is $470. It would probably cost more, because I will want their scope base too. The barrel comes with a thread protector. I am much more confident with fit and finish with their barrels than any alternative I know of.

KB

No permit required, the dealer will give you the ATF form 4 so you can get it signed by the local sheriff as well as the form 5330.20. You will also need the passport sized photos and two fingerprint cards. If the cops do not have the right ones, then you can get them free of charge from the ATF.gov website. Send them all in with a personal check so that you know when it is cashed.

If you are shooting subsonic, then get a mil-dot scope and make a range card for it so that you can accurately hold over/under at ranges other than your zero.

Ranb

In Texas you can also form an NFA trust and skip all the individual registration hoopla. In the search for the quiet rifle I went as far as the Remington 700 EtronX electrically primed rifle. Mine is having an integral supressor fitted as it will be a dedicated night vision stalking rifle. I chose the 458 SOCOM a long time ago for the .308 case head and 500 to 700 grain 458 bullets that can be launch from a bolt gun without worrying over action function.

The one thing I can attest to even before I get to hunt with it is that there is no way to quiet the noise from the bullet impact on an animal like a big hog. It will startle you the first time. Makes ruminating over the quietest suppressor a moot point because that "thwap" will send everything nearby scurrying for cover.

If your suppressor is good enough to make your rifle hearing-safe, its really done all the good you need in the field.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
The one thing I can attest to even before I get to hunt with it is that there is no way to quiet the noise from the bullet impact on an animal like a big hog. It will startle you the first time. Makes ruminating over the quietest suppressor a moot point because that "thwap" will send everything nearby scurrying for cover.

I read the same thing about hunting hogs with the 300 whisper. They learned quickly that a bullet hitting flesh was a reason to run off.

Ranb

I am building a switch barrel rig.in 300 blk/458socom. Starting with a rem 700 short action with 308 bolt,I got a 223 bolt from PTG. Bottom metal by HS precison 223 mag box and a 308 mag box. Stock will be a hs with al. bedding block. I also have a XlR chassie that use the AI mags I have the 223 and 308 mags. Either setup should feed well. Both rigs will be set up for subsonic with 16

My smart phone.does not post well,sorry for the double post.


Both barrels.will be fast twist target tapers at 16" with threaded muzzels.I may cut them back to10" ,if I go sbr on the reciever if I can list two cal.
JD

In my own case, I decided just to stick with 308 and load subsonics for it. I can shoot very quiet with them, or full power loads if desired. When my current barrel is shot out, I will switch to a 1:8 twist for some heavier bullets, but the 1:10.75 seems to be stabilizing them fine so far. I have no doubt that my 180 gamekings will drop a hog in his tracks out to 100 yards with this load, when hit in the head or neck. I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to limit yourself to head/neck shots on pigs anyhow, as I've killed quite a few over the years and this about the only place to hit them and drop them. I've seen and used various other calibers and more often than not if hit in the chest they will run a pretty good distance. Breaking both shoulders just seems to waste too much good meat to me.

I also wouldn't underestimate the effectiveness of 45 acp. Yes the numbers don't seem like much, but I've personally killed about twenty with my 1911 and HK USC. I would argue performance was better than with my rifle, and chest shot animals ran significantly less distance. Ranges have been from 10 to 75 yards (with the carbine) and each time I was impressed at how well the bullets (Ranger SXT and some 230gr handloads) did.

Lastly, I think the previous comment on the "whack" of impact is important. For me, the suppressor and subsonic ammo is to slow the learning curve of the survivors. Yes, they will hear the "whack" of impact when Bubba takes one in the face next to him/her. They will most likely startle and run off. However, in my experience they will quickly return back (if hunting over a food source) as long as I don't keep shooting at them when they run away. Similar to not shooting the lead sow that comes into a field, so that she will continue to bring them in again and again. The additional benefit is that there is not a loud noise to spook other game or sounders in the area that might come in as well.
For these purposes, a bolt gun works great for me and I didn't see a need for an AR platform.

Hope this helps.

quote:

Originally posted by J D:
I am building a switch barrel rig.in 300 blk/458socom. Starting with a rem 700 short action with 308 bolt,I got a 223 bolt from PTG. Bottom metal by HS precison 223 mag box and a 308 mag box. Stock will be a hs with al. bedding block. I also have a XlR chassie that use the AI mags I have the 223 and 308 mags. Either setup should feed well. Both rigs will be set up for subsonic with 16

I built a Rem 700 EtronX in 458 SOCOM and am having an integral suppressor fabricated now at Houston Armory. Took me a few years to get there but I'm excitied to finish. The EtronX uses electric primers, so there is absolutely no action noise. Just an electrical impulse sent to the special primer when you close the circut with the trigger. I takes some getting used to because the trigger doesn't break like a mechanical unit. It just bottoms out and closes the contacts.

Next for it is night vision, then I think I'll eventually add the PTG tactical bottom and mag or something similar before I can call it done.

I bought a detachable 7.62-SDN-6 to handle the rest of my needs from .22lr to 300 Weatherby. Technically they call the SDN-6 a 7.62 NATO can but that rating is 7.62 full auto from a 10" barrel. So 300 Wby from a 28" bolt gun should be a snap.