Shawn, the ammo companies loaded many of these older calibers up to WW2, and some of the more popular types (e.g., .33 & .405 W.C.F.) into the 1950s. Availability on the .22-15-60 would overlap the introduction of the Swift, but the Stevens round predates that 4000 fps guy by many decades.

ty - .45 Rimfires are a mighty scarce commodity, only a very few rare calibers in that diameter were ever made. Most of the pistol ammo is .44 & smaller. Rifle ran .44 (such as the Henry), .46, then .50 & up, with a very few .45 exotics. The early .45 cartridges were inside primed (.45 Colt, .45 S&W, .45-70 most commonly). I can help you on the .40-82; it's relatively common. I also know where there are some .38 AMU offered for sale, if you wish to contact me directly.

iconoclast
I measured the bullet again it's not a 45,here are the measurments,can you tell me what this shell is?
case length .455
case diam .405
rim .465
bullet .405
oal .995
it has a pointed lead bullet, copper rimfire case and a U on the bottom thanks

Closest guess with out serious research is the .41 Derringer aka .41 Short . Made for the multitude of small pocket sized derringers available from the inception of selfcontained cartridges up to post WW2 . Anyone got any other suggestions ?

I've got lots of old Snyder cartridges and a few pin fires, but my most prized is a Westley Richards Super X-plorer 12bore. riveted brass over lead projectile.

ty - Once in a while the fellow from NZ is correct; this is one of them. .41 Short or "Derringer."

I can't compare to the others posts here.

I do have a 5mm Rem rimfire.

I also made a 75 ACP by cutting down a 50 bmg case, and handturning an aluminum bullet. Too bad we have those destructive device laws, as it would be a hoot to make a scaled up broomhandle mauser to shoot the beast.

I donated the dummy to the range, as they have an interesting mix of rounds there, and I don't recall what I cut it to. I simply scaled up the 45 acp, as I recall the case was 1.3" long.

Mine is a .400/375 Velopex, forerunner of the .375H&H Mag. and a 4 bore shotgun cartridge from Eley..

An original box containing 15 cartridges of the
7MM Pin-Fire. Anyone know what the availability and value of these things are.

.400 Whelan
.250 RX six rifles and dies made for this one.
.41 Long Colt

8x57R/360
12,7x44R Swedish/norwegin
11,7x46R Danish
11,7x51R Danish
11,7x56R Danish
8x58R Danish
Goes to show i live in Denmark
Henrik

Just to shift things up a bit in size:

37x195 round for the Soviet NS-37 WW2 aircraft gun
40x158R for the Vickers Class S aircraft anti-tank gun
Hartkern (PzGr.40) loadings for the WW2 German 50x289R tank gun, 37x249R anti-tank gun and 37x263B BK 3,7 airborne anti-tank gun.
28x187R for the Gerlich PzB.41 taper-bore gun
Case for the 57x230R Bofors M/47 aircraft gun
Case for the Soviet 45x386R naval AA gun
24x139 Swiss Tb41 anti-tank gun
34x239 Flab. Kan. 38 Swiss AA

And for those of you who like small ammo
20x105 MG 204 (WW2 German aircraft gun)
20x101RB for the Japanese Type 99-2 aircraft gun
15x83B for the WW2 Mauser MG 215/15 experimental aircraft gun
13x92B for the MG 215/13
12.7x120SR Vickers Class D HMG
.50/60 US expl. HMG
.50 ARES TARG plastic cased
.50 North HMG
10x107 GAU-6 (XM-277) US expl.

And for really tiny ones:
Three flechette rounds for the US expl. SPIW rifle: 5.56x44 (XM144), 5.56x44B (XM215), 5.56x57B (XM645)
7.7x62R .303 Lewis Gun Rimless
6.45x48 Swiss Gewehr Pat.80 assault rifle

And finally for you big-bore pistol fans
2.7x9 Kolibri
4.25x10 Liliput

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

[ 07-14-2002, 09:08: Message edited by: Tony Williams ]

There's quite a few, but:
.38 Dardick (triangular case for Dardick revolver)
Gyrojet (can't exactly recall, c. 13mm???)
.25-25 Stevens
several of the early Spencer rimfires, different cals.,
such as .56-46, .56-50, 56-56. etc.
Leon Beaux .41 Swiss rimfire (an Italian smokeless load v. late 1950s)
11mm French revolver
.55 Boyes Anti-Tank rifle
.455 Webley Automatic
6mm Lee Navy (U.S.)
.44 XL Shot
6mm rimfire shot
.44 Henry Flat (rimfire)
.32 Extra Short rimfire (for the Chicago Palm Pistols)
297/250 Rook and the 297/230 Morris Long (I think)
8x52Rmm Siamese --or is it 8x50Rmm? I forgot. May have both.
.276 Pedersen
.280 British
8mm Nambu
7mm Nambu
5.5mm Velo Dog revolver
.58 U.S. Musket
and gobs more.....

This isa little part of an accumulation of a lifetime, gathered mainly because it's interesting and maybe a little bit valuable --or different. I can't begin to remember what all there's there and scattered around the workshop where I stuck it to get it out of the way. Each cartridge has an interesting history in its development. Quite fascinating, really, and kind of a thrill to get to handle and own stuff which was contemporary with an explosive growth of Western culture and civilization.

Paladin

Unfortunately as a "general" collector I want to accumulate everything. A few notables that I have in my collection are; 7X55 Broadway Trust. .46 O.F. Winchester two pc. case, 8.5MM Mars along with the 9MM, .360, .45 S&L.
I also have a lot of duplicates in almost every field and would be glad to entertain trades of out right sale. Send your wants.

Tom

What ARE the 'Broadway Trust', the 'OF Winchester' and the 'S & L'? Do you have duplicates of these?

the_captn

captnmnt@redwing.net

The strangest thing I have is a .44 Bulldog that I got from my dad years ago. I have a lot of foreign calibers, but I don't consider any of them "strange."

Regards!

Eric

A .228 Ackley Double-Shouldered Magnum.

Some obscure ones I own are:

6.5x53.5 Daudeteau
6.5x61 Swedish experimental
9.5x47R
10x52R

I have another one that I can't seem to identify. It has a H. Utendoerffer/ Nurnberg headstamp. Measurements are:
Case length-22mm
Rim diameter-9.35mm
Bullet diameter- 5.58mm
Any help identifying this obscure number would be greatly appreciated!

I assume this is a rimmed cartridge , so the following may be what you have .
A) 5.3mm Scheibenpistole - a rimmed cartridge for target pistols and rifles ca.1900 - 1914? First produced by H. Uttendoerffer , as per your example
or B) 5.3 x 22R "Z" Tesching - listed in the Uttendoerffer catalogue of 1908 and up to 1930 in the Gecado catalogue . A rimmed pistol cartridge for indoor gallery style shooting , which was a popular pastime in polite society of those times .

First one suggested is listed on page 50 of Brandts Manual of Pistol and Revolver Cartridges , second from p.83 of Dixons European Sporting Cartridges . Nice cartridge , probably one of the more obscure of the era , but then there are so many of this type that one can be forgiven for not having them all! Good one!

Muzza, O all knowing one! I have another one for you. It's only an 8x57JS, made by RWS, so no mystery there. The mystery, for me anyway, is that it's loaded in a steel case, comlpete with an RWS headstamp. The case itself resembles a military case, with the greenish colour. When did RWS make such cases, and how common are they? The bullet is a steel jacketed soft point, weighing approx 200 grs.

Metrix, possibly for civilian use in WW2 - just as we had some limited runs of various military & commercial calibers for use by farmers and the like.

[ 09-06-2002, 08:20: Message edited by: Iconoclast ]

Like Mr Iconoclast says - civilian contract using military overrun cases ? Even the really big manufacturers used overrun stock to fill non military orders - especially in times of economic hardship .
Interesting sporting variant.

Gentlemen,
I have a rifle made by Miller & Val. Greiss in M�nich before WWI in the caliber 9,3x63. The 9,3x63 is made from a necked down 10,75x68 case.

Does anybody here have a cartridge in this calibre???

/Husky

Well, I have a 9.3x62 Mauser and a 9.3x64 Brenneke, but nothing in between...

Tony Williams
Military gun and ammunition website: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Discussion forum at: http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/

I knew that Miller-Greiss made a 9.5x73(rimless) but didn't know they made a 9.3x63.

My reference tells me that Miller and Greiss loaded ( or maybe loaded )the following calibres ;
8 x 73mm - DWM # 599 . Minie refers to this as a M & G cartridge , the DWM casebook refers to it as a 8 x 73S ( ca1939 ) using the .404 Jeffery case-10.75 x 73mm- with a "S" 8mm projectile. Most M & G development appears to use the .404 case.
8 x 75mm - DWM produced a proprietory loading of the 8 x 75 Behr shown as the 315 Miller and Greiss ca 1926. No DWM number is allocated for this cartridge.

9 x 63mm - may be a proprietory loading of the original 9 x 63 M88.

9.3 x 63mm - noted in previous posting .

9.5 x 73 Miller and Greiss Magnum - the best known of the calibres. A necked down version of the .404 Jeffery ( 10.75 x 73 mm ) early Dwm cases date to 1926 , later ( 1928 ) cases have the number 564 allocated. RWS produced cases with "MILLER & GREISS MUNCHEN " Headstamps . The calibre does not appear to have survived beyond WW2.

10 x 42R Miller and Greiss- Case # 108 in the ca 1886 Lorenz Export Catalogue , clearly labeled as a Miller and Greiss calibre . A Target round introduced sometime about 1880.

10.75 x 73 Miller and Greiss Magnum , with proprietory "MILLER & GREISS MUNCHEN " h/s seems identical to the .416 Rigby , introduced in England ca 1911 .Uses a larger case with more abrupt shoulder than the .404 Jeffery case. This baby is very scarce!

575 Miller and Greiss Magnum - only known through diagrams ( ca 1958 )and shown in a ECCA Bulletin. Supposedly based on .50 Browning case with a heavily rebated rim. An early wildcat!No commercial manufacturer known , and no specimen known at this time .

So , there you go . Get out there and search for them.

Hope thats interesting....

My rarest ones include 7,62x53R Improved(or 54R Russian as you probably know it) and an experimental wildcat .338 Lapua Magnum necked up to .50 cal.

40bsa
600 Jeffery dummy
50 duds
mars pistol set
60 jingal
25mm Brunswick telescoped

Corbin Shell
corbinshell@mindspring.com
919-554-2805

In reply to, "What are the most obscur/rarest cartridges you own?"

Well, I must state that beyond a doubt the .31 Volcanic and .41 Volcanic cartridges are the both the most obscure and most rare I have.

Albeit, I have had great difficulty in getting any to fire in my .41 Volcanic.

41Volcanic,

Well, I must state that beyond a doubt the .31 Volcanic and .41 Volcanic cartridges are the both the most obscure and most rare I have.
[/QUOTE]

Could you please give us more details on these cartridges. Many thanks.

BER007, these were smaller versions - very much smaller - of the Volcanic rifle cartridge. I believe they were intended for use in a handgun. There were many variations in the material used to seal the base - cork being the most common. There are also some with metallic foil. Still can't upload pix, or I could show you some.

Iconoclast,

Thanks for your reply. I'll be happy to see some pics of that. You have my e-mail address in my signature.

My favorite obscure cartridge is the .38-.45 Short Polish Magnum. This was a WW2 era cartridge, made by necking up a .38 short to .45 caliber. This was fired in a proprietory pistol with a unique pistol using a swiveling rotating falling breech block.

The magazine was a converted peck basket attached to the grip of the pistol, which threw it's balance off quite badly. The action funtioned thus -
the cartridge would fire, and the breechblock would swivel and rotate, falling from the firearm, requiring the firer to replace it each shot. High speed was achieved by the well trained troops.

A mechanical arm would then reach into the basket magazine, place the cartridge in the chamber, the breechblock would rotate and swivel back into position, and the next shot was fired. Control was extremly difficult with all this action, making the pistol somewhat dangerous within it's maximum four meter range.

This pistol came with the appropriate holster, and two magazines were carried, each made from the headskin of an elephant. Special winter clothing was necessarily made to cover the equipment. A full squad picture was never made of the Waffenpoofenstickenoutten Troops, as wide angle cameras were rare at the time.

I suspect you may be having us on a bit here...Unless of course you are genuinely confused with the 38/45 Bain/Davis autopistol cartridge, which is a necked down 45 ACP case with 357/38 cal projectile for use in a modified Colt pistol.

I also suspect that you may be of Polish ancestry but have a psycological block against admitting it in public, and hide behind the bravado of Polish jokes...

The Poles made that really neat WWII Anti-tank cartridge called the 7.92 Marsozek which certainly isnt a joke , and loaded some interesting 7.92 Mauser military cartridges too...

I`ve got a 1904 dated f-a 30-03 cartridge with a plastic typy round nose bullet,been told either an aircraft gunners trainer round or a blank.also a full box of early UMC smokeless 45-70-500gr rn
with the cardboard box and pull-string to open it.

does your 30-03 have a waxy paper bullet or a "normal" type of bullet? The paper blank bullet will look like it is a little wrinkley on the nose , which should be roughly rounded in profile . This is the only listed type of blank for the 30-03 , save for a full length Gatling type specimen which is known to have been made but isnt known to exist today.

The weirdest and most obscure?

A .44 Bulldog that my dad gave me.

I guess I'm too conventional.

friend of mine found a 90mm military shell in someone's attic last month...yeah he's keeping it for his own collection...