Gentlemen,
I have a cartridge with the following dimensions.

Caliber: 12,7 mm
Bullet: Casted lead RN approx 450 Grains.
Caselength: Rimmed 43,2 mm
COL: 64 mm
Stamp: "H UTENDOERFFER" NURNBERG

Anyone of you gentlemen who can identify this?

thanks in advance

regards VOYAGER

My guess would be the 12mm Hagen-Lund ( 12 x 44R ), dating from c1880 ish - but the mentioned headstamp is not noted in Dixon Vol 2 p236.....
Hope that is some help , sorry if only adds to the confusion.

I have seen 12.7x44R Hagen ammo with the H.Utendoerffer headstamp offered for sale,that may well be what your cartridge is.

The 12.7x44R Hagen is a bottlenecked round.

When asking for identification of a cartridge,you should indicate whether it is a straight,straight taper,or bottlenecked case.Rim type should be stated.Dimensions should be given
for,rim diameter and thickness,base diameter,shoulder diameter,neck diameter,bullet diameter,shoulder length,case length,and cartridge length.Type of primer should be included.Dimensions should be stated in inch decimal measure if possible.

WC

Hi, WC
Yes you are right, I should ofcourse give such details as you mention, when describing the case.
Rim-diameter is 16 mm
It is allmost a straight case: 14 mm at the rim and 13,5 mm at the top.
I am sorry, I do not have any inch references.

//VOYAGER

more info..
Rim thickness is 1,2 mm.
I will try to post a picture of it later.

Are there any collectors in my neighbourhood
Sweden - Germany, etc.

//VOYAGER

Hey , Wildcat Crazy - dont you think it would be more relevant for a metric cartridge to have its dimensions stated in metric measurements? Particularly when the query comes from a person in a european country that only uses the metric system for measurement - as does the majority of the world if you really think hard about it.

Ps , thanks for the info on the Utendoeffer headstamp on the cartridge , I shall inform my friend Mr Dixon next time I see him that his book has an error......

Hi, muzza
Can you recommend some books with focus on the old classic big-bores and
also some of the asian cartridges.
I am thinking of the japanese, chinese and siamese military and civilian cartridges (if any)?

thanks in advance..

//VOYAGER

I am aware that most of the world is metric oreinted,however most of the references,that I'm aware of,give inch/decimal measurements for the metric cartridges.There are many people whom will not put out the effort to convert metric-inch.

I worked for years, in t&d and machine shops,
with metric prints,before I had any metric measuring instruments,so I have no problem with converting metric -inch.

WC

voyager,

For a good listing of books try; www.cartridgecollectors.org/bibliography.htm

For headstamps try; www.bordingl.com zfondelli

WC

Voyager - the field of "oriental" for want of a better term cartridge references is even tougher than metric sporting used to be. Other than several dated booklets by Ken Elkes I cant think of much in the way of referance for you . History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition by Hoyem covers most fields to some extent but that Jap/Chinese stuff is hard . I would have to go with WC's advice on the two websites as a start point .

WC - not meaning to stir things up , just a query about the metric measurements . I appreciate that you folk holding out against the simple metric system would want to avoid using multiples of ten in favour of that complex system of fractions of an inch , but that is what metric converter verniers were invented for .....

Keep up the good work guys , we all appreciate the input. cheers.

WC and MUZZA
Thank you very much for your information.
I know the oriental cartridges are quite difficult.
The reason for my interest in the asian / oriental cartridges, is that one of my friends has been on a travel to India, visiting
the old Danish colony "Tranquebar".
Over there he saw alot of interesting stuff about oriental weapons and their ammo.
Alot of the weapons were old german and danish rifles, rebarreled to more exotic calibers.
Could be interesting to do some research in that direction.

P.S. The weapons mentioned did also represent the far east region.

//VOYAGER

Voyager-

there is also a small booklet by Teruaki Isomura on early Made Japanese Military Small Arms Ammunition that covers Japanese cartridges from c.1880. My copy is a reprint by Richard King of Oregon USA , but I doubt the world will collapse if I photocopy it for you......if you want . I did have a spare copy but think it went to a new owner so the photocopy is the best I can do .Let me know .

Hi, MUZZA
Thanks alot...
That will be interesting.
Can you scan it and mail it to my e-mail?
I am very interested in that kind of info.
If unable to scan and mail, I will try to find a fax.
Thanks again..

//VOYAGER

Your quarie about the 12,7x44 makes me think about the old swedish millitary round used in some Remington rolling block rifles... I might be totally wrong, just picked it out from memmory, but you might want to check it out. I know there are plenty of different headstamps for this round. You can find the swedish round in Cartridges of the world #9.