G'day. No Gerry, I was shooting 5 stand, anything crossing left to right causes problems. I will just have to get the physioterrorists to work on that range of movement. Then it's back for round three of surgery, and hopefully after rehab, out of the chair for good!
BTW, the patterns with 9's were nice and even, 8's were a little patchy, and 6's were even with the more open chokes (cyl, imp cyl and mod), but a bit patchy with the tighter chokes. Now to try some 7.5s, but no-one seems to bring in 7's. Does anyone know if MEC still make the Jnr press in 28g?

They make all their loaders in 28ga. The 28 is great just bear in mind a 20, 16 or 12 ga it is not. It simply cannot throw meaningful payloads of large shot. Try to find #7 if you can, it is the perfect shot size for the 28 and is Pheasant medicine inside 35 yards all day.

Dave:

For what it's worth, the No.5 station (apparently you guys say "Stand") often requires a "hard right" swing.(unless you're cheating and "reading the machine") In trap, it is usually a somewhat dreaded station for just that reason. Frankly, shooting from a wheelchair, I am astonished that you can get on the bird at all. Sounds to me like you're doing just fine. (Of course, I wish you good luck with the surgeries. Anyway, Aussies are too mean to stay in a wheelchair!)

Nah, not too mean, just too stubborn.
BTW it's not trap, in the conventional sense, I don't even know if you guys in the USA shoot this particular style. It consists of 8-10 traps arranged at various points around the ground, throwing clays both towards and away, as well as crossing, and 5 stands to shoot from. The standard round is 25 clays, from a computer managed and constantly varied (everyone shooting gets the same targets, but they are never the same sequence from one round to the next) series of traps. Imagine Skeet, but with 10 traps and only 5 stations.
Here it is known as 5 stand, but it could be something completely different in your neck of the woods.

Planemech, thanks for that. The importer thinks he can get some 7's from Italy but isn't sure of delivery times. Winchester only list 6's and 9's, OK for the field and skeet, not so good for 5 stand and trap.
Looks as if I will have to order a loader.

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:

Here it is known as 5 stand, but it could be something completely different in your neck of the woods.

We have 5 stand here, at least they have it at the Prince George's County Trap and Skeet Center in Greenbelt, Maryland, but I've never shot it. I don't know whether or not it's the same as what you have.

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:
Winchester only list 6's and 9's, OK for the field and skeet, not so good for 5 stand and trap.
Looks as if I will have to order a loader.

I do recommend loading your own, as it gives you maximum flexibility.

But have you looked at Remington loads, and do you have access to them? I don't have their catalog in front of me, but my memory is that they have #8 shot available in their 28 gauge target loads.

Sambar, you can get Winchester AA's in 7 1/2 or 8 in the sporting clays loads. Saw them just the other day at Wal Mart. I do knot know if they export that load to Australia though.

American #7 or English #6 is hard to get even here in the states, don't waste it on clay 7.5's and 8's are plenty for clay. Winchester and Remington both load in 9,8 and 7.5. #6 and even #5 can be found in Winchester 1 oz loadings- but why? Fiocchi loads 7/8 oz of #6, 3/4 of 7.5, 8 and 9. Federal Loads 3/4 of 9, 8, 7.5 and 6. B&P loads 3/4 of 8, 7.5 and 7. Rio loads then in 3/4 oz 8 and 9. Be forewarned the sporting clays loads are at 1300 fps, not mild at all in a sub 6 lb gun with no pad.

I'm a huge 28ga fan and reload them at a cost of about $2.50 a box rather than the $6.50 target loads cost. It's fairly pricey to get hulls unless you buy them from Ballistic Products by the case new and primed. That hull is made by Chedditte and is a good one, large volume and good plastic she should last 10 reloads or so if you use a med slow powder like HS6, Unique, Longshot or Solo 1250. My favorite is Unique.

quote:

Originally posted by Planemech:

...use a med slow powder like HS6, Unique, Longshot or Solo 1250. My favorite is Unique.

If you can get it where you are, Hodgdon's Universal Clays is also excellent for 28 ga. I think it is slightly cleaner burning than Unique.

Lloyd,

We have 5 stand on the Eastern Shore too. I'm here to tell ya, you need a mod choke to break the birds unless you are real quick on doubles.

You're right about Univ Clays...does a fine job in the 28 ga. and I'm using it in the 38 Spl for cowboy shoots too and it is a fine powder.

Lloyd, no Winchester only bring in 6's (super x) and 9's (AA). The local gunshop thinks they can get some Rio's in 7.5 at a good price. But let's face it 28g is never going to be as cheap as 12g in OZ, there just aren't enough to support a big purchase of ammo by a distributor.
So, onto the press, since I can always get #7 shot, and Win AA wads are available at a reasonable price.
I even managed to talk the Doc into letting me set up a loader in the maintainence section of the hospital (similar to you VA hospitals in the USA) so I can load. He thinks it will be good therapy for me. Having my surgeon on side didn't hurt either, he's the guy I borrowed the 28g from in the first place. Gotta love the military! Give them a good reason to approve something, and they cannot do enough for an injured vet. Even the Physio thought it was a good idea.

Thanks again everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:

But let's face it 28g is never going to be as cheap as 12g in OZ, there just aren't enough to support a big purchase of ammo by a distributor.

It's the same here in the US. You can get cheap 12 and 20 gauge loads from Winchester and Remington (often called promotional loads) -- sometimes for as little as $3 a box of 25, and perhaps even a few cents less. But it's impossible to get 28ga. and .410 loads for that price; they are usually $6 or more per box. The ammo companies do not make cheap promotional loads in 28 and .410. If they did, it would be worthwhile to buy some to get the empty hulls for reloading. But no such luck.

Sambar 9.3 (Dave)

It sounds to me like you are shooting what's called "sporting clays" up here -and yes, we say "stand" for that in many areas of the States. It's particularly difficult (in my very limited experience with "clays) With a 28 ga. {A 12 is usually used up here} (Personally, I think in your case, it's just another example of an Aussie determined, come hell or high water, to show up a Yank!)

I usually shoot clays with a 28, or a 16 Universal clays is ok, but it burns the hull mouth a lot more than Unique, causing the crimps to fail from splits before a similar load with Unique. The "clean" burn issue is pointless with a double as there is no gas port or action to foul with powder granules anyway. A tico tool or a patch solves the issue easily. The clays powders may be the answer there as they are made there. There are even recipies for 5/8 loads in 28 ga, really soft shooters if sent at 1165 or so.

The Win AA loads in #9 3/4 oz don't feel to kick much at all. Since I am building up a supply of hulls, I will probably try to duplicate this load, but with #7 or 7.5 shot. ADI's AS 30 N seems to be the powder for this. I am not sure, but I think Hodgdon sell this in the USA as Clays.

I have some 3/4oz wads on order (the distributor assures me he has them in stock, which usually means I will get them sometime next year!), so if the Rio loads don't turn up, I will have something for clays other than #9's for Skeet.

Still, Skeet is fun, but I really have to think about the shot prior to taking it, and work within my range of movement.

Dave, if you end up with the new 28 AA HS cases, Universal powder will not work unless you got to a Remington PT 28 wad. The hull is a tad shorter and the Universal powder is bulkier. I have been using LongShot and it loads well.

I am off to go skeet shooting in just a few minutes and the wind gods have kicked it up a notch so it should be interesting.

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:

ADI's AS 30 N seems to be the powder for this. I am not sure, but I think Hodgdon sell this in the USA as Clays.

Hodgdon sells at least three different powders in the US as Clays (From fastest to slowest burning)

Clays (Best for 12 ga. target loads)
International Clays (Best for 20 ga. target loads and heavier 12 ga. loads)
Universal Clays (Best for 28 ga. loads and heavier 20 and 12 ga. loads)

Customstox, yes those are the cases I am saving. Does anyone have a load that will work with the Win 3/4 oz wads? I think I will need about 1250-1300 fps, and data on loads in 28g is pretty scarce here in OZ.

Had some luck on the weekend, went to a friends farm and managed to bag a phesant and a brace of rabbits! Everyone who handled the 28g 686s remarked how it nice it was, and how little the perceived recoil was. Now his wife wants one! (so does mine, we may have to get one with a LH stock, maybe next year).

We played around with his pattern plate, and from the looks of it I am giving up about 5 yards effective range with Win #6's to the 12g #6 32g load. I had thought it might be a more marked difference, but I am quite happy to be wrong on this one.

Thanks again everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:

Does anyone have a load that will work with the Win 3/4 oz wads? I think I will need about 1250-1300 fps, and data on loads in 28g is pretty scarce here in OZ.

It's difficult to answer your question because I don't know the burning rate of your powder.

If it is similar to Hodgdon Universal Clays or Alliant Unique or IMR 800X -- three widely used powders for 28 ga. -- then 13 to 14 grains should get you a velocity of 1200 f.p.s. or slightly faster, using the WW28 wads, a Winchester primer, and 3/4 oz of shot.

If you are using a slower burning powder -- something comparable to Winchester 540 or Hodgdon's HS6 -- then you would need about 17.1 to 17.5 grains to get the same velocity. If you have a powder as slow-burning as Wichester 571, then you could use up to 20.5 grains to get 1260 f.p.s.

If what you have is the same as Hodgdon's Longshot, then about 14.3 grains will get you 1200 f.p.s. and 15.1 grains will yield 1250 f.p.s.

I don't see any loads for 28 ga. that are listed in any loading manual I have as giving more than 1275 f.p.s. (That one comes from using a Remington PT 28 wad in Winchester cases with a Winchester primer and 15.5 gr. of Hodgdon Longshot powder.)

If it were me, I'd start with 14 grains of whatever powder you have that seems appropriate, and then chronograph some loads. If I were getting 1200 to 1250 f.p.s., I'd conclude that I had what I need. If the velocity is significantly higher than 1250 f.p.s., or I were getting signs of too-high pressures, I'd suspect that my pressures are higher than they should be, and I'd drop back a grain. If the velocities were below 1150 f.p.s., I'd increase by a grain until I got 1200 to 1250 f.p.s.

I've found that powder charges for shotshells are less critical than for rifle loads. But you can get too-high pressures in shotshells too, so, as usual, caution is in order.

LE270, I can get Alliant Unique, so that load should do nicely. Some of the other powders we just cannot get, or are difficult to find. FWIW, ADI's AP-70N is the rough (+-5%) equivalent to Unique. The website also lists AP-70N as the equivalent to Universal, and AP-90 as the equivalent to HS-6 and IMR800X.

Thanks, now to play around with loads till I get one that the gun likes.

13.0 of Unique is my go to load for 3.4 oz 28 gauge loads. That's a 1200 fps load, I never saw any reason to "need" more than that for a 28 gauge, if you "need" to shootfast loads you "need" something larger of bore.

Sounds good, I will give that one a try.
BTW, Diana make a 7, 7.5 or 8 3/4oz load in 28g, that is reasonable, price wise. Listed MV is 1250fps. Instead of the $16 per box for Winchester it's about $9 per box, less if you buy a case of it. I tried a couple on the patterning range, nice even patterns with a 60/40 spread, out of my gun.
Now to see how they go on clays.

Planemech, I agree with you about velocity. My loads for field use are usually around the 1200fps mark.
A while back, when the superfast 24g loads became popular, a few of the shooters were clean missing what appeared to be a centered target.
When we eventually recovered an unbroken clay, we found 3 holes in it from the pattern. Someone mentioned that perhaps the pellets were not breaknig the clay because of the high velocity. I personally though that was a fairly far-fetched rationale, but then read an article in an English gun mag which outlined a pretty good case for that reasoning.
I'm still unconvinced, but it could well be true. Either way, I think I will stick with 1200 - 1250fps or so, recoil is minimal, and any clays not broken are usually my fault anyway. The rabbits and quail don't seem to be able to tell the difference either.

We have also had good experiences with Fiochi shells in our 28 g. Cheap compared to Super X. We reload with a MEC 600 Jnr but cannot reload these ones.

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:

Planemech, I agree with you about velocity. My loads for field use are usually around the 1200fps mark.

...I think I will stick with 1200 - 1250fps or so, recoil is minimal, and any clays not broken are usually my fault anyway. The rabbits and quail don't seem to be able to tell the difference either.

For 12 gauge skeet shooting, I load 1 oz. and even 7/8 oz. loads, and load them to about 1150 f.p.s. I've never found a need for higher velocity for skeet, and the lower velocity produces loads that kick less, meaning that they do not make you as tired after a run of 100 shots.

I see no reason why the same would not be true for 3/4 oz. 28 gauge loads.

Diana are making a 15gr load for the 28g that seems to work nicely for skeet. Not much recoil, either.

Just finished a 75tgt round, using Win AA 9's. nice load, seems to pattern well, easy on the shoulder (and everything else that hurts, too). First time in a long time that I have managed a Competition round without having to withdraw. Pity the loads are not the cheapest, but hey, they will do until the MEC press arrives.
Thanks everyone, for all the advice and encouragement!

PS, still stuck in 'C' grade! Maybe next time!

Good luck on your recovery my friend. Haven't waded through all of the replies so if it's already been said I apologize but, the fit of your gun will make a much greater difference in felt recoil (as well as hiiting what you shoot at) than mere choice of bore. That said I think you wont see much difference in effectivness between the 28 and 20 but as someone did point out (here in the states at least) 28ga. ammo is much more expensive due to less demend. Reloading can address this factor as well as tayloring loads to your specific needs. Also, it my just be me but I've always found Berretas to kick like a mule straight from the box! Good luck.

Thanks for the kind words Oupa. I've always been pretty lucky with Berettas, the sporter/field stocks seem to fit me like a glove straight out of the box. This little 28 was no exception.
I'm not sure, but I feel (along with a very understanding coach!) it is a combination of the light weight of the gun, and the almost non exsistant recoil which is helping me get back into the sport. Along with the 'gentle ministrations' of the physioterrorists. Going through the resistance to interrogation training was a doddle compared to these pricks.
Still, if it gets me back walking and shooting, I'm not going to complain too loudly.
I have ordered a press (a MEC 600) and a case of the AA wads, so here's hoping I can work out a load to duplicate the excellent results of the factory Win AA 9's.
Any advice would be most welcome.
Thanks again guys.

quote:

Originally posted by Sambar 9.3:

I have ordered a press (a MEC 600) and a case of the AA wads, so here's hoping I can work out a load to duplicate the excellent results of the factory Win AA 9's.

I'm very glad to hear that your therapy is going well and that you are able to shoot in competition again without dropping out.

The Winchester loading manual I have at hand (15th ed. -- admittedly a bit old) lists a load of 3/4 oz. of shot, Win 209 primer, 19 grains of Winchester 571 powder, and the Win WAA28 wad as their first one for the 28 ga. Winchester AA hull. According to the manual, this gives 1200 f.p.s. of velocity and 10,200 LUP of pressure. I think this would be a duplicate of their factory load.

Since you are unlikely to be able to get that particular powder, I suggest using 13 grains of Unique, with all else the same as above, as a first attempt to duplicate the Winchester factory load.

The amount and burning rate of powder in any load (shotgun or rifle) does have some effect on the recoil produced. But this is probably small enough that you can ignore it, meaning that you can probably ignore the differences between 13 gr. of Unique and 19 gr. of Winchester 571 -- in fact, the smaller powder charge should produce slightly less kick because, when calculating recoil, the weight of the powder, along with the weight of the projectile and the weight of the wad (if any) figure as part of the ejecta from the case when a cartridge or shell is fired.

Thanks Lloyd, I will give it a try.

Here in Italy thee is a lot more variety in the smoothebore market.
A friend of mine recently acquired a 32ga, which seems like a very nice little cartridge. .410 is equal to 36ga, putting the 32ga about halfway between the 28ga and the .410

You might want to see if you can get one into Oz.

Sambar
I have a 28 ga bbl for my Blaser R 93.

I have killed ducks with Bismuth shot, and quail, grouse and a trukey with Winchester No 6's.

I have been suprised how effective it is.

I load 800X, PC wad, AA hull and a scant 3/4 oz. NI #5 shot. At proper shotgun ranges over my pointing pups it kills the heck out of wild ringnecks, grouse and chickens. It has also done well on a few occasions on greenheads.

Right barrel is skeet and the left is a tight IC.

Lloyd, thanks for the tip. Nice even patterns, no discernable difference in recoil, and the powder is easy to get.
As an addit for anyone else in OZ looking for a good load, if you cannot find Unique, try ADI AS 70N, 13 grs with the win AA wad and 3/4 oz of 9's. Same results, and ADI powder is a bit cheaper, although a lot dirtier (you would think ADI had dicovered smokeless powder by now! ).