Purchased a 20 gau. for dove hunting. Its so light it feels like packing a BB gun. So, on my trip to South Dakota I threw it in the truck along with some 3" 5 shot. The birds I shot behind my pointer dropped dead. But, longer shots 30-40 yds I seemed to cripple quite a few. And, I'm a fair shot. I thought by going to a 3" shell (more shot) and a large shot size I might off set the smaller 20 gau. I'm thinking of going back to a 12 gauge this year. Although, I would rather pack the 20. Is there a big ballistic difference in 20 and 12 gau.?

MWC,

Go back to the 12 ga. There is a huge ballistic difference simply in the number of shot BBs within each shell. My family owns quite a bit of land in South Dakota so I grew up hunting pheasants, and I can tell you right now that most people frown upon using a 20 ga on pheasants. I have no doubt that 20 ga. can kill them but the percentage of crippled birds and "runners" is just too high to justify it. They just don't pack enough punch especially at long ranges and even worse if you are using steel shot. I can tell you first hand that you don't want to be that guy who is crippling birds, it will get on the landowner's nerves in a hurry. So if you are visiting friends, a preserve, or public land I strongly encourage the 12 ga. as you will wound less birds, bag more, and feel good in the end that you didn't leave any out in the field as coyote/hawk bait.

Have hunted with both, the 20ga 3" seems to string out the shot charge more than the equivalent weight charge in a 12ga in some guns.

To me, it appears the more squarish the shot charge (height and width) the better ,in general the pattern. (ie,16 ga and 28ga.)

While the longer shot columns (ie, 12 3 1/2" , 20ga. 3" etc) while packing more lead seem to pattern not as uniformly.

(I know all guns and chokes pattern differently, just my observations)

MWC -- First off, IF you keep your shots inside of 40 yards there really isn't that much difference between the 12ga and 20ga in the uplands if you use the appropriate load/pellet and if you choke it properly for the distance you are shooting. However, outside of 40 yards the 12ga will make things much easier and be more lethal!

Secondly, a 1 1/4 oz load of #5 lead (a great pheasant load) has the same number of pellets (approx. 212)regardless of if it is shot from a 12ga or a 20ga so the number of pellets isn't an issue. How it is choked can make a big difference though and a 12ga will be easier to maintain killin' pattern density than a 20ga beyond 40 yards. You didn't say what choke you were using, it may not be holding up good pattern density at 40 yards. You need to go pattern your gun/choke to make sure it will put about 100 of those #5 lead pellets in a 30" pattern at your max shooting distance to be lethal on pheasants.

Third, yes a 20ga 1 1/4 oz load will have a longer shot string (not quite as efficient) than the same load in a 12ga but I think it is only a minor factor. Particularly with going away or shallow angled shots like much of the pheasant shooting I've been around. To me, worrying about shot strings is just splitting hairs inside of 40 yards!

Fourth, if you have to shoot nontoxic shot, steel #3s or #2s has proven (see Roster's article in North Dakota Outdoors, 1999) to be best with steel and I have shot some with Rem HD in #6 shot and seemed to have good result. Remember, your pattern need to have about 100 pellets in the 30" circle.

I have shot many phesants over the years and most of them have been with a 20ga and 3" shells. I use to shoot #6 lead but slowly moved up to #5 or #4 lead. I think #5 and #4 lead is better for all-round wild pheasant shooting. A little extra pellet energy is a good thing with pheasants as long as you can maintain good pattern density at the distance you are shooting them! In recent years, most of mine have been shot with steel #2s and a few with Rem HD #6s as mentioned earlier.

Bottom line, shoot the gun/gauge you are most confident in, hold your shots to a reasonable distance, and do you part by putting the pattern on the bird!

Good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by edholum:
MWC,

Go back to the 12 ga. There is a huge ballistic difference simply in the number of shot BBs within each shell. My family owns quite a bit of land in South Dakota so I grew up hunting pheasants, and I can tell you right now that most people frown upon using a 20 ga on pheasants. I have no doubt that 20 ga. can kill them but the percentage of crippled birds and "runners" is just too high to justify it. They just don't pack enough punch especially at long ranges and even worse if you are using steel shot. I can tell you first hand that you don't want to be that guy who is crippling birds, it will get on the landowner's nerves in a hurry. So if you are visiting friends, a preserve, or public land I strongly encourage the 12 ga. as you will wound less birds, bag more, and feel good in the end that you didn't leave any out in the field as coyote/hawk bait.

That's as true as it gets for wild birds. Preserve birds are something else entirely, it depends on how acclimated they are, but in general, they're much less difficult to kill than wild birds, I've stacked them up with a .410 but I have seen places in Kansas that had some pretty decent preserve hunting that really needed a 12, especially if it was windy. I won't hunt preserves anymore myself. I've stated for years that if you want to kill something, use a 12 ga, if you want to play use a 28 or .410......I've walked, hunted, and shot beside and with some extremely fine shots over the years and I don't give a damn who they are, day in, day out, you feather and wound more birds with a 20 than with a 12. Better shots do it less, but it still happens. Now a fine shot with a 20 is certainly better than most shots with a 12 but I'm comparing apples and apples.

Trust me on this, as you age you will definitely trend toward replacing that heavy 12 with a lightweight 20. It took decades of pheasant hunting in about four states to arrive at that conclusion.

Early on I knocked 'um down left and right with a 28" barrel Rem 11-87 12 Ga and had no problem lugging it from dawn to dusk.

Now I take my quail gun, a 1930s Rem Model 11 in 20 ga with a cyl bore 23" barrel. It's a dream to handle and carry and I'm not dog tired at day's end. I don't find many birds that can't be killed with #6 lead in 2 3/4" shells. It hasn't been a major handicap at all. But, you just have to go on and get the shot off (it's the first shotgun I ever fired...about 1953).

Btw, I'll share this too. On my early morning hunting trips I stop off for a couple donuts at a local shop that's open at 4 a.m. There's a worker there who always shows so much interest in my hunts and wants to talk about what all he did growing up on a farm in pheasant country.

He says he couldn't afford a shotgun as a kid, so he killed pheasants on his folks' place with the only gun he had, a .50 muzzleloader. In his case I don't doubt it.

Puts 12 ga vs. 20 ga in a whole different light. And don't think I haven't regreted not being able to take him along...

So many wrong answers and so few correct ones.

There is no ballistic difference in a #4 pellet from a 12 gauge vs a 20 gauge shotgun. Same # of pellets per ounce and same velocity.
Stringing of pellets has a greater effect on crossing birds than n birds flying away or towards the shooter

Have you ever patterned your gun?

Very few people do pattern their gun. What most people do not realize is that if your stock fit is not perfect, you can nail birds at 20 yards, but at 40 yards you only cripple them; or miss entirely. That is what you described in your O.P.

I'll bet you dinner that your P.O.I. is not your P.O.A. at 40 yards.

Pattern your gun and let us know.

I think the Shottist and Joe Hunter on pretty much spot on. It depends more on the gun/shooter fit than anything else. It also depends to some degree on shot selection. I hunt wild pheasants annually with a 20 gauge. I rarely ever wound a bird, but I do miss a few. My 20 is fitted and I shoot it well. I also take wise shots and don't over-extend my range.

My son ,use a SKB ou ,for montaraz partrige -same size of a pheasant -and pheasants with great succes ,he even used it for ducks with great results.Juan

20 VS 12, doesn't make much of a difference. Patterns are comparable. Your either on the bird or not! Choke the gun tighter later in the season for longer shots and switch to sixes backed up with fours.

After years of shooting Pheasants I have settled on the 12 ga 2 3/4 inch with 1 3/8 ounces of 5 shot for the opening week and 1 1/2 ounces of 4 shot for later after they get wild.
I have had friends that shot 20 ga for a hunt or two but after I shot several birds stone dead that they just ruffled the feathers on they brought 12 ga next hunt. We handload our shells and pattern to get the best choke tube for the shot & load we shoot. I have started shooting my Black Eagle for all my bird hunts and I feel I shoot better just useing 1 gun. At 7 pounds it is plenty light for walking up birds.

Hawkeye47

MWC,

you need to practice on "getting on target" faster.
You don't need anything more then a 20 gauge since you are hunting behind POINTER'S not FLUSHER'S.
Be sure to walk around your pointer to the front of the dog head to force the bird to flush toward the dog not away from the dog as if somebody standing behind the dog at it rearend waiting for the bird to be flush.

The type of dog that you hunt behind will determined which gauges of shotgun will suit your needs. My personal favourite is Federal high velocity 1 1/4 @ 1475 or 1500 f.p.s. and that a smokin round that's great for those windy day's.

Have you patterned your shotgun @ 30 to 40 yards?

Which choke tube restrictions?

Which load, 2 3/4 or 3 inch?, you be amazed to see the differences.

20 vs 12 for pheasants.....hmmmmm?

Lets see.... the Federal "Pheasants Forever" loads are: 12 gauge/ 1.25 oz. of #5 shot @ 1400 fps and 20 gauge /1.25 oz of #5 shot @ 1350 fps.

I'm a pheasant..... do I want an 1.25 oz. of #5 shot shot at me traveling at 1400 fps or 1350 fps? Can there be ANY real difference?

The 12 gauge "kills better at longer distances"......pure BS.....same pellets, almost same velocity.

Shooter ability and choke have more to do with "killing pheasants" than "gauge"

I hope I don't have to "give back" the hundreds (100's) of wild pheasants that I have killed with my 28 gauge ( 1 oz. #5/6 shot @ 1200 fps) over my pointing labs!!

Carry your 20 gauge.....pass on "long shots" (even with a 12 gauge) and shoot at the bird's head, not the ass.

Enjoy your 20 gauge

AzGuy
i hav laughed my wotsits off at that post
Fantastic
i shoot a 20 gauge in everday life and hav a 12 semi-auto just for the serious stuff
but a 28
life rocks,
how do you find yours
struggling a little with mine at the mo but will continue to endeavor

Hunting here in the Dakota's, I've always used a 20, either a SXS or O/U and have no problem killing birds. Confidence in your shooting ability and equipment is very important though.

You can't get a 1 1/2 oz load in a 20 ga so that takes away the 1 1/4 oz comparison. If I lived in Pheasant country I might shoot a smaller ga but after the first week end the birds get wilder and run before the flush. We are having more difficulty each year getting the birds to hold for the Shorthairs. Lots of young birds flush close on opening week end but after they get shot at a few times they wise up fast.

Hawkeye47

I have killed lots of pheasants with both I really can't see much of a differants in them.

My go to load for 20 ga was 1/18th oz of lead 6's at just under 1200fps. My 12 ga load is 1/14th oz. of 6's.around 1300fps My buddys tell me they can't see any differants. They seem amazed at the ranges I kill birds with the 20 ga.

I normlly don't load it but copper plated shot seems to work a bit better then plain lead.

If they are in reasonable range I perfer under 40 yards 30 is much better. If one is on them they go down with the 12 or 20 If one is not they keep on flying no matter what one is shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by Richard E:
AzGuy
i hav laughed my wotsits off at that post
Fantastic
i shoot a 20 gauge in everday life and hav a 12 semi-auto just for the serious stuff
but a 28
life rocks,
how do you find yours
struggling a little with mine at the mo but will continue to endeavor

Richard,

Life does rock...so does my 28 gauge Parker.

Been shooting it for about the last 20 years.

Just keep shooting your 20...only shoot at appropriate distances with proper chokes and form you will do just fine

I hunt with both.

Early in the season I hunt with my lighter 20. Shots tend to not be as far, the birds aren't as wild, and there are more birds so passing on one is no big deal.

Later in the season the birds get fewer, smarter, and more wild so I tend to shoot more 12 gauge.

ddj

Then of course there is the 16 gauge

One of my dad's cousins gave me a model 12 he bought in the 50s. He told me he purchased it for hunting pheasant. It is full choke and I will attest to the fact that for me it works miracles with 1-1/4--1-3/8 of #4. I got a pre WWII Browning 16 from my dad's uncle that got little use until I found 2.5 inch shells. I like 1 oz of nickel plated #5 or #6---it rocks! Then there is my modern mfg Brwng Sweet Sixteen steel shot approved. I load 1 oz of Hevi-shot #6 or #7.5 and it is pure joy! I like that load on everything but waterfowl. Then I gotta step up to #4 Hevi. I won't shoot anything bigger than #4 in my 16s. They are lightweight, performance is alot closer to a 12 than a 20, and they work great for me.

Andy

+1 for twilli observation.
I used to slay them with my Parker 12 Steel Shot Special until I took my new Parker 20 guage along also. Shot the twelve on Saturday and the twenty on Sunday and ---- did as well with the 20 as the the 12. Now the 12 stays home.
One of our guides helped this along by proposing a morning shoot contest to see which group shot the most birds in the head and announce the results at the noon break. Surprise - everyones average went way up!
Try it and see -

I guess it depends on how bad you want to kill a pheasant. Personally, walking my ass off day in and day out ON WILD BIRDS (the post above, I'll bet dollars to doughnuts refers to preserve hunting, which is an entirely different kettle of fish), I'm shooting at any cock bird that I consider killable, which includes a helluva lot of birds that any reasonable hunter with MOST lead 20 or 28 ga loads will pass on. If I lived in pheasant country where I could go out most afternoons and jump a few birds, I'd be a lot more genteel in my choice of gauges and loads.

If anyone thinks a 20 is just as good as a 12, I invite you to step up to a skeet range, back up about 10 to 15 yards behind the standard station positions (which will still put your breaking distance under or about 40 yds) on 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6, shoot a round or 3, and we'll see what scores best, the 20 or the 12.

Being naturally dumb, I always jump into the argument about 12 vs 20. The 12 has more pellets than a 20. All science aside, that is point #1 about the 12. Point #2 is that, at 40 yards the 12 still has more pellets out there and so the bird has fewer "holes" to fly through. I am with Gatogordo, totally. No one is knocking the 20. It's simply that in a 12 vs 20 argument, it's a case of the "good little man" vs the "good big man". In boxing, the record shows who generally wins. Same with 12 vs 20. (To put it another way, asking the 20 to do the work of a 12 is "A bridge too far")

I once had the great pleasure of spending a week as part of a group red deer stalking trip in Scotland, led by the author Gene Hill. One evening, I got to talking about bird shooting and shotguns with Mr. Hill, and he said something I'll never forget. Gene said to me "Anything a 20 gauge will do, a 12 gauge will do better." I'll never forget his comment.

Having said that, I do enjoy occasionally shooting a 20 gauge, and especially a 28 gauge. But when I'm serious about putting birds in the bag, I always shoot a 2 3/4" 12 gauge with improved cylinder. That combination has served me especially well for the last 25 years.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shack:
Trust me on this, as you age you will definitely trend toward replacing that heavy 12 with a lightweight 20. It took decades of pheasant hunting in about four states to arrive at that conclusion.



Shack is spot on. The only determining factors
are aging and gun weight. Well, not really. The 16 gauge and the 20 gauge both have smaller frames and thus easier to handle and manipulate.

The weight factor is moot, and no longer deserves comment. My proof of that can easily be seen by the advertised weights on many of the newer 12 gauge O/U shotguns. Autoloaders may well be a different story? SXSs always were lighter.

The real determining factor, IMHO, is the COST
of the bird gun! The better, and lighter weight guns simply cost more, although bargains can be found.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti...m.asp?Item=135192110

http://www.gunbroker.com/Aucti...m.asp?Item=135297636

Gents,
Please understand - I was not comparing the effectiveness of a 20 with that of a 12. I merely said that I shoot as well with the 20 sxs (been shooting Parker 20 SxS since a teenager) as the twelve and therefore prefer it for all upland game.
I do use the 12 for geese and sandhill cranes, but have seen my favorite sandhill outfitter/guide, Mark Meissenburg of Panhandles Best, slay the cranes with his 20 as far out as were the guys with the 10 guages. Of course, he does that for a living and almost always shoots them in the head and rarely misses; I have never seen him miss.
Back to twilli.
PS I also use the SxS 20 on sporting clays - makes it more sporting, you know.

crshelton:

Being too quick on the draw I didn't realize that you were were a sxs man. (I'm so old that when we meant "sxs" we said "double". (An O&U was just that, an "over and under") In view of how you use a 20 I withdraw all sneering remarks about somebody comparing a 20 to a 12.

quote:

Originally posted by 510wells:
Then of course there is the 16 gauge

got one of those aswell
sxs hammer
good old Thomas Wild

Over the last several 15 years I have done extensive pheasant hunting. I now leave my 12ga. at home and either and either take my 20ga or my 28ga. Yes, the 28 ga. is plenty with pen raised pheasants. Use good shot and the proper chokes and keep your head down when shooting. Skip the magnum loads. John

I carried my S&W pump 12 for over thirty years and did great on Pheasants. Considered my Beretta 682S 20 my quail gun.

Now my pump only goes turkey and waterfowl hunting. The 20 kills pheasants better than the 12 ever did because I shoot it better and it kills just as good if not better than the 12.

I handload everything except my 20 guage pheasant loads. I haven't been able to build a load that equals Fiocchis' Golden Pheasants.

quote:

Originally posted by Doctor D:
I carried my S&W pump 12 for over thirty years and did great on Pheasants. Considered my Beretta 682S 20 my quail gun.

Now my pump only goes turkey and waterfowl hunting. The 20 kills pheasants better than the 12 ever did because I shoot it better and it kills just as good if not better than the 12.

I handload everything except my 20 guage pheasant loads. I haven't been able to build a load that equals Fiocchis' Golden Pheasants.

Well said, I have used nothing but my superposed lightning 20ga for at least the last 15+ years on both wild and pen raised birds. Ditto on the golden pheasqnt loads.

I'm going to repeat this one time but before doing so I want to make it clear that I don't care if you use a slingshot for pheasants, if it suits your needs, it shickles the tit out of me.

If anyone thinks a 20 is just as good as a 12 for pheasants, back up about 10 to 15 yards behind stations 2 thru 6 on a skeet range and shoot about 75 rounds of 12 vs 20. Hard to compare apples to apples but there is no question the 12 will break more birds IN MY EXPERIENCE. As I've said before, an expert with a 20 will outshoot most people with a 12 but most people are not experts and they need all the help they can get IF their goal is maximum birds killed per shot.

Back up 15 yards, which makes your breaking distance about 40 yards and you'll be absolutely AMAZED at how few birds most people can break, even good skeet shooters. All this with a low gun, of course.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I'm going to repeat this one time but before doing so I want to make it clear that I don't care if you use a slingshot for pheasants, if it suits your needs, it shickles the tit out of me.

If anyone thinks a 20 is just as good as a 12 for pheasants, back up about 10 to 15 yards behind stations 2 thru 6 on a skeet range and shoot about 75 rounds of 12 vs 20. Hard to compare apples to apples but there is no question the 12 will break more birds IN MY EXPERIENCE. As I've said before, an expert with a 20 will outshoot most people with a 12 but most people are not experts and they need all the help they can get IF their goal is maximum birds killed per shot.

Back up 15 yards, which makes your breaking distance about 40 yards and you'll be absolutely AMAZED at how few birds most people can break, even good skeet shooters. All this with a low gun, of course.

Where we hunt wild bird the shots are more like Internatioal trap than skeet. FS

quote:

Originally posted by Doctor D:
I carried my S&W pump 12 for over thirty years and did great on Pheasants. Considered my Beretta 682S 20 my quail gun.

Now my pump only goes turkey and waterfowl hunting. The 20 kills pheasants better than the 12 ever did because I shoot it better and it kills just as good if not better than the 12.

I handload everything except my 20 guage pheasant loads. I haven't been able to build a load that equals Fiocchis' Golden Pheasants.

I had a big shoulder problem for a few years and I had to switch to a 20 gauge. I like to shoot 1/2 dozen sporting clays events and hunt in the fall. I found a Beretta Teknys 20 gauge that seemed to fit well with 28 inch barrel. I shot the hell out of that gun and still do.
I think that if a fellow has shot a bunch of 20 gauge in his life that he can do as well as any man with any other gauge.
I had an interesting situation in a duck blind a couple of years ago with a fellow from California. He was shooting 3 1/2 inch Fasteel in 12 gauge of course. I was shooting my 20 gauge with Kents Tungsten matrix. There was one duck trying to get away in excess of 50 yards. I held about 1 foot under and hit the switch and down she came. Buddy turns to me and says "I thought that bird was way out of range" To which I responded "for you maybe it was" The point I'm trying to make is that some of us are just better shots than others, don't matter which gauge. FS

JMHO but pheasant hunting is just barely sporting, regardless of guage. I can't recall missing one.....I'm sure I have but it ain't often. Woodcock on occasion, on grouse missing is the norm. Sumbitches know how to stay behind trees. Just missed one though(of course)this morning in my truck coming home from HRC training with the pup. Flew right across my windshield and landed in a low branch 5' off the road plain as day.

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
JMHO but pheasant hunting is just barely sporting, regardless of guage. I can't recall missing one.....I'm sure I have but it ain't often. Woodcock on occasion, on grouse missing is the norm. Sumbitches know how to stay behind trees. Just missed one though(of course)this morning in my truck coming home from HRC training with the pup. Flew right across my windshield and landed in a low branch 5' off the road plain as day.

And you did park and let Nelly get a snoot full of that wild bird scent, right?

Norton:

You know? I'm really beginning to like you! (even if you do hunt with KG, an obviously deluded Bosox fan) You find pheasants easy? (South Dakota makes a lot of money from inviting out of staters to "hunt" pheasants. It is somewhat similar to shooting trap in my opinion (slow target against open sky) I shot pheasants in cornfields where the cornstalks stood in October (before the combines came along) and where I chased the pheasant to the stone wall (and trying to catch up before he could sneak over the wall without flying) and it was hard work, I assure you. I also shot pheasants that we called "brush pheasants" - they flew suddenly from the side of a deep bruah ravine -and, believe me, they were moving by the time I saw them! However, I do agree with your basic premise - pheasants against an open sky are a ridiculously easy target and not worthy of a wing shooter. (the slow rise like a heavy bomber airplane taking off and the lack of manoeuver in doing so doesn't help either) (You did make an advocate on your side when you admitted that people missed on ruffed grouse. My average was about 8 birds for a box of shells on that darn bird)

Gerry, let me put this into perspective a bit: in NH and MA there are no wild pheasants. The ones we shoot for dinner are planted by the state, and are as ill-equipped to survive once released as you or I would be left naked on Antartica. As such, they're ridiculously easy to kill, as has been pointed out. Hell, buds of mine have had their dogs bring back *live* ones that haven't been shot, to give you an idea. That all said, they're good eating. But difficult to hunt? Here? Nah. Still, when a rooster gets up under foot raising holy hell with his cackling, it's good fun.

Gerry, Norton and I will be on LI for some brant with a friend in a few months. Lunch is on Norton if you can make it out. I'll try my best to be civil--even if I will be in enemy territory, and in the presence of evil.

KG:

Frankly, I'm astonished that ruffed grouse can be raised and planted at all. In my youth it was deemed an impossibility. (To be truthful, I still find it doubtful as anything more than a "plant and shoot" proposition - like any "preserve" with pheasants. Pheasants, of course, can be planted -and I have witnessed the results. ( The birds shot at and wounded and lost {the preserve dogs don't get them all} or even the birds that got planted yesterday and zeroed in by predators, furry and winged, seem to end up as the dinner of foxes and chicken hawks) (BTW, if you think the cackle of a pheasant is noisy - try a ruff coming up from almost under your feet - and I speak of that as being almost literally under your feet. (I have sat down on a log, eaten my sandwich, stood up - and have a ruff explode almost from a few feet away -that's how good the camoflage is. (Like many grouse hunters of my day, we didn't use a dog. A dog was useful to retrieve but experienced hunters knew how to track where the bird fell. BTW,that's why I doubt stories of "doubles" on grouse -because you had to jkeep your eye on the bird you shot at to see where it fell so I guess I just convicted myself about shooting "doubles" on ruffed grouse because a dog would make the difference in the split seconds. Being a stubborn Mick, I still don't think it would make any difference )