Following on to my last post "Side by side or OU" I have been looking around as to what is available.

There are 2 second hand SS 12ga for exactly the same price and in very similar condition as well as chokes being the same. If just on reputation what would you go for the AYA Aguirret or Fred Williams London and Birmingham?

The Fred Williams is a bit short but that can easily be sorted out.

Thanks

I can't really reasonably compare them since I'm not all that familiar with Fred Williams. Frankly, for the same price and same condition, I'd lean towards the Birmingham maker.

Have you taken the forends off and tested them for tightness? This doesn't require waving the guns around like wands, just take the forend off and try to move the barrels, both up and down and side to side, with one hand while holding on to the action by the butt stock. A very small amount of movement is fairly normal and acceptable, much more than that and it indicates heavy use or poorer construction. Less is better in this case. I've got a more than century old 10 ga. W.C. Scott that has seen hard use but is still amazingly tight on face. Does the F. Williams have a cross bolt? If it does and all other things being equal, again, I'd lean towards it.

All that said, AYA has a good reputation and I wouldn't hesitate to buy one.

Finally, which one feels best to you when you pick it up and mount it. Buy that one.

I agree with all Gatogordo said. The Fred Williams I've never run across in the U.S. The AYA however is found here. But not in great numbers. It's somewhat popular with lovers of fine, older shotguns. Usually the same guys who like the older U.S. brands that have long been out of production - Parker, L.C. Smith, A.H. Fox, original Win Model 21 and the like.

The AYA up for sale at my gunsmith's is a very handsome sidelock that once belonged to a local well-known hunter. It's a straight stock. Personally, I much prefer a pistol grip stock. And it has the slender forearm. I prefer a full forearm. I find it more comfortable and my finger tips don't get burned as bad on a shoot where you're going thru lots of shells fast.

It also has a full choke in one barrel which can't be used with steel shot and it has no provision for screw-in type chokes. Those I consider important. I didn't in the past, but now I think it's a good thing because of changing gov't requirements for shot pellets and to make your gun a "one stop shopping" piece for all game. This particular one is also IMO too light to comfortably shoot the harder kicking loads and is chambered for only 2 3/4". And, it's also rather expensive. You can get a fine used S/S or O/U Browning or Ithaca-SKB or an O/U Win. 101 or Charles Daly for far less money. There's also the Win. 23 (if it hasn't gotten too expensive) and various knock-offs on it...there was one called the Classic Double..although I haven't seen any recently. All these will be Japanese made guns. Some have screw-in chokes, some don't. The older ones usually don't and for that reason are cheaper.

Anyway, check the length of pull. The end of the stock should touch or almost touch the inside bend of your elbow. Check to see if it's on target when you shoulder it. Think about the barrel length. 28" or 30 is OK for ducks but I'd want 28 and preferably 26 for birds that flush from nearby. 28 is usually considered the all around compromise length.

One important thing..make sure it's not already worn out. On used guns a fine, clean looking exterior can hide mechanical problems that are difficult and expensive to fix. I now have an A.H. Fox at the smith because of that. I bought it not knowing how much it had actually been used. It double fires and opens when fired. Sure wish I'd tested it in advance.

Parting shot...I went on a dove shoot the other day and there was this farm kid who was consistently knocking down birds most wouldn't even shoot at...I mean up to 50 yards and moving really fast. Apparently he was just naturally gifted or had figured out the lead and angles on high birds. Even he wasn't sure how. What was he using? He had a very plain used condition Rem. 1100 autoloader that someone had given him..you'd be doing good to get $100 for it in today's world. There's a point with that I sometimes think about; what am I really trying to do...kill game or make a fashion statement??

Great post, Shack.

quote:

Originally posted by Shack:
There's a point with that I sometimes think about; what am I really trying to do...kill game or make a fashion statement??

Funny you mention this point......when I went to the Orvis Sandanona sporting clays range in NY a few years ago it was clear to me that the latter was more important to the folks there. A lot of tradition and a gentleman's place to shoot but just greasy with Wall St. tools in Range Rovers wearing all the right shooting clothes. Yuck.........once through was enough for me.....BTW it was $350 for one session through the course (took about an hour or so).

Thank-you for the detailed response - I have learnt a lot from you guys