Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am intrigued by these 1000+ shots per day on dove hunts in Uruguay and Argentina. I might have to try it.

When you go on these hunts do you take just one shotgun or bring a spare, too? What choke do you use? What shotgun holds up the best? I have a few Browning Auto 5's that are in great shape, and I was thinking of taking one or two of them to South America.

Also, what type of shooting jacket do you wear for a 1000+ round day?

I only shoot 12 gauge shotguns. I've had 20 gauges, and never got excited about them.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Chris,

Seeing the different posts that you have I take it you are an avid wing shooter yourself! Dove hunting in Argentina and Uruguay is some of the best trips I have ever been on, doves by the thousands, beautiful estancias, great food and drinks, there is nothing else like it! I have taken two guns a few times and then also rented guns from the lodges as well on a few trips. If you take your own gun I would recommend two because of the high volume that you will be shooting at and that always increases the chance of gun failure. In my opinion the best semi autos out there that I would recommend would be either the Benelli's or the Beretta's. I have never shot an A-5 down there with that amount of shells but I wouldn's see why it wouldn't hold up but don't quote me on that. Tweleve gauge is fine but the more and more shells you shoot the more and more your shoulder is going to hurt. I personally use a PAST slip on recoil reducing pad that I either wear under my shirt or out side my jacket. If you have any other questions please feel free to email me and I can turn you in the right direction.

Regards,

Cameron Kulbeth

cameron@safaritrackers.com

Browning A-5's are great. I guide birdshooting safaris and two of my clients use them.Never once failed any of them. Stick to light loads and make sure you have plenty of ammo.Quarter choke is about perfect. Unless its very cold you should wear light clothing and keep your ammo in a plastic or metal box next to you. The spare shotgun is for when the first either has a mechanical failure and/or when the barrel gets too hot.

I haven't been down there but if I ever go I have already thought it over and decided on the gun choice. I'm leaving mine at home and renting one.

If it was a real good dove shoot closer to home in the states, I do take a spare sometimes. Maybe I just want to try a different gun or gauge and it doesn't hurt to have it handy in case of problems. Twice those problems arose and a spare saved the hunt. Once the spare was a Parker and the other time it was a Win Model 12. Both in 12 ga heavy duck guns with full chokes, which is what I use for doves. They have the reach I like for high flyers.

Gentlemen:

Thank you for your advice.

LAL: Yup, I'm going to keep the extra quarter choke Browning A-5 as a spare.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

I have been several times. I own several A-5's (my favorite shotgun) and several Benelli's. My advice would be to not take the A-5's. The recoil is much more severe and over a few days, it will make a big difference.

Try the Evoshield shirts. They are infinitely better than a PAST pad. I shot 6,000 rounds in 3 days and didn't even have a red mark on me.

Good luck. It is lots of fun.

Dear Larry Shores:

Thank you for your advice.

What choke did you use on the doves? Do they fly in high or low?

As to the A-5 recoil, here's my take on it.

I have a 1980 Japanese Light 12 Auto 5 2 3/4" that I shot with the original bushings, springs, etc. It had a bit less kick than my 12 gauge Superposed, but it felt and sounded like an AR-15, kinda noisy.

After I changed out the bronze bushing, friction ring, recoil spring and mainspring, the recoil dropped dramatically even while shooting full house magnum handloads with 1 1/2 ounces of shot.

On the other hand, I'm not sure that I want to subject one or more of the older 1950's Auto 5's that I have to 5-6000 rounds on one hunt. 1980's/1990's Japanese manufacture Auto 5's or a Benelli, sure.

I'll take a look at the Evoshield shirt.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Birds are birds. They fly when and where they like.

Probably 90%+ of the time, I use a modified choke. There have been times that I changed to improved cylinder because they were so low. I can think of one occasion when I changed to full because they were all so high. Keep in mind that they may be close at your shooting station and higher than hell at the next or vice versa.

A lot of people think the A-5 will not hold up to the volume of shooting. It is interesting that not a single one of the lodges I have gone to have any Browning autoloaders. They all have Benelli's or Beretta's. That tells me a lot.

I did take my Benelli Super Black Eagle and an A-5 to shoot ducks one year. Believe me, the recoil on the SBE is a small fraction of the A-5. I don't even take an A-5 any more.

Honestly, even with a 20 gauge, you get beat up pretty badly after shooting 2,000 rounds a day.

Good luck.

my advise for what little its worth is to forget the 12 ga. like larry says 2000 rds+ per day and you're going to get pretty well beat to chit. in that volume the only guns i find to hold up are o/u or sxs. i know alot of guy like the benellis, but keeping them clean enuf to function was a factor for me. again for what its worth i prefered a 28 ga

Generally one finds one of 2 types of shells down there. There are the Cazas and the Fiochis.

The Cazas suck and are dirty as hell. This will cause one to have to clean their guns often no matter what brand or type of gun. For example, even with my Citori, the chambers had to be cleaned about every 100 rounds. They wouldn't eject.

The Fiochis are far better but more expensive. You can go longer between cleanings with these. Plus they knock the birds down far better.

Cleaning is no big deal as the bird boys carry cleaning equipment with them. IN 5 minutes or less they will have you shooting again.

I tried a 28 gauge down there. I shot a really good percentage (sarcastic). I think i killed 3 birds with one box. I just could not hit them. I went back to my 20 and wore them out. That gun didn't fit me. This is one of the reasons I like to shoot my own gun.

Hi Chris,
You have two options.

1) Take your own shotgun.
2) Rent at the lodge

There are pros and cons for both options. But before we discuss them lets first find out what your shooting threshold is going to be.

LOW - 250 rounds before lunch, 250 after lunch
MEDIUM - 500 rounds before lunch, 500 after lunch
HIGH - 1,000 round PLUS before lunch, 1000 PLUS after lunch

So if the threshold is LOW then by all means take your personal shotgun. Take two if you want peace of mind.

If the threshold is MEDIUM to HIGH then I would suggest renting a 20 gauge semi-automatic at the lodge. You do not have to worry about lost luggage, broken parts, expensive repairs upon return, etc.

1,000 rounds or more per day for 3 or 4 days is a lot of wear and tear on a shotgun. Especially if it is a family heirloom, or your favorite gun, why put it through the harsh punishment. Does not matter if you have over/under or semi-auto...when you are shooting medium to high volume, you will put a lot of wear and tear on your personal gun.

Also, in order for a gun to work properly the lodge staff (from a good lodge) will completely clean the gun once at lunch and once at dinner. If you bring your own gun then you have to worry about cleaning the gun. By renting a gun, you are going to save yourself a lot of headaches. Enjoy some siesta time and focus on shooting instead of being a gun cleaner or a gun smith.

Now say you are real particular about the gun you shoot and you have a pair of Krieghoff's in 20 gauge or pair of sweet shooting Perazzi's that master gunfitters in Europe have fitted to your dimensions and shooting style then absolutely take that K-gun or P-gun...they will hold up to the high-volume shooting.

Will your favorite pump gun hold up ? You will need shoulder surgery upon return if you end up taking a pump gun to Argentina for a high volume shoot...unless of course you are superman.

Benelli has come out with a high volume semi-auto called "Cordoba" in 20 gauge. So something like that will definitely hold up for high volume shooting. However I would advise the owner to take 2 Cordobas and give the gun rest after shooting 25 shells so it can cool off. Then again someone (you or the lodge staff) will need to clean it at lunch time and at end of day.

Sorry for the long post, I can keep writing for a long time on this subject. Issue is that you do not want to take your personal gun that is not designed for high-volume shooting. A5 in my opinion will be ok for LOW threshold...probably not for Medium or High level of shooting.

Gun rentals are usually Beretta or Benelli in 20 gauge at about $50 per day. In many cases the gun rental cost is included in the package cost.

Feel free to PM me or call me if you have any questions, I will be glad to answer them for you.

Here is the link to some pics from 2 weeks ago.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...4121043/m/9341015421

Collector,

I've also been thinking of trying one of the South American dove hunts and read your above post with interest.

And of course have some questions.

I prefer Berettas and am 6'3" so really do need a bit longer length of pull than most stock guns come with.

I heard you about cleaning and all but have found that of the autos the Berettas kick less that Benelli (yes, I have some of each). I've also heard the besides Benelli Berettas are the rental guns of choice down there.

What would you recommend in the 20 gauge Beretta line to bring?

Thanks for your time.

Roi

I've said this before and I don't intend to get in another pissing match about it, but IF you intend to take advantage of the volume of birds available and shoot a thousand or more, sometimes many more, shells per day then IMO taking an A5 is masochism in action. In other words, don't. OTOH, it is your shoulder, your shoot, and your money, and if shooting an A5 in 12 ga is really what you want to do, then by all means have at it. I suspect that along about hour 3 IF you shoot volumes, and especially if your shoulder is not used to shooting a lot of shotgun shells, you'll be looking for a rental gun or your shoulder and upper arm is much tougher than most.

510wells

If you enjoy shooting shotguns (Upland Birds, Waterfowl, Skeet, Trap, Sporting Clays, FITASC) then a pilgrimage to Argentina for doves must be at the top of your list....there is nothing like it in the whole world...no other volume shooting promise in any other part of the world can hold a candle to a high volume Cordoba dove shoot. Whenever you would like to go please contact me and I will give you an apples to apples comparison on our shooting packages.

OK now to answer your questions.

Beretta or Benelli
Benellis are inertia operated and Beretta semi-autos are gas operated. Since gas operated guns have less recoil, so if everything was the same (weight, length, shape) a Beretta will kick less than a Benelli. Beretta's are a bit cumbersome to clean properly...Benelli's are a piece of cake and a delight to clean and put together in no time. So pluses and minuses to both.

Length of Pull
Most factory guns come with a 14 and some change inches length of pull. Probably quite short for you as you said you are 6'3". Another factor is length of arms, length of neck, shape of face...they can all effect the length of pull. I am 6'2" and I shoot 15 plus length of pull. So if you know that a 15 1/4" works best for you, then a good lodge (like mine) should be able to tell you upfront that we will have two guns reserved for you with 14 3/4" length of pull. Then you have two options.
Go to a local gun store and pick up a 1/2 in Kick eeze pad and some masking tape. You can fit the pad to the gun and you will be golden. Or (highly recommended) you can buy a 1/2" thick shoulder shooting pad made by Cabelas or Past and you will be right at 14 3/4" plus 1/2" = 15 1/4". So many ways to skin the cat.

Please look at the pictures link I posted above, all my guys including myself have shoulder pads on. I did a bit of gun fitting for everyone the first day and everyone was dead on. It is a small but overlooked detail, not many people know about gun fit or how to fit a gun properly to a shooter. The difference could be shooting 30% or 65% success rate.

Beretta 20 Gauge Recommendation
My recommendation would be a Beretta 20 Gauge AL391 Gold Teknys with 30" barrels. Sweetest shooting gun Beretta ever made...if you can get a Soft-touch recoil system put on it you can probably shoot 6,000 rounds in a day without hurting your shoulder. Second option would be a Beretta 20 Ga Urika in 391 with 28" barrels.....or any of the older Beretta semi-autos (older 390 models) with 26" or 28" barrels in 20 ga.

Gentlemen:

As I see it, it boils down to two options for me:

1. Pick up a 12 gauge Japanese made Auto 5, re-spring, re-bush and re-grease it, then go out and shoot 500 rounds of heavy trap loads with a brand new recoil pad, and see if I can take, or

2. rent a 20 gauge shotgun at the lodge.

Thanks again for all of your advice.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

Yale, on just the clay pidgeon comparison idea I may be able to help a little, because I do a lot of that. I have shot a Rem Model 11 in 20 ga quite a bit on the club's skeet range. As you know it's the same design as the Auto 5 (both being engineered by John Browning). Based on that I really don't think you want to contemplate using the Auto 5, especially in 12 ga to put up the kind of numbers being discussed here for Argentinian doves. The main problem being, the Auto 5 and Rem 11 are long recoil op rather than gas op.

To say it again, I find just four boxes of 7/8 oz in it not at all pleasant, let alone what's being talked about here. It's a definite gun headache and next day sore shoulder.

I also shoot trap with a Rem 11-87. That's 12 ga in 1 1/8 oz loads, which I guess you could call heavy trap. It of course is a recoil softening gas op. Four boxes is OK in it. The reason I mention four boxes is because 100 rounds is what we typically shoot. I also do the same with a Browning O/U Citori. Two boxes is OK, but four can start to get into sore shoulder territory depending of course on the type loads. There is such a thing as a "low recoil" load, but it's not that effective IMO for trap unless you get the shot off super fast. And, I also shoot the BT-99 single barrel trap shotgun, but that's outside the scope of this discussion.

For bird hunting in the states, I have also used the Rem 11 and a Browning Sweet 16 (a form of A-5) for quail and, while a few boxes under hunting conditions is OK, I certainly wouldn't want to do 10 boxes at a time let alone 40 or more.

Most of my guns don't have a recoil pad to amount to anything. But I have a feeling that adding one will not make the kind of difference needed here.

I believe what collector set out above sounds like real good advice on what guns to use. Fwiw I'd rent one.

Dear Shack:

I have among other Auto 5's a 1980 Japanese manufacture Light 12. With the original springs, friction ring and bronze friction piece, it had a weird "double shuffle" and noticeable recoil.

I probably put 100 rounds though it one session to get used to it. It has a solid plastic buttplate. I received no headache or shoulder ache with a light jacket on.

After I replaced the recoil spring, action spring, friction ring and bronze friction piece, and after stripping it down and re-greasing it, including lighly oiling the magazine tube, the recoil dropped immensely. Again I put about 100 rounds through it of assorted handloads from 1310 FPS dove loads with 1 1/8 ounces of 7 1/2 shot to full house 2 3/4" magnum 1 1/2 ounce loads at 1260 fps and steel shot 1 1/8 loads at 1425 fps.

It was amazing the reduction in recoil with the new springs and bushings. Also, no more double shuffle.

I've had gas operated Brownings, etc., and this Auto 5 has only slightly more felt recoil.

If you tear an Auto 5 down, you will see an impression of the rear of the bolt in the back of the hump back inside the receiver. But when you measure the reset when the bolt splits off from the barrel extension at the rearward travel, the bolt should not hit the inside of the receiver.

When it hits, you get the double shuffle.

After replacing the springs, etc., and greasing it up properly, it does not appear that the bolt hits the receiver, and no more double shuffle which accounts for the great reduction in recoil.

To me John Browning could not have designed a shotgun that would be that uncomfortable to shoot, and after you replace the above parts and properly lubricate it, it isn't.

Now my 3 1/2" Beretta over and under was a major bitch after 50 full house magnum turkey rounds. I dumped it, it really gave me a headache.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis

It sounds like you're on top of your A-5 maintenance. And you apparently tolerate recoil well. That Rem 11 was my first shotgun. I first fired it in the mid '50s. At that age I then thought the recoil breath taking. Actually, it was well worn even then. I've always been conscious of a double shuffle effect with it as well as hearing the recoil spring work. Kind of distinctive "wheezing" sound. But, it's held up surprisingly well over the decades. The only problem has been of late, with failing to load or feed from the mag properly. That cost me a trip to the smith.

Which reminds me, I've taken that little 20 ga Model 11 on some of those pheasant trips mentioned in the other thread. Glad I had another gun along. The malfunction could have turned up then. As it was, it nearly ruined a quail hunt but for having still another spare along.

I've never shot the Beretta O/U but have shot a Beretta SxS and didn't care for the recoil. It was just a 12 ga standard 2 3/4" model and shouldn't have been too bad compared to other double shotguns I've owned or shot. But it was. Some guns are just that way. Something about apparent recoil or maybe balance. I don't know. I used to have an O/U Ithaca SKB that way too. Chopping kick like a mule. That's why it's no longer around.

Your idea of 500 rounds of trap first before Argentina sounds wise. But like I said, I'd rent one. Aside from the recoil, there are all the other reasons to leave ours at home.

For me, I like to soak up my recoil in shotguns with either a gas op or plenty of weight in the gun.

Dear Shack:

You are right about shotgun fit, weight and recoil.

I have learned more about shotgun fit in the past 10 months than in the past 30 years.

I lucked out at age 14, and bought a Savage 444 O/U in 12 gauge that fit like a glove. It took me 10 years to find a replacement that fit as well, but I did last spring, an unfired 1973 Browning Superposed at Cabelas.

The Auto 5's that I have all have very dissimilar stock dimensions. For example, I am finshing the restoration on a 1955 standard weight, (which balances much better than the light 12's with a ventilated rib barrel) and its comb and heel drop are much less than the others I have.

The 1980 Japanese Light 12 balances, okay, but the buttstock has very dense wood which makes it balance better. The other light 12's are nose heavy.

My Model 12 when I first shot it gave me a nice shoulder bruise. But I have learned how to shoulder it properly now. It just fits differently based upon the tighter pistol grip. All of my other shotguns have had more open pistol grips.

I have experimented with loads of new shotguns over the past 15 years, but those older ones, particularly the 1950's ones, just have a feel that I can't really describe. I just like them.

Sincerely,

Chris Bemis