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My grandfather resantly passed away and he left me his weatherby orion. Me and my dad went on a farwell pheasnt hunt to remember him and i just used the chokes he had in the gun. They were both improved cylinder. Do you think i should stick with this combination or go with an improved on top and modified on the bottom. It is a 12 GA. Thanks for youre suggestions. | ||
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You don't mention in what state you are hunting pheasants or at what time of Fall. In early season,the chokes sound find. Pheasants really can take shot sometimes and if shot at later in season (when they get up farther away), I'm not so sure about the improved cylinder. A modified choke may do better then for a first shot. Just my thoughts. | |||
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Jlandon, first, welcome to AR. I like IC and Modified. I shoot over dogs and at times the Modified can be a bit tight for a second shot. I would go a bit tighter with your second barrel. Judge where your shots are and go from there. If you are walking up birds, it is unlikely they will hold for you. More likely they will flush at the edge of cover. If your shots are at 30 to 35 yards I would be using Modified. | |||
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Some good advice. It really is up to a few things.... For myself, I prefer improved and modified. But I use Fiochi Golden Pheasant which is a heavy load of nickel plated #5's. For me the combination of chokes and load work fine. I suggest you spend a few hours and pattern the gun with your preferred pheasant load. That will you tell more than any one on the net can. By the way, sorry about your grandfather. Sounds like you were close. Having his gun will always be special.  | |||
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Patterning and FIocchi nickel plated fives is good advice. I shoot a Lightening 20 exclusively on pheasants in SD. When I got the gun, it was bored Full and improved modified, which is tighter than modified. I could not hit $hit with it so I opened up both barrels to about something a little more open than modified; something between mod and IC. I then pattererned it to see what I had and it amazed me. Nice even patterns about equal to mod. The point being, just because it says mod or full on the tube, it don't mean much until you shoot it at the paterning board, and by the way, with the ammo you intend to shoot. One brand will shoot different than another. For later season birds, I normally back up the first 2 3/4" with a 3". I am a really good shot too! Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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I have hunted pheasants for a lot of years mostly in Nebraska.After a lot of shooting and experimenting with different chokes and loads,found that IC 12 gauge 1oz 7 1/2 shot and 3 1/4 dr.of powder worked best for me,I know a lot of folks will disagree but I have had incredible sucess with this load.I once killed a cock flying perpendicular to me at 65 long paces.When it happened I figured lucky shot one pellet in the head,but up on cleaning the bird found he was hit hard with several pellets.My shotgun was a berreta 303.My uncle was a long time game warden around Peoria Illinois and he told me years ago that was the best load,but I wasnt convinced until I tried many other loads.I love a 20gauge and use them a lot especially for Hun,s but on pheasant unless you hammer them close dont have the killing power of a 12ga.w/regards | |||
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And oh yeah, I almost forgot. Customstox can't shoot worth a $hit. An I know. On another note, I am heading off for a celebrity shoot in Iowa tomorrow and will demonstrate my prowess. Won't be back until Sunday so sve the accolades 'til then. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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I am hunting in Michagan on preserves over dogs. So the shots are not far off. I use fiocci golden pheasant in #6. Sorry i havent replyed in a couple off days they have me working allot lately. Thank you for all youre suggestions. By the way what are youre thoughts on the weatherby. By the time my grandfather got it he had stoped bird hunting and used it to hunt deer with my dad. He only got two. Both out of the same herd one with the top barrel and one with the bottom. So what are youre thoughts on it for pheasant. It is the older model field grade two orion. | |||
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Jlandon: Wish I could help you out about the Weatherby but I simply never have used one. (That's not a criticism - simply an observation of fact) Preserve pheasants do go up much closer, of course - and because of that I would go with Gophershooter's observations about an IC and 7 1/2s. (BTW, why use an imported ammo? Support the American working man and buy American!)  ( I put a smiley but I'm only half kidding) Regards | |||
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Gophershooter: I read your remarks - and heard echoes of my father's advice when I was about 15 - and I'll be 76 in a few weeks. You mentioned shooting pheasants in Nebraska. When I first started hunting pheasants, there were no combines in my area. I often chased pheasants down a row of stalks -trying to push them to the stone wall -with me running behind them close enough so that they would fly rather than just run over the wall. My shots were often at 30-35 yards. I just had no faith in # 8s -or even 7 1/2s - and I was a devout believer that a modified choke "concentrated" the shot better to drop a bird that wasn't all that easy sometimes. My father no longer hunted so I had no actual example before me - so I read your post with a smile and thought - Gee! The old man was right after all!. | |||
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Gerry;I was the same way years ago couldnt imagine anyone attempting to kill a pheasant with any thing less than high brass shells and 5-6 shot. I had other prejudices as well,I couldnt imagine why anyone would own one of those wierd 28guages.Well guess what bought one a few years ago and love the thing.I have always liked the 20 but the 28 amazes me as to how hard it seems to hit.w/regards | |||
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Gophershooter: I have mentioned on another thread that I used to bring boxes of 28 ga. ammo for my bear hunting lodge owner's wife in Ontario years ago. She regularly shot ruffed grouse (the real kind, not spruce grouse). I always found it a thoroughly depressing sight - particularly after I was missing with a 12. Glad to hear you're enjoying the 28 ga. | |||
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Usely i use winchester or remington shells in my shotguns and federal for the rifles. So the only reason i used the imported ammo was because it had i pheasnt on the box and it was my first time pheasnt hunting. I know that is a stupid reason but i wanted to try something new. Thanks for writing back and for all of the comments. | |||
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The only way that Kobe will do any good at a celebrity shoot is if they let him shoot A CELEBRITY. And it better be a slow moving one at that.  | |||
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It was a great time. We shot sporting clays in the morning and pheasants in the after noon. Two days and about 250 rounds each all included in the entry fee and provided by winchester. Had continental breadfast in the morning, sandwiches and chile at noon and an hor'deuve lunch on Friday and a big steak dinner on Saturday at the fundraiser and auction. It was a benefit shoot, "Aim for the Cure" and was a cancer fundraiser and a great time. I hunted with two different celebities and they were both great shots. Only lost by three birds on the clays course to him and a great guy. Joel Hilgenberg. I think he played for Iowa and then the Bears. Sorry, I am not a sports fan. Jim Kobe 10841 Oxborough Ave So Bloomington MN 55437 952.884.6031 Professional member American Custom Gunmakers Guild | |||
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Jim, are you talking about JAY Hilgenberg? He played for the Bears for 12 years. Cayford could have told you that. He would be proud that I even remembered his name (something that escaped you, lol) and it is a rarity for me. Well, did you shoot any slow moving celebrities? I did hear that Texas was planning to have Lawyer tags for next year after the famous quail hunt. The cost is going to be $200 for the season. Seems a bit steep but it is to last all year and no limit. From their first response, they estimate that the tags will bring in a revenue for the game departement estimated at 3 billion dollars.  | |||
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Folks, Fiocchi ammo is made in Missouri...... They are also a very strong supporter of sportman's groups like Pheasants Forever, etc. IC and nickel fives have produced a lot of pheasant dinners for me. HTH, Dutch. Life's too short to hunt with an ugly dog. | |||
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Dutch: I am glad to be corrected and withdraw my remarks about Fiocchi as foreign ammo. I'm always amazed how much I learn every day on the internet! | |||
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If you look at the velocity figures for shotshell loads, you will see that almost all of them are in the 1180 to 1300 f.p.s. range, regardless of the gauge of the shotgun. So one gauge will not hit harder than another because how hard a pellet hits depends on its velocity, and since they all start out at the same velocity (say from a 12 gauge and a 28 gauge), and assuming the individual pellets are the same size (i.e. you are using the same size shot in both the 12 gauge and the 28 gauge) the individual pellets will have the same hitting power at the target. The only difference is that a larger gauge will have a larger amount of shot in the load, so the pattern will be denser. "How's that whole 'hopey-changey' thing working out for ya?" | |||
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I have heard nothing but great things about Fiocchi ammo especially the Golden Pheasant stuff that's nickle plated. Sipposed to kill like the Hammer of Thor. I used to, use copper plated 6s or 5s on pheasants and 7.5s copper plated on quail. All Federal ammo. But the distributor I get my ammo from just doesn't consistenly carry the stuff so will be looking at ordring some Fiocchi. Nice to hear its made in MO. | |||
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IC and Mod for pheasants, 7 1/2 early, 5 or 6 late. 3 1/4 dram good load, but 3 drams ok early. That being said, last year I killed a rooster stone dead at about 35 yards with an IC 20 and 7/8 oz 7 1/2, but thats an exception. Shot many of them with a 16 and 1 or 1 1/8 oz 6's in Montana. My pheasant gun right now is an Ansley Fox with Mod and Full, just cause I have it and won't ream it out. | |||
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I've been hunting birds with 12g full choked shotguns using Win AA trap hulls loaded with 35gr of Win 540 ,1 1/8oz of 6's @1400fps or 1 1/4oz of 6's @ 1330fps.All of this hype about high brass shells for game hunting is sports writer BS .I've used low brass Rem RXP's & Win AA's with Blue Dot & Win 540 for hunting grouse,pheasants,mtn quail,bandtailed pigeons, dove & chukar . | |||
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In my doubles I use IC and Mod. In my simi autos and pumps I use IC. I've kill lots with IC. seems to work well. | |||
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If I'm shooting over good dogs (and it's not late in the season) I like to shoot Skeet and Modified but if it's walk-up shooting then ImpCyle and Full .....if it's late season and no dogs then Improved Modified and Extra Full and I'm loading 5's in the 1st barrel and 4's in the 2nd. DB Bill aka Bill George | |||
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Day in, day out, I do most of my bird shooting of any type with IC and IM screwed in. Of course, you change them to meet the local conditions but I like a tighter choke for long second shots or the first shot on incomers which you take farther out (doesn't normally apply to pheasants, of course). If you have a fixed choke gun, then you can change the effective choke by using different types of loads. Premium loads usually increase the choke percentages by a 1/2 choke or so and cheaper lead loads will shoot more open. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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OK boys and girls, brass height has NOTHING to do with the load in the shell. A high brass load simply has high brass on the head and is in no wat faster or harder hitting than a low brass shell in and of it's self. For the Fiocchi golden pheasants lovers- the shot is soft and in nearly every case other than in 12 ga they pattern like crap IMO and that of many others I know. As for pheasant chokes, choke the gun for where the majority of your shots are coming. If that's 20 yards to 35 the cylinder and modified are a great combo. Pass on 50+ yard shots regardless of choke. For pheasants a general rule of thumb is one needs about 1.75 to 2 ft/lbs per pellet to adequately penetrate a phesant at most angles. A quick look at a pellet energy table show that launched at reasonable speed 1220-1250 fps a #7 pellet has this at 35 yards, a #6 at just past 45, a #5 pellet at nearly 60. Try to keep 190 to 300 pellets in the starting load. Given the proper pellet size and density a 28 can kill pheasants as well as a 12. It's the pellets in the pattern that kill not the bore size. Since you have a 12 gauge I would recommend 1 1/8th oz of #6 and 1 1/4 oz of #5 at 1220-1250 fps as your all purpose pheasant loads through whatever chokes are correct for where you shots are coming. I hunt 45 days a season here in Nebraska and carry a 16 1 oz of #6 and 1 1/8 of #5, skeet and modified 75% of the time and have no problems with pheasant wild or not over my dog. The single most important part of pheasant hunting is to recognize the angle the bird is leaving at and shoot the leading edge of the bird- pay no attention to that tail or the center of the bird. Always shoot the leading edge and you'll never need the 3" shells or 1300 fps + velocities, or a 12 gauge for that matter | |||
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I think far too much is made about chokes for upland game. Typically if ya can't hit them with mod then ya wasn't going to hit them with anything else either. I only use a feather lightning 20 Ga today for upland game and full and mod is in the gun. I just leave them there. When I hunted with a 12 Ga (a mod 23 Winchester) it was choked IC and Mod.....and it was good to go any time. Don't worry about the chokes.....worry about the shooter. /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." Winston Churchill | |||
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I think you will kill more pheasants with an improved cylinder 12 ga. than anything else. I like to concentrate on killing all the close ones and forget the long ones. I went late to SD last year and used my 28 ga. Ugartechea with IC and Mod barrels with an ounce of 5's, killed my limit every day and was the only one of 6 hunters who never lost a cripple. Predictably, there was one who shot a full choke 12 ga. and he crippled three straight that were close easy shots, hit around the fringe of a tight choke. His buddy with a 12 and IC chokes in it had very little problems. Obviously I left the 50-60 yard ones alone with the 28 ga. A shot not taken is always a miss | |||
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I've always used my 2 3/4" 12g shells in my 30 inch full choked trapguns to hunt upland birds:chukar,grouse,pheasant,bandtail pigeon,dove , mtn quail & valley quail.I like to be able to reach out and touch them. | |||
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I haven't hunted birds for a few years but have spent a lot of time at it. Used to train dogs till I got disgusted with owners. I think the choke depends on how your hunting and for phesants, I'd never take a full choke by choice. If your using pointing dogs, your first shot will be fairly close and a second not all that far. I like I/C and Mod in a SxS. Even in 12 ga, I only used 1 1/8th oz loads, easy on the shoulder. I'd tell you dram equiv.ut I don't remember, fairly light. I've tried 7 1/2, 6 and #5 shot and settled on #5 for everything.I found that 7 1/2's would sometimes hang up in a phesants feathers, 6's rarely and 5's never. 6's gave me a bit more shot for a bit better pattern than 5's and the penetrated a good bit better than 7 1/2's. The only time I would ever vary from 5's was for quail, then I went to 1 oz of 7 1/2's. | |||
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Vapodog choke is too little thought about in the proper terms. The standard for shotgun performance is 70% of it's payload in a 30 inch circle period no exceptions. Choking a shotgun was developed to move this optimal performance standard in or out in range, the numbers fall out like this: cylinder or no choke- 21 yards, skeet- 25 yards, improved cylinder- 30 yards, skeet 2- 32.5 yards, modified- 35 yards, improved modified- 37.5 yards and full-40 yards. Choke does not make a shotgun more or less "powerful", nor does bore size in and of itself. The shotgun pattern does the killing and it is comprised of a cloud of pellets which is held to the previously mentioned standard. How many depends on the payload, how much each pellet is capeable of depends on it's size and launch speed. Often overlooked by the unwashed masses is the fact that the faster you drive a pellet the faster it looses speed, a sphere being very inefficient aerodynamically, speed is not the simple answer to energy it is with bullets which are much more aerodynamic in shape, even with bullets speed cannot negate a basic lack of mass for penetration. Choke affects none of this except where that pattern is optimal- see ranges above. Another problem is people look and see a 2" a side difference is diameter in say an improved cylinder pattern vs. a modified pattern at a certain distance and incorrectly assume it doesn't make a difference it's just 2" and the aim error has to be greater than that. The problem comes in that as a pattern it's not 2 inches to each side it's a matter of total area and the pattern of pellets within that area that matters as it directly affects density of the pattern and thus it's suitability for use at that range. Add to this the way in which a pattern opens over distance as affected by choke, ie. a cylinder pattern degrades rather linearly and full goes to crap rapidly as found and noted by Bob Brister in his excellent book "Shotgunning the Art and Science". A simple review of this book and of pellet count, velocity and energy tables as found in Lyman's 4th edition shotshell guide will show you all the relevant data. So no people do make too much of choke they make too little, and even less of pattern performance and density. The thinking that because it has hiogh brass and #4 shot or that it's MV is 1400 fps it must therefore be better is wrong and accounts for more missed birds and more cripples to which the uneducated response is more choke and faster, larger pellets, which increases set back deformation and barrel scrub which serve only to reduce the pattern efficiency and further degrade the shotguns performance. People think way too little about what they feed their shotguns. Even guys who are sticklers for bullet run out, primer pocket uniformity, flash hole burrs and 1/100th of a grain powder charge accuracy. | |||
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I do quite well with skeet 1 and skeet 2. Not a darn thing wrong with what Grandad used. I wouldn't change a thing! | |||
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In my lifetime I've done a heck of a lot of shotgunning participating in money shoots with full choked 12g shotguns reaching way out for clays,grouse,bandtail pigeons,ducks,many species of quail,gray squirrels and other flyers.Writers aren't the only source of info I take more advice from on sight shooters and all of my reloads are Win AA or RXP all of this high brass is all BS I can out load and shoot with 2 3/4 in shells using appropriate propellants. | |||
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For pheasant I use a 20 guage with a modified choke. Pheasants are such big birds that I find a 12 ga overkill. I only use a 12 ga for dove and ducks. BTW, you'll like your Weatherby Orion. I bought one in 20 ga. about 15 years ago. As you may know, SKB makes them for Weatherby and later started maketing the gun with their name on it as well. | |||
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You really have to pattern your gun to have any idea what a tube / shell combination is doing for you. There is no substitute for that-- rarely do patterns have much to do with what a choke tube is stamped. | |||
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The Weatherby is a SKB O/U rebadged with a little nicer wood, these are a great shotgun as long as it fits you and you can hit with it. In Iowa early season I run IC/M and 7 1/2's, in late season when the birds are flushing wild M/F and 5's bottom and 3" 4's top. I always fire the bottom barrel first as this helps in recovering from recoil for the follow up shot. Lower bore axis makes the recoil more straight back and easier to recover from. | |||
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Yep. What he said........yep. Used to do a ton of pheasant hunting with a sweet little Brittany named Belle. Most spectacular bird killing machine I've ever had the pleasure to know......... "meat dog" for the lack of a better term. Anyhoo......all I ever used was SuperX 7 1/2 shot in a 22" Winchester 1400 XTR with the IC tube screwed in. No worry. Founder....the OTPG | |||
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Jlandon, I too shoot a pair of Weatherby shotguns. The Athena a 12 gauge O/U uses the IMP.Cly choke in the top barrel and MOD. choke in the bottom barrel. Pheasant I use #6 shot top barrel and #5 shot bottom barrel. One should always pattern their gun with the choke and ammo they are going to be using on the hunt. The Orian is a 20 gauge and I use the Skeet choke in the top barrel and IMP/MOD choke in the bottom barrel for hunting quail. I use # 7.5 shot hunting over our pointing dogs. Good Luck...TONK | |||
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I hope I'm not regarded as a troll, since I rarely visit this forum, but I'm impressed with all the wisdom here. I've been passionately hunting pheasants and other upland game for 45 years, and I don't see things any differently than many experienced guys in this thread. I normally use a 100 year old William Evans 12 ga with 2 1/2" chambers. My chokes in that gun have been opened to imp cyl X mod and I use 1 1/8 oz of #6 in the right barrel and #5 in the left which rarely gets fired. I sometimes grab the rear trigger first for those late season long range jumpers and 1 1/8 oz of #5s and a mod choke will drop 'em like a bad habit ! No high brass either which doesn't mean much. I know from experience that a lot of different combinations will work however. I had the pleasure of hunting a few years in Iowa and Kansas with an older "All American" trap shooter. Sometimes he used a 20 ga Belgian Browning Lightning but more frequently he used his Beretta A303 trap gun with 32" extra full choke. Now here's the interesting part. He only loaded #7 1/2" trap loads in that gun, and I swear I saw him stone birds at a full 60-70 yards many times with that full trap choke. He was an AA 27 yd line shooter for decades so he was truly qualified at the distance. My last comment is something that everyone missed. When you set up a double barreled shotgun's chokes, the under or right barrel is the OPEN choke (your front trigger on a double triggered gun), and the top barrel is your tighter choke. The selector could be reversed of course, and you could put the tight choke in the bottom, but there's a reason for the traditional arrangement. The lower barrel recoils more back than up which is easier to manage for your next shot. It really gets complicated to explain with a S X S, but it has to do with sideways flip, and let it suffice to say that the old way is better. Right barrel first ! When shooting driven birds, like at a European shoot or incoming pass shooting, you might want to reverse this method and put your tighter choke in the bottom barrel and reverse your pattern to shoot a distant bird first with the bottom barrel and a close bird second with the top, but this is unusual in this country. Of course you can just use your selector too, but the recoil is more upward with the top barrel being shot first...Tom | |||
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I use my Rem 870 Wingmaster with a 30 inch full choke trap barrel for mtn quail,grouse ,chukar,pheasant,squirrels,with my handloads of Win 540 or Blue Dot .I've used an Ithaca pump 16g mod for birds and squirrels. | |||
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