I intend to go as I have in the past eight times; bring my own guns. I can't imagine doing that much shooting using some Bennelli or some other jam-o-matic and having to have it cleaned every night.

Just what is the reason the outfitter does not recommend taking your personal guns? Could it be because he is making some extra bucks on you renting them from him?

I have not had any hassle in the past doing this. Is there a problem switching from, say, American Air to Argentinas with the guns?

Benelli is a jam-o-matic? Surely you must know that's not true.

Would all of the high-volume shooting outfitters use them if they were? Please enlighten us.

I don't need to or have to clean my O/U's each evening. Believe me, I have had more than a few in the shop because they quit. Even had a friend with "...over 80,000 rounds through these and never had one fail..." famous last words; it quit on the first morning.

The point being, I want to shoot my own guns.

Take your own guns if that is what you want to do. Since you have been there several times, you know what to expect.

Most people find bringing their own guns to be a hassle and clearing guns into Argentina can be confusing and frustrating for most gringos. Personally, I never found it that difficult if you follow the rules. (Disclaimer: I have lived a lot of my life in Latin America.) Also, most people that go to shoot Argentina are not prepared for the volume of shooting available. I have seen a lot of guns (and bodies) fail when they are put to this test. The outfitters are not out to make extra bucks. They are trying to make sure you have the best experience. Remember, all of these outfitters have seen it all.

When I was young and thought I could put a dent in the dove population of Argentina, I carried my own Benelli or borrowed one. When I lived there a couple of years ago, I shot more like a "gentleman" and enjoyed the experience even more. I used my own shotguns (OU and SxS) and only shot a couple hundred birds a day. I even played with some of my small bores.

Take you gun(s), relax and enjoy Argentina. As you know, its a beautiful country and the people want you to enjoy yourself and return.

Larry

Larry,

We weRe shooting some beretta silver pigeons in 28g last week and they killed the doves great. We had one guy double gunning and he shot about 800 one day without trying.

I agree, with what you said, and personally will be taking my own guns next time. For volume a s/a 20g beretta is tough to beat. Not sure if I want to put that volume of shells through my old sxs's.

I agree with Jim on the benellis. They are fussy on cartridges, and shell choices are tough to come by down there at the moment from what I was told. The berettas eat up everything you throw at them, but need daily cleaning as the shells burn dirty.

K

Well, I can say I learned something today. If you guys say the Benellis are fussy for high volume then I believe it. I won't argue with the amount of collective experience you gents have.

I've a bud who says his gunsmith friend swears by Berretta semis over Benelli. That being said, I've no complaints with my SBEII for fowl.

I have never had a problem with a Benelli. I have observed and participated in the consumption of 100's of thousands of rounds through Benelli M1 and M2 autos and have never seen a problem. My disclaimer would be that I never used anything but Win/Fed/Rem ammo in them. When I lived in Bolivia I had unlimited access to AA target ammo. Our Benelli's even functioned perfectly with the AA Lite loads we used at times.

There is a vast difference between a good enough gun for an American duck or other bird hunter and one for the volume hunts in South America. Closest volume shoots we have in the US is sporting clays. I may have seen one benelli for every couple hundred beretta auto loaders at sporting clays events. If I am going to shoot volume, it makes sense to me to use a gun designed for it, and used by far more experienced shooters than I.

Norton,

The problem is not the gun but the shells. The powders used in South American and African shells are dirtier and slower than the premium brands we shoot at home. Even though the beretta needs daily cleaning due to the gas system it uses, it cycles less fussily than the benellis.

Were I buying a gun for use at home in the uk or USA I would be the benellis. But for travelling the beretta.

Next year in Argentina I will take two berretta 20 bores of my own and shoot doves and ducks with them.

Rgds,
K

K - roger that.

Fallow Buck

It seems odd that dirty shells operate better in a gas gun than a inertia if the guns are close to equally well made? I would have guessed the other way around.
The only high volume shotgun shooters I know are sporting clay shooters. I've seen one beginner with a benelli, and it has to be 100s with berettas. These guys almost all shoot high grade store bought or home made shells. These shells have to be very close to ideal dove loads so if my experience is close to average, how do you explain? It appears Berettas are preferred for both dirty and clean.

I don't own either a Beretta or Benelli auto, but if I had to use one in SA for say a dove duck hunt, I would try check to see if the Beretta fit me before I would bother with a benelli because of my experience and that I do not have any brand loyalty BS to trip me up.

If you have time I would like to hear your thoughts on this, because you have way more experience, and I would like to hunt Argentina or Uruguay one of these days.

thanks

I have the same experiences as Kiri. As to why clays shooters prefer the Beretta auto, my guess would be recoil. The inertia Benelli's will beat the hell out of you unless you get the comfort tech stock. Even with that the gas guns have less recoil. I have no use for an auto shotgun now, but if I got one it would probably be a Beretta.

I am a Benelli guy, but mostly because I like the way they fit and feel, and, like me, they are simple instruments.

I used Benellis in one form or another as working tools for almost 3 decades. I've shot tens of thousands of rounds through the Benelli design configurations of M1's and M2's in all sorts of weather and field conditions, including desert, urban, and marine---to include along the surf line with guns that were completely wet. I have never had a failure to feed or any other type of malfunction.

But...our guns were ALWAYS properly cleaned and lubed after every use and inspected to be fully good-to-go before every op or training cycle.

And....we always used high quality, factory manufactured ammo.

Now....while in Argentina a few years back, I had 5 malfunctions during the course of several days of shooting with my Benelli Cordoba 20ga. And it was a brand new gun purchased for the trip.

Was it the ammo? I don't know.

As I opened with, I like and use the Benelli because I prefer their fit and feel over Berettas. I currently own 3 of them.

I tried Berettas in Uruguay once and simply did not care for them. But they worked, and worked, and worked.

I leave Saturday for Argentina and I'm taking two Benellis.

Interesting debate, what?

Im a beretta guy and i have several a390s a391s and the new one a400xplore ultraligth ,besides some ou and side by sides i shoot a couple of boxes everyday testing different shotguns and i advice my clients to rent gusns here but if you prefer to bring your shotgun its ok you have only have to pay 100 us and wait a bity in the airport but thats all .

quote:

Originally posted by Navaluk:
Fallow Buck

It seems odd that dirty shells operate better in a gas gun than a inertia if the guns are close to equally well made? I would have guessed the other way around.
The only high volume shotgun shooters I know are sporting clay shooters. I've seen one beginner with a benelli, and it has to be 100s with berettas. These guys almost all shoot high grade store bought or home made shells. These shells have to be very close to ideal dove loads so if my experience is close to average, how do you explain? It appears Berettas are preferred for both dirty and clean.

I don't own either a Beretta or Benelli auto, but if I had to use one in SA for say a dove duck hunt, I would try check to see if the Beretta fit me before I would bother with a benelli because of my experience and that I do not have any brand loyalty BS to trip me up.

If you have time I would like to hear your thoughts on this, because you have way more experience, and I would like to hunt Argentina or Uruguay one of these days.

thanks

My comment was actually directed at the pressures the shells operate at. I think they are slower/inferior powders even if you see european or USA brands, they are made under licence on location. We were shooting Fioccii 28guage, made locally.

The fact that these shells burn dirty only impacts the necessity for a good cleaning regime which any decent outfitter should provide for you. Their lack of pressure will impact the cycling of the inertia system however.

I also think the local shells use inferior wads as we were getting a lot of "confetti" in both 20 & 28 gauges.

However I will also caveat my comments by stating that the shells killed birds well at great ranges when the shooters did their bit. We spent an afternoon with the guys only shooting at birds over 45 yards and out to 60+ and the limiting factor was not the cartridge if you get my drift...!!

I will state again that I am no expert, and others have far more experience than me as I have a grand total of three weeks in Argentina... (I am a fast learner though... )

K

I think the inertia guns have more problems with dirty powder than gas guns because gas guns shoot dry and inertia guns need more "lube" to run....the lube holds the powder residue and gums up.... jmo

Beretta 391 20G for high volume shooting. Brought mine to Argentina a couple times; glad for the gas auto (recoil) and glad for the sub gauge. Clearing takes some time but not terrible, good outfitter should be able to help. I like shooting my own gun because the shim system in the stock has been adjusted to me.

So this topic surfaces every now and then. Here are some thoughts and I am assuming that you are going to Argentina on a HIGH VOLUME DOVE SHOOT.

If you are going to shoot a few perdiz a day, or some ducks a day, or some pigeons a day, please stop reading any further. You can take a single shot Mossberg for that purpose or a nice pair of Purdeys....that is your choice.....what I am writing below does NOT apply to you.

Still interested in HIGH VOLUME DOVE SHOOTING keep on reading....

HIGH VOLUME DEFINITION:
Lets set some parameters so shooters who have not done this get a grip on the scale of things.

Say you are going to shoot a full day, say 12 hours of shooting.
12 hours x 60 minutes * 60 seconds = 43,200 seconds total

Someone shooting 1,000 doves per day will need to KILL a dove every 43.2 seconds for 12 hours.
(This does not count the missed shots)

Someone shooting 2,500 doves per day will need to KILL a dove every 17.28 seconds for 12 hours.
(This does not count the missed shots)

By the way these are very reasonable numbers and any half decent outfitter can put you on large volume doves.

OK so now you can be honest to yourself and calculate your percentage (Hit/Miss ratio). A Master Class Sporting Clays shooter in my opinion should have a 60% success rate. That is 6 birds down for every 10 shots. Anything over 60% is fantastic. Over 80%...you are the GOD of shotgun and doves will die on your command

Now lets settle the Gun Debate.

Your Gun VS Outfitter:
Leave the O/U, SxS, Gas Operated, Inertia out of it for a second. If you have your shotgun fitted to you then you may not want to shoot one provided by the outfitter...plain and simple. There is your decision point.

Also, there is a fee you would need to pay the Argentinian government to bring your guns into the country. It is usually about the same to rent shotguns from the outfitter.

These days you may end up paying extra baggage fees to Airlines for your gun case. Then all the paperwork on top of that. Then God forbid your flight lands at an awkward time when an English speaking official is not available and your Spanish is limited then you are asking for trouble. What if you loose your guns on the way over, or on the way back....better have them insured as well. Make sure your insurance will pay for the loss overseas. Or take out extra insurance.


CLEANING:
If you are going on a high volume shoot no matter which type you of gun you are shooting it would be wise to clean it (yourself or someone else) at lunch time and at dinner time.


Gas Operated VS Inertia:
I have extensively tested both. I am a duck hunter and I LOVE my Benellis to death (I have 4). However they are not my choice for large volume dove shooting. A Gas Operated Gun like Beretta 390 or 391 would be a better option. Inertia guns (like Benelli) will start jamming up once crud builds up from high volume shooting. A Gas Operated believe it or not is much more forgiving in this situation (just remember to clean/get it cleaned at lunch and dinner everyday). Also, gas operated kicks less, hence you see them more in Sporting Clays tournaments over Inertia operated. So decision point.....GAS OPERATED would be my choice.


12 Gauge VS 20 Gauge:
All you need is 20 Gauge for high volume doves. You do not need to kill your shoulder from the accumulated recoil over multiple days with a 12 gauge shotgun. A 20 gauge (with lead shot) will kill the doves dead in air at 60 yards with a Modified choke. If you want to impress people with your shooting prowess the outfitter can arrange for 28 gauge or .410 bore ammo (which is usually higher in price). Those tiny loads you can shoot from a SxS or O/U, as they will be quite forgiving than the bigger gauges.

IDEAL SHOTGUN
Here is an ideal shotgun....a 20 Gauge Gas operated Beretta with a hydraulic (or pneumatic) recoil system in the stock. Fitted to your dimensions, with a Modified choke. Using good clean Ammo would be the ticket. My goal usually is to enjoy a multiple day hunt and come back without any shoulder injuries or bruises. This kind of gun will keep me out of trouble for say 3 days with about 3,000 doves for the trip (1,000 doves per day). Can easily push it to 5,000 doves for the trip.

NOW

If you end up going on a trip with your buddies and it turns into a Rooster-Measuring-Contest and you are looking at big numbers .... say 3,000 doves per day or more then I would suggest taking 2 of the guns I described above...have two bird boys loading for you. As soon as you empty one gun, you pass it to the bird boy, he hands you the loaded one. Primary Bird boy is handing to you (and counting birds). Secondary bird boy is loading. Then they may alternate their positions every 30 minutes or so. You forego the lunch break. Start before sunrise, shoot until the sun goes down. Take a small lunch break in the field. Pray to God the wind is not crazy. And go at a time of year when you have maximum sunlight hours. Oh yes....the math....for a 12 hour day you will need to KILL a dove every 14.4 seconds to get to 3,000 doves per day.

I personally know of a very good shooter who tries to beat his own record with 2 Perazzi 20 gauge over/unders every year. Both guns are fitted to him. Both have recoil systems in their stocks. He has to send the guns back to Perazzi for mechanical work after every trip.

Bottom line....in the end it all boils down to what you prefer, and what you are comfortable with. If you just want to go and have fun with your tiny 32 gauge SxS, shoot a few boxes, and get a massage, then more power to you.

Apologies for the long reply

I'm no expert, but here are my findings after about 8 trips to Cordoba:

Automatics are problematic because the shells are dirty and the guns are generally not properly maintained. The guys who really want to stack up birds i. e. 3000+ per day use 2 to 5 automatic 20 or 28s with extended mags and multiple loaders.

The most popular guns are 20 bore o/u usually 686s or similar.

For me, I believe the best gun for high volume dove and pigeon shooting is a 28 bore sxs with double triggers choked IC/M 28" barrels, but that's only my opinion! I've had 2,000 bird dove days and 1,000 bird pigeon days with this type gun.

Despite the hassle, I enjoy taking my own guns.

Everybody can find their own level of enjoyment in dove shooting in South America and choose the type of gun accordingly.