Help!

I am new to the birding scene and am in the market for a new shotgun, WHICH one? I am a traditionalist so am leaning toward a side by side 12ga. I will use it both for water birds and quail. Is there a massive difference between the SS and OU? I don’t want to spend a fortune but want some thing decent.

Remembering in SA you only get 1 license per caliber so the one I get must be right first time.

Any suggestions?

Personally I don't have any quibble at all, get an O/U with choke tubes BUT considering your location a classic S/S might be available. It all boils down to personal choice. Time and millions of targets and birds have shown the O/U to have a slight edge but it is not one that really will make a real difference to most people in the field.

I will point out that most "classic" doubles, english or otherwise, don't have choke tubes and considering the types of shooting you are going to be doing, which are basically on opposite ends of the shotgun range and power load spectrum, I would want a shotgun with tubes AND, if you're going to be doing much waterfowling, some weight to it.

Well, from someone who shoots both....I'll tell you I just like the variation. My "never-miss" upland gun is a Citori 12 o/u with an English stock. But I would NOT bring that gun to the salt marshes or on a crappy weather hunt. And I duck hunt with semis only......love that third shot.

I don't know what you consider a fortune, but if you're looking for a cheap, but still very functional SxS I'd look at the Remington line.....made in Baikal, used to be called Spartan but now just SP something or other.
I have a 12 and a 20g......I love that 20g for upland.....I don't care if I scratch it, etc. For $400 and change you cannot beat it.

First, I greatly agree about using caution on bringing "nice guns" to the duck marsh and especially aluminum duck boats, steel pits and river sandbars. That's why my No. 1 duck-goose gun is a Rem 11-87. But, I do go on and hunt with the more expensive ones, usually after enough ducks are in the freezer and the third shot's no longer a worry.

I own and shoot both the S/S and O/U and from purely personal preference, like the S/S better. The reasons are partly tradition (it was around a lot longer obviously). I like the looks of the double better (that's the other name for the S/S...O/Us are seldom called that). And I think just maybe I shoot the S/S better, partly due to the more obvious sighting plane if you want to call it that, and partly "just because"...

I think it took me a little longer to get used to the O/U. It's a 26" barrel Browning 12 ga and it's taken many a duck and I can honestly say I've broken 25 straight on the trap line with it (that's against the advice of most who will say a field gun is a big disadvantage at trap).

I also have a 12 ga. Browning in a S/S, 28" barrels, IC and Mod. The O/U has screw-in chokes; the S/S doesn't. Both guns have proper LOP and will handle steel shot. I've taken pheasant, duck, dove, quail and geese with the S/S. Both are 3" chambered and have easy recoil IMO and either would be a fine one-gun outfit.

So, you could flip a coin. Either will do. It's just a matter of which you can handle, point and shoot the best plus which has that "look" you want. For me, I chose one of each. Hope this helps.

Btw, my condolences on the rule about one per caliber. Has it always been like that??

I'm with Norton -completely. It's a question of whether it's upland -or ducks. Two different shotguns are involved - I'll go so far as to say that whether you use a 12-16-20 on pheasants or ruffed grouse is a matter of personal taste and how youn handle the shotgun - but on ducks (and most certainly on Canadas the 12 is the only shotgun. (The 10 ga.fanatics will tell you about how far out the 10 ga. will reach - but they don't tell you how much the 10 ga. will jolt your back teeth (translation - it really does have a recoil -take my word for it!Finishing off the cripple (and I never was a bilnd hunter because I had to run down the cripple) is an unpleasant experience for any hunter who has to chase down a cripple. (I did it without shooting and by wringing its neck sometimes -and, other times by firing the shotgun (and holding high so as not to blast the bird) - so I do like what Norton said about the semi (I liked pumps myself) - it really is great to finish off a cripple -always a bad business fo us hunters .

Get what you want!

The Best of the Best shoot O/U's in the shotgun "games"....but not many are in that league.

I shoot both...more SxS than O/U. Don't notice much difference in terms of birds in the bag.Maybe a little more w/SxS because I shoot them more.

Decent SxS start around $900-1000(US)and the sky is the limit. Depends on your taste and budget.

Buy what YOU like and enjoy

Thanks for the advice! It has helped a great deal

From your comments I will go for the S/S, just because I like it. I was looking at the 471 Silver Hawk advertised for about US$2500. But to buy it locally in RSA the best I can find is R 55447,00 and that is out of my league. I will look at the Remington.

The new law WRT firearm licenses states you can not have 2 firearms of the same caliber. It is part of the new legislation passed some years back which is still not fully implemented. We can wait anything up to 3 years for the license, while the gun stays at the dealer, and then can still be refused. That is why I need to buy right the first time.

If you want a classic SxS you might look for a German boxlock like the J.P.Sauer. They can be had here in excellent shape for $1200 to $1400 or in very used but acceptable shape for $700 USD. With Namibia right next door, there should be a few floating around your part of the world.

I have to admit, I haven't handled the current version of the Rem double but based on what I have seen of that maker's earlier work, I would NOT buy it, especially if I could only have one gun. I don't know if you can have them, but I'd suggest getting a Benelli Nova or a Rem 870 with tubes and a give or take, 26 inch barrel UNTIL you can find a decent double and then trading them.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gatogordo:
I have to admit, I haven't handled the current version of the Rem double but based on what I have seen of that maker's earlier work, I would NOT buy it, especially if I could only have one gun.

+1

If you can only have one gun and want to stay reasonable price wise get a browning citori if you want a double. I don't pretend to know as much as alot of these men, but my experience has been that getting a good sxs that I like has has lead to a noticeable jump in price from the citori/red label/etc bracket. If willing to go semi, I have a Berreta Techny(sp?) that i have been very pleased with and a Super BlackEagle that I love. Just an idea, I know it costs double, but what about a semi 12 for waterfowl and a nice 20 double for upland? Would get you around the laws anyhow.

Remington had some QA issues early on with the Baikal doubles but those have been worked out. No one said these were the quality of a $3000 double. Is it clunkier than my Citori? Yes. Is it 1/5th the price? Yes. Are they functional? Absolutely. Museum pieces? No.

Again, not knowing what you meant by a "fortune" I thought I'd offer some first hand advice from someone who owns all of the above. If you can afford to spend $2000 on a SxS, then do NOT get the Remington SPR210.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
...so (I liked pumps myself) .

Birds of a feather, friend. On the few occasions I've borrowed a semi for waterfowl hunts I found one of the technical flaws almost immediately: you just can't shuck a shell by working the fore end, no matter how hard you yank on it!

KG:

Your humorous comment does conceal a fact known to pump shotgun shooters - the "pumping" is unconscious and almost by reflex. That makes it for all practical purposes on waterfowl just a good as an "auto", I would think but I certainly don't claim yours or Norton's experience on waterfowl. (On what I deem the "king of game birds" - the ruffed grouse, I would agree that the really split second faster second shot of the "auto" might help -although who gets second shots at a single ruff? {I do not believe stories of making "doubles" on ruffed grouse} I believe I have now said enough in this post to put the cat among the pigeons with the ruff hunters! (All lying accounts will still be read with interest)

KG:

Rereading my last post (and getting far out on a limb) I want to add a few qualifications to my statements about a "double on ruffed grouse. 1)The ruffed grouse are the Northeast US variety and I do recognize Wisconsin ruffs also 2) the "double" is a true "left and right" as the quail shooters in my youth would say. I repeat, I have never done it on ruffs (so therefore it's impossible)

The few unfortunate instances I've had to duck hunt with a pump I never fail to forget to pump the damn thing after the first shot......as the ducks fly away(except the first one ).

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
KG:

Your humorous comment does conceal a fact known to pump shotgun shooters - the "pumping" is unconscious and almost by reflex.

Absolutely. Proof positive of this to me occurs when a single bird come in. After retrieving a dead bird, done in with a single shot, upon opening the action, I always see that another shell has already been chambered. Funny thing? I don't remember ever shucking her. It truly becomes instinctive. Long live the pumpguns! The only times I think I even think about it is when the occasional shell fails to eject. But after some swearing, with a hand on the forearm, a swift blow of the butt on the frozen ground with the muzzle straight up solves that problem right quick.

P.S. I've killed triples on ducks and geese on several occasions, but never doubled on partridge. Some day. Maybe.

Norton:

It's perfectly alright among those of us who like you that you are not capable of handling firearms that require human reflexes and coordination -like pump shotguns. BTW, I never saw a redhead,so far as I know, but have retained a lifelong memory of a cover page (maybe Field & Stream) that showed redheads alighting on the water. It was a riveting image and never forgotten.{I don't think I ever saw a redhead,sadly}

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:
The few unfortunate instances I've had to duck hunt with a pump I never fail to forget to pump the damn thing after the first shot......as the ducks fly away(except the first one ).

I respect those that it is instinctive for. I guess I'm just an O/U or semi kid. I've never owned a pump, but have shot a model 12 of my dad's a few times, and I am always forgeting to rack another one in.

As mentioned by others, get a quality medium grade double; either O/U or SxS, They are infinitely more durable and dependable than semi auto's and pumps. Professional skeet and clay shooters will never use a single barrel shotgun for that reason.

I do agree they are more durable and dependable.

The reason skeet shooters use superposed or O/U guns is because shooting at double targets is involved; so they have no choice. Autos or pumps would and can do just as well but are not favored because the sport, like trap, involves many thousands of rounds and eventually you're looking at mechanical problems, especially with autos.

Doubles aka S/S have been used for skeet (the Model 21 was once popular), but I think at some point they fell out of style, I believe for no particular reason.

With trap, the standard gun is the single barrel, for the simple reason that most shoot single target trap. For the trap double target sport, folks use mainly the O/U.

If anyone's looking for a high quality, medium price double or superposed, the Brownings are hard to beat. The search could end right there.

Shack:

I think I have to have a rare disagreement with you about shotguns - I think the reason most trapshooters (single target)use a single barrel shotgun is because of the "single sight plane" propaganda that they learned in babyhood Every double shooter knows that he is pointing and not aiming (so the bead on the end of a double, much less that monstrosity as a double bead) are totally unnecessary) The fact of a "double barrel" is irrelevant to a double shooter - because the double shooter doesn't even see the barrels - he is pointing the shotgun (the very end of what he sees in his lower vision) -like his finger -at the target (lead is what he does after he catches up with the target) {"Pointing" a shotgun is exactly like the eye and finger coordination of when you point at something with a finger - and whether you are lefthanded or right handed makes no difference) Sorry, Shack, if I sound like I'm trying to teach my grandmother how to suck eggs. (I have to avoid being a complete hypocrite and admit that I always used a single barrel shotgun when I shot 16 yard trap - but I also brought along my hunting double before open season to "brush up" -and always got odd looks from the other members of the squad)

Well, hockey puck. The reason trap, skeet, and almost all serious competitive shotgun sport shooters use single barrels, semi-autos, or O/Us is because in the course of millions of targets it has been proven by winners that the "single sighting plane" allows more accurate shooting and breaks more targets. The amount is small but it is plainly there, just like the difference between the innate accuracy of the service rifles in .308 or .30-06.

quote:

The reason trap, skeet, and almost all serious competitive shotgun sport shooters use single barrels, semi-autos, or O/Us is because in the course of millions of targets it has been proven by winners that the "single sighting plane" allows more accurate shooting and breaks more targets.

That is part of the reason, the other part is because shooting the lower barrel on an O/U results in less muzzle rise which means a quicker sight of the second target.
I know of NO semi pro or pro clay shooter using a semi auto. The O/U's are more reliable and have less felt recoil due to the extra weight of the second barrel.

If you are only able to buy one shotgun, be smart, buy a medium grade Italian or Spanish made O/U or SxS and you will never regret that decision.

I know if I could only have one, that is what I would do.

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I agree pretty much with what everyone is saying on this. Could be we're saying the same thing in different ways. On the trap, I'm not a specialist in that. I'm a hunter who also does trap. I have used single shots, O/U, S/S, auto and pump for trap. All these were hunting guns except single shots which I borrowed. I don't even own a dedicated trap piece. I've also used for skeet everything except a pump (obviously no single shots for that).

I agree with the single sighting plane as why S/S or doubles are rarely used at trap and never (when I've been involved or watching) in tournaments. On the other hand, I've successfully shot singles trap with a Browning S/S in mod and IC. Meaning, it CAN be done. I've also used S/S guns regularly at skeet where they are more accepted.

Once you get down to a "single barrel" for trap that leads to what do you call a single barrel. The vast majority I do club trap shooting with use one kind of gun only, and frankly you're odd man out (I've been the recipient of lectures on this) if you don't use it too..the single barrel single shot trap gun, meaning of course the top break kind.

I used to get the evil eye on using the Citori O/U and the Rem 11-87 and Browning S/S. "Well, you can't expect much with field guns". Until I started hitting them. "You were smoking them today"...real compliment from a former grand national champion, or whatever the title is...he's since passed away at age 90 something and was tremendously respected by all. I'll always be proud I could run them with him at the station beside me.

Anywho, the single barrel concept I think works fine for not only "true" single shot/barrel guns but also autos, O/U and pumps. The Mod 12 was what that fellow won his title(s) with. It was at one time a tremendously popular trap gun. Still could be, except it's no longer considered "in style". There're reasons for that which don't reflect on the gun.

When he could no longer handle the M-12 recoil he switched to an auto, I think an 1100. I also have gotten excellent trap results with my 11-87, which is my long favorite field gun.

Two things about the auto at trap. It solves in large part the recoil issue, especially for older shooters. That shouldn't be under-estimated. It can also be fitted for the individual shooter. At our club some have had gunsmiths build custom stocks for that purpose. The gentleman I referred to had standing offers for such stocks to be done free of charge.

The second thing is to remember to always use one of those little devices I refer to as a shell blocker (not sure of the tech correct term). Others on the line don't want and won't tolerate your empties bouncing off them.

Enough for now...

p.s. - a few guys at our place actually file off the front sight. I wouldn't go that far, but I see their point. Personally I need mine for certain limited purposes in the field.

Very intresting - thank-you for the information. I went to a couple of firearm dealers on the weekend and at least I now know what I am looking for!

Will post a pic when I finally make a decision

Hi

A lot of good arguments here. I had a bit of the same dilemma. Here up north we are also pretty much restricted to 1 gun per calibre. So I bought all the arguments for the superior O/U. And I got an Italian 12 gauge. And I have been pretty happy with my choice.

Then a few years later I got the chance to get my hands on a 16 gauge S/S. And jumped right on it. And I couldn't be happier. It's an older Spanish model.

So now I have both, and the two girls make a beautiful couple.

Johan

quote:

So now I have both, and the two girls make a beautiful couple.

Johan

I think most guys are OK with lesbians in action. As long as they're good looking, who cares, right?

KG:

When I was rather younger, the city of Boston was regarded as the judge for the rest of the country as to what we could see (on film) or what we could read or see on the theater stage. I am glad to see that a Bostonian now has been able to watch porno films of lesbians together -or else how do you know? (BTW, I want you to know that I will not be naking any more Bosox jokes. I was raised to nevr kick a man when he's down)

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
KG:

I am glad to see that a Bostonian now has been able to watch porno films of lesbians together -or else how do you know?

Porno films? Um, well, not exactly. Suffice it to say that I suspect parties when you were young and parties when I was young were a bit different, on a few different levels. Ah, kids these days!

KG:

Sorry, but your last response kinda straightened me up. Guess your views are way offside from mine. (I should have remembered the MA address) This is my last response. Let's leave it at that. Good luck with your duck hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
KG:

Sorry, but your last response kinda straightened me up. Guess your views are way offside from mine. (I should have remembered the MA address) This is my last response. Let's leave it at that. Good luck with your duck hunting.

I don't know how to interpret this Gerry.....either you're a savvy jokester or extremely thin-skinned. Which is it?

quote:

Originally posted by The Shottist:
As mentioned by others, get a quality medium grade double; either O/U or SxS, They are infinitely more durable and dependable than semi auto's and pumps. Professional skeet and clay shooters will never use a single barrel shotgun for that reason.

I will politely, yet violently disagree.

While I love a fine shotgun, a Remington 870 12 gauge pump will outlast abuse that will leave any fine double in pieces.
I have killed rabbit, squirrel, pheasant, quail, duck, and dove with mine. I have had it freeze to the bottom of the duck boat, dropped in muddy swap water, and even paddled a boat with it. It goes bang every time.

quote:

Originally posted by Norton:

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
KG:

Sorry, but your last response kinda straightened me up. Guess your views are way offside from mine. (I should have remembered the MA address) This is my last response. Let's leave it at that. Good luck with your duck hunting.

I don't know how to interpret this Gerry.....either you're a savvy jokester or extremely thin-skinned. Which is it?

I too am confused. Gerry, are you being serious? If so, I beg your pardon for being playful, and apologies extended for offending your apparently tender sensibilities. I meant neither harm nor insult, truly. In any case, here's wishing you well from the Bean.

quote:

Originally posted by Duckear:


I will politely, yet violently disagree.

While I love a fine shotgun, a Remington 870 12 gauge pump will outlast abuse that will leave any fine double in pieces.
I have killed rabbit, squirrel, pheasant, quail, duck, and dove with mine. I have had it freeze to the bottom of the duck boat, dropped in muddy swap water, and even paddled a boat with it. It goes bang every time.

So, in other words, you've pampered and babied your pumpgun, and barely broken it in. Just wait until you really begin to heap some abuse on it. You'll be impressed, I'm sure!