Gerald:

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I agree that skeet is challenging and certainly I have no objection to someone practicing skeet in preparation for ruffed grouse shooting (but really only to sharpen timing) I was assuming that "bobtvhunter" is a beginner at shotgunning and I do believe that the more leisurely pace of trap is better for a beginner who wants to hunt live birds (particularly if he uses International Rules and only shoulders the gun after he calls for the bird)He learns two important points - don't overswing and pay attention to not over (or under) shooting - both important for such rising birds as pheasants and quail as well as for jump shooting mallards along a brook.

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I don't know where you shoot or have shot skeet, but anywhere I've ever been, which is quite a few gun clubs, there will be at least 2 rounds of trap shot by one group while another group is shooting one round of skeet. Skeet is inherently slower, there are more stations and if there is a full squad, the shooters have to change position 5 times at each of 9 positions, for a total of 45 movements. At trap they change 5 times with all shooters moving at once. You'd have to have the slowest trap squad in the world and the fastest skeet squad and then it would be close. Most skeet rounds take about 22 to 25 minutes, trap takes at most 10 to 12 and can be done in 6 or 8 by a fast squad. So much for you "leisurely pace of trap" vs skeet.



While I love trap and have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds at the game, there is no doubt in my mind that for a beginning shooter, a SKEET range is the only way to go. The shots are relatively easy and REPEATABLE. While any shotgun game is better than none for practice, trap is nearly worthless for a beginner except to learn trap or maybe if he is trying to learn to shoot pheasants only. The reason is simple, trap only requires a very few inches of gun barrel movement and the critical learning of pointing, swinging and follow through is very hard to teach a beginner with such minimal movements of the barrel. International style trap is different, but it is so much harder (and hard to find a range as well) that it is not desirable for a beginner either.



I have had the pleasure of teaching quite a few kids/young adults and a few old pharts how to shoot or to improve their shooting and again, contrary to your statements, overswinging is rarely a problem. Almost to a person, they shoot behind and/or over the birds. The behind is because they haven't figured out the lead required in relation to the way they handle the gun and the over comes mostly from "peeking" or lifting their head. Of course, they also shoot everywhere but at their foot from time to time.



Your "overswinging" can result from a shotgun that is not very well balanced, such as the 37 FW or a short barreled 870, but shooting in front of a bird is rarely the reason for misses for most people. One of the worst rounds of registered trap I ever shot was when I had been hunting and shooting a Model 42 .410 quite a bit and stepped up to the line with no practice for the switch with my single barreled 12 trap gun. Now, I really overswung that round. I was AA,27,AA (they didn't have AAA back then) and I fired off a smooth 19 on the first trap (by far my worst round EVER in singles competition, up to that day I don't think I had ever shot as low as a 22 in competition, it was humbling) . Sure helped my average as well. Oh, did I mention this was at the Grand, but not the main event, luckily. Also some of the very light small ga doubles can be overhandled. It takes some work to get used to a fine small double, like beautiful women they need to be caressed, not man handled.

Buried in all of these recommendations is the one piece of advice that is critical...

Fit is everything!!! Your eye is the rear sight, if the shotgun does not come up lined up properly you will have a hell of a time with it.

You can learn to keep your head down, and compensate for this and that, but again - if it doesn't come up automatically and without thought all lined up - you will have a much more difficult time hitting with it.

Gauges, chokes, action types, barrel lengths - all that stuff has it's place just like the infinite hair splitting rifle shooters go through. And you can make a good point for an upland gun vs. a turkey gun vs. a waterfowl gun, But a case in point...

My father went to the gun store when I was 14 and told the fellow there I needed a "good all around shotgun". Bless his heart, the guy behind the counter sold us a Remington 1100 12 gauge, 2 3/4" chambers, 28" barrel, modified choke. He made me put the gun in the crook of my arm, measured my LOP and installed a recoil pad at that length.

In those days - almost 40 years ago - I didn't know you needed a 26" barreled double for quail, or a 30" full for ducks. 7 1/2's for quail, 6's or 4's for ducks, 6's for rabbits - that's all I knew. I just shot everything with that Model 1100 and was downright deadly. Now everyone knows you need an O/U bored skeet/skeet or a 30" single barrel bored full to win at skeet and trap. When I was 16 I got a kick out of using that modified choke 1100 to beat the old men at trap and skeet with their mucho expensive European doubles and trap guns.

Much later in life I bought a beautiful, light weight 20 gauge Browning BSS - couldn't hit diddly with it. Bought a 12 gauge Browning Citori with 3" chambers and a much too long LOP - couldn't and still can't hit with it. When I throw it up I'm looking down on the top of the barrel or off to one side a bit. Before I sell it I may try to shorten the LOP to see if that helps. It is a nice shotgun but fairly heavy.

Bottom line - except for using 3" shells and steel shot, that Model 1100 bought in 1966 has proved itself completely adequate for everything I've ever fired it at and, except for the Citori which sits on the shelf and hasn't been fired in 10 years, is the only shotgun I own - because it fits me perfectly.

Now if I could only just learn to live with one .30-06 again...

Dutch,
neat & unique looking dog! I am curious, do these breed's come with F.C.I. paper's? How far out doe's the drent range out at? Anybody else breeding these within North America?

Norseman, as far as papers, mine came with full registration of the Dutch breed club, which means a Federation Cynologique Internationale registration and pedigree. There is, at this time, no breed club of any kind in the US. We aren't even keeping a studbook. We may be changing that in the near future, but the amount of work is, well, daunting.

As far as ranging, they are bred to be the ideal dog for the "gentleman walk-up" hunter. Pretty much 40 yards in any kind of cover. On chuckars or sharptails, in wide open terrain, she'll go a little further, as far out as 70 yards, sometimes a 100 if I cast her out that far, but her natural range is "under the gun". Great forest grouse dog or pheasants.

There are a few of us that are starting to breed. There was a litter in Texas last year. A friend of mine near Portland will have a litter around May, and I am tentatively planning to breed a litter by August. I'm assuming hips and eyes will test good, and that there is an interest. HTH, Dutch.

Dutch:

I know new breeds tend to be expensive, but what price range are the puppies out of this breed?

Beautiful dog.

They run about 600 to 700 Euro's, plus transportation. There are so few litters born in the US, there really isn't a "going rate" yet. It's not going to be a $100 puppy, but lots cheaper than a pointing lab from a Field trial proven dam......... LOL! Dutch.

near Portland?
I for one would like to see one in person and perhaps ask the breeder/owner for a invite of pheasant, quail and maybe chukar hunting. How do these fare in water work? Do you know of any website that promote this breed in english? Are they considered as a versatile breed? Doe's the Dutch Breed Klub/F.C.I./JGHV require hunt test? if so, are there test score results printed on the pedigree? In case you did not know, there are alot of people in Portland/Beaverton metro area with fat wallet's who like to own exotic hunting dog's.

Norseman, I'll try to answer your questions, as best I can.

1) no hunting requirement at the Dutch breed club. Recently, the number of registered dogs has been about 1/3rd for hunting, 2/3rds for pets. Not a viable long term situation, IMO, but a reality given the extremely limited hunting opportunities there.

2) Websites: http://home.hetnet.nl/~de-drentse-patrijshond/indexeng.html

http://www.drentschepatrijshond.nl/html/english/index.html

http://hometown.aol.com/jlpedrotti/myhomepage/index.html

3) Drop me an email and I'll forward your note to the fellow in the Portland area.

4) Yes, they are a versatile breed, though they are not suitable as a cold water retriever. As a matter of fact, mine doesn't retrieve as well as I'd like. They are bred to hunt everything from hares to quail, ducks and pheasants, but also take fox if the opportunity arises. Like most versatile dogs, chasing fur is something that's in there.

As far as fat wallets, there seem to be quite a few of those around, everywhere. This is not a breed suitable for kennel life, so we need to be careful where we place them. They can be wonderful pets, but they do need their excercise. They do need lots and lots of human contact. HTH, Dutch.

bobtvhunter:

Frankly, your post sounds like covering an awful lot of ground to this bird hunter. You want to hunt "grouse"? What kind of grouse? Ruffed grouse? Sharptailed grouse? Sand grouse? The difference in shotguns between hunting a ruffed grouse and a duck in pass shooting is as different as night and day. Shooting a wild turkey can be done with any duck hunting shotgun. Shooting ruffed grouse is something else again. If you want an all purpose single shotgun, get a Remington Wingmaster with 26, 28 and 30" interchangeable barrels. Another choice would be for a Remington upland auto and a Mossberg (both in 12 gauge and with barrel lengths of 26" and 30" respectively)

bobtvhunter:

I notice that you mention that you are primarily a rifle man. I have no idea what amount of shooting you have done with a shotgun but let me impose on you and tell you that unlike a rifle (or a pistol) you don't "aim" a shotgun. You point it. This is not a distinction without a difference. Take your finger and point it quickly at an object. Notice how your finger and your eye work together? That's shooting a shotgun. The barrel of the shotgun is an extension of your pointing finger. (If you snap shoot as with ruffed grouse, it's the bird as your eye sees him and the tip of the barrel swinging to follow him. Nobody gets to "lead" ruffed grouse. We're lucky to pick him up after he explodes and we kid ourselves that we got ahead of him. So how come we decorated a tree with No. 7 1/2's or No.6's?) One last suggestion - get into clay bird shooting. You will pick up the easy familiarity of swinging with a flying target. Then when you shoot at live birds you will be able to follow the ancient Roman expression " Festina lente". (Make haste-slowly) Wing shooting is an art -much more so than rifle shooting. Strike out of your mind all the thoughts about Hollywood scenes of shotguns blasting the scenery. You will wonder how that bird got through your perfectly executed swing and "perfect" follow through as you fired. Welcome to the club!

only hunt with an open gun over and under or sde by side, when it flushes close the gun bring it to your shoulder and fire, go pickup your bird. if that does not work go shoot skeet with an open gun until you can hit 23/24/25 then go hunt again. ok? skeet was invented to simulate grouse hunting, i hope that helps.

Mills;

I agree that skeet is challenging and certainly I have no objection to someone practicing skeet in preparation for ruffed grouse shooting (but really only to sharpen timing) I was assuming that "bobtvhunter" is a beginner at shotgunning and I do believe that the more leisurely pace of trap is better for a beginner who wants to hunt live birds (particularly if he uses International Rules and only shoulders the gun after he calls for the bird)He learns two important points - don't overswing and pay attention to not over (or under) shooting - both important for such rising birds as pheasants and quail as well as for jump shooting mallards along a brook.

Probably your most versatile in my opinion is a good pump. If you are looking for cheap, go with Remington. I would advise a nicely cared for used one however. The newer ones are not quite as good.
If you want to spend a little more though I would suggest Ithaca Model 37. Great gun, Great company, Great balance. the new ones are still made to last forever.