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Quote: My, my, Gato! I see that your usual calm and thoughtful personna has apparently suffered some frazzling around the edges due to frustration with failure to bring in Hogzilla.  First, as to turkeys, there is nothing to prevent a rifleman from calling turkeys in very close before taking them, and I know many that do. The gun used has nothing to do with "sporting"; I just prefer to treat turkeys as "big game" and hunt them with rifles. As I said, a shotgun is a wingshooting device, and turkeys are rarely taken on the wing (though I don't object to that, either). It is truly puzzling as to why many jurisdictions prohibit rifles for turkeys, but then many also prohibit rifles for deer. Either restriction is irrational. Fortunately, the statutes of the constabulary where I hunt turkeys don't care. We've discussed your long range shotgunning fixations before, and while I don't engage in 100 yard dove shooting, I don't mind if you do. All of my comments were predicated on the statement that I don't hunt waterfowl (waterfoul, if you will). And I repeat, "I've never found a need for a 3" shell in any gauge, much less a 3 1/2 inch shell". Considering that I neither hunt the web-footed varieties nor take my doves at benchrest ranges, I think that you'd have to agree that I, personally, don't have any use for more than a 2 3/4-incher. The same is true of a 12 vs. a 10, and I have my doubts that, save the artificial restrictions on shot which reduce the molecular weight of the projectiles, there would be any real difference in the efficacy of the two gauges except for the much more user-friendly size and weight of the smaller-gauged gun. As to it being false that there is little difference in the effective ranges of smaller gauges and larger gauges for birds the size of dove and quail, the statement again assumes "normal" size shot and non-benchrest distances. I think I said 5 yards. Given these assumptions, it's probably more like 3 yards. Now, Gato, let's hope that you track down Hogzilla soon and that your sunny and easy-going personality returns to these haunts soon!  | ||
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Stonecreek: I admire a man who pontificates about something which he knows very little, but not much. Why don't you ask the Wild Turkey Foundation about their view of the "sporting" use of rifles on turkeys? Quote: I'll tell you what, you take a 1/2 ounce .410, shot size, your choice, and I'll take 12 with a mere 1 1/8 ounce of 7 1/2 and we'll start at the 30 yard mark back from the crossing pt of skeet targets on a skeet range, low guns. We'll each shoot 5 pairs of doubles targets, alternately, and back up a yard. I'll bet I can still break them with the 12 well beyond your "more like 3 yards" when you can't break them at all with your .410, and "normal dove size shot". How about $100 a bird difference standing side by side and $1000 for every yard beyond the 3 difference that I can break 50% or more, after you can't break them? Are we on? Hard to believe I'd make this offer, after all, as you said, "It's a lot more important that you shoot where the bird is than what you shoot it with." So prove it. Hint: Don't bring you hiking boots, you won't have to back up far. Same thing holds true, but on a lesser scale, for the 28 versus the 12 and the same offer holds but I'll use a different load in the 12. But after all, you know there is "NO MORE" than 5 yards difference and probably more like three. Yeah, sure. | |||
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Quote: Well, I'm not familiar with the Wild Turkey Foundation's views on the use of rifles, but whatever it may be, I'm surprised to have it cited by a man who calls turkeys "feathered rats"  . If they look on my use of the rifle unkindly, then I equally disdain their use of the "blunderbuss", and I figure, as David Brinkley says, "everyone has a right to my opinion"  .I don't shoot a .410, although, again, I have no problem with those who do. In refering to "smaller gauges", I was indicating 20's and 28's (pardon my lack of specificity), and I'll continue to assert that, with "birds the size of dove and quail, there's little difference in the effective range of the smaller gauges versus the larger gauges". Clays are a different story, and having only a modest amount of experience with them, I won't argue, except to note that the average score among skeet experts only varies one to two birds per 100 between the 28 and the 12. Let's just leave it at this: You're a "big gun" man when it comes to wingshooting, and I'm a "little gun" man. I currently own three or four twelve gauges, and used to have more. I sold some of them because I found that I nearly never reached for a twelve for anything I hunt these days, and the remaining twelves haven't been out of the safe in quite a while. Well, that's not entirely true: I do find the twelve gauge superior for trimming dead branches high up in my oak trees; number 4's seem to be fairly effective, and it beats the hell out of climbing up there on some damn rickety ladder at my age. Okay, let's return to civility on this issue, since I enjoy your posts and you are obviously a person of both reason and good humor, and only have a few unreasonable prejudices (to which we are all subject and, to an extent, entitled). By the way, how about an update on said Hogzilla? | |||
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Stonecreek: Ok, truce but.....I rest my case. Wild birds are harder to kill cleanly than clays as a rule (the spinning of the clays when they are thrown usually allows the centrifugal force to tear them apart when a pellet cracks them, usually 3 hits will break them, sometimes one, sometimes seven won't, you never know for sure, Remington Blue Rocks seem to be harder than most normal sized clay pigeons), head shots being the exception and they are relatively rare at longer distances. Clays being, more or less, infinitely repeatable are a reasonable test for any cockamamie theories someone comes up with regarding the supposed minimal differences between gauges. The reason there is only a bird or two difference between the 28 and the 12 averages at skeet is simple, you're shooting them well within the maximum sure kill range of the 28 (which is about 30 yards with skeet loads)......the crossing pt of skeet targets is 23 yards from station 4, if memory serves. Make that 35 and the differences between gauges becomes much more obvious very quickly. A decent shot can easily break clays at 50 yards or more with a 12 using trap load 7 1/2s, try that with a 28 sometime and tell me how minimal the differences are. Hogzilla has not been spotted anymore. I had a friend kill a triple (with 5 shots) on pigs over the weekend near where HZ supposedly lives. Great shooting IMO. Killed a walking sow with the first shot at about 130 yards and then killed 2 running small (25 pound) pigs out of the next 4 shots, barely missing one more. The man can shoot. This with a 742 .308 he chose for its quick repeat shot capability. Amazingly, almost a year to the day before (actually 364 days) that on my place, he killed a legitimate triple (3 for 3) on pigs with a HB Savage bolt action .300 WSM. Closest was about 90 yards, and the last one was at about 200. This guy has the best hand/eye coordination of anyone I've ever met when it comes to moving targets and guns. I can outshoot him easily on still targets with a rifle, but let it start running and the shoe is on the other foot. He is death with a shotgun as well. BTW, I call turkeys "feathered rats" because they eat up my deer corn before the deer get there, and, since I don't hunt them (I've never had wild turkey cooked that tasted better than sawdust (and usually tough sawdust at that) and I've had it by people who swore their's was the best ever)I don't have any real affection for them. They are kind of neat to watch, I will admit. However, my ranch's game management program is letting them increase rapidly and we've got a bunch of Easterns on my place now. Not that I really care, but one friend thinks life begins with turkey hunting, so he likes it anyway. | |||
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Your recounting of your friend's hog triple has me in a mind to totally hijack this thread! I got a triple myself last fall with a BAR .270. Hogs were strung out in a line perpendicular to me at about 200 yards, and when the magazine was empty, three of them were on the ground. As much luck as skill, but I'll take credit any way I can get it. Now my son, on the other hand, really likes doing it the hard way. On the same wheat field he came upon two standing coyotes at about 200 yards. He took a shot with his Sako .30-06 and made a clean miss, then proceeded to knock down both (now) running coyotes with successive single shots at 215 and 240 yards. And he's a lefty shooting a right-handed bolt! Well coyotes and hogs aren't exactly bird shooting, but when they're on the run, it is kinda akin to "wingshooting"  | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Hunting Bird Shooting Re: caliber/choke questions...
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