Which does your area have? I'm in W. TN and this at one time was tradition rich as a mecca for wild quail hunting. In fact it's the home of the Grand National Field Trials at the famous Ames Plantation (many times I've been amongst the gallery following the dogs on horseback). But now, sadly the wild birds are virtually extinct. The last one I saw was about 6-7 years ago.

Many reasons. It's a long list in my opinion. Bringing back hawks and owls a long time ago started the downhill ball rolling. Coyotes played a huge part. I also suspect changes in aerial spraying had something to do with it. And I am positive the fairly recent arrival of fire ants is what finished them off.

Habitat's what those who know enough to write magazine articles always blame. As an explanation it's become so ingrained that you're not even supposed to question it. But there are good reasons to suspect habitat's actually secondary to predators. It has played in the past a part with SOME farm properties but never has with others whose habitat stayed favorable. Yet they lost their quail anyway.

One thing that's NOT the problem is hunting.

We were always careful to not overshoot because we knew how many coveys etc and that they had gotten real scarce county/state wide. Anyhow, here's the thing...we still had wild birds WITH hunting when all the surrounding farms had long since lost theirs with NO hunting going on. And all these places had pretty much the same habitat.

So that brings us to the pen-raised quail. It's become a thriving cottage industry here. I went last year and netted some 80 birds for the freezer. Much easier shooting than wild birds, and there are a few places that do a pretty good job with it and seem on the whole to have ones that at least will flush. Other places are harder to say.

So, who all's quail hunting??

Fire ants are pretty hard on our populations however rain is our biggest variable in the population equation.

Perry

California quail out here. All wild in our area as far as I know. Our population looks great this year and at least here on our place, we should have a great season. That said, I have shot some pen raised bobwhites in the south and had a great time.

I remember the good ole days of my youth back when my dad kept pointers and setters in our back yard. He would go out nearly every evening after he got off of work and come back with a mess of quail for the dinner table. There were birds plenty here in N Central Tx and on weekends I would go with him to my pops ranch and we would get our limits everytime. I guess I sold my last setter back in 1990 and ever since the population has dropped to nothing. At our home place (300 acres) we never shot out a covey, only taking two or three birds. But I guess the when the fire ants came in and a few years of drought hit back to back it finished them off. I've really missed those days but I doubt they will ever be back. JC

I have planted or supervised planting of of native hardwood trees on over 2500 acres of retired croplands and inspected many thousands more acres planted by others such as CRP, etc.

From the 3rd to about 5th or 6th year of those plantings that are about 500 acres in size or larger, the bobwhite population explodes. When the trees reach about 7-8 feet tall and crowd out the grasses the quail population quickly decreases until there are only 1-2 very small coveys left through the winter.

These reforested habitats are full of fire ants, raptors, and many species of mid sized mammals that prey on quail, but the birds manage to multiply rapidly.

Bobwhites require all stages of plant succession from bare ground to mature hardwood forests. The monoculture farming and forestry practices that now dominate the southeastern states on a huge landscape scale has left the quail with virtually no habitat to survive at a sustainable population level. Clearcuts provide a short duration habitat component but soon turn into a pine plantation, so that is not sustainable.

The sloppy farming methods of early settlers that dominated the southeastern U.S.landscape up till about 200 years after European settlement created an ideal habitat for the bobwhite quail.

We will never see many wild quail again unless we give all the liberals wanting a handout about 80 rural acres in the south and a housetrailer and make them scratch out a living off the land. I'm convinced the bobwhite would benefit for awhile but that would not be sustainable either for the liberals probably would be unable to survive in such an environment and die out and the quail would too.

Merg

That's quite interesting. What I'm seeing is a mixed bag of some habitat changes here and there plus a lot of predation everywhere. You have landowners (some may be trust beneficiaries in NYC or wherever who've never seen the place you know like the back of your hand) and farmers who aren't opposed to hunting but they just don't care about it. And these are into maximizing profits and will not think twice about clear cutting everything and "cleaning up" those treelines or fencelines and draining swamps on whose edges quail hang out. In fact given their druthers the whole place would be one big laser levelled bean field. Those who hunt are constantly at the mercy of this.

Then to bring quail back you're starting at ground zero. The farm I hunt on I'm certain was the last in the area to lose its birds. There're now just none left to my knowledge anywhere in the area and quite possibly in the county. So you've got that going against it, plus any re-stocking would be in the face of heavy, well established predation.

Speaking of which, we've also all but lost our cottontails and swampers also. I suspect but can't prove that the coyotes have done a number on them.

I could go on with this, but when a place like the Ames Plantation has to resort to using pen-raised birds to run the Grand National Field Trials there's a problem that has to go beyond habitat. They've hosted that event since 1915 and have about 14,000 acres. And presumably have access to the best in state assistance and resources thru their connection to the Univ. of Tenn's Dept of Foresty, Wildlife & Fisheries.

Unofficial word I hear puts the blame on fire ants. That's from the field trial museum. I already thought that. It occurred to me also when several years ago I read in a magazine that certain ground nesting species of songbirds are way down because of fire ants raiding the nests. It then dawned on me that the same treelines we always found quail in now had those fire ant mounds about every few yards and that they didn't used to be there at all. And now no quail whatsoever.

Anyway, the state is trying to put a good face on this. A publication I received talked about cutting back on how long the season runs. I read that and thought, who are they trying to kid?? Given that there are no quail, you could make the season year around and it wouldn't matter.

I'm not sure where to start, but I think some determined coyote hunting wouldn't be a bad idea. The ants are harder to say.

At any rate, I'll try hard to resist commenting on that final idea about moving liberals down here and giving 'um forty acres and a mule in return for having quail back...of course now if it were a choice of giving up quail to get rid of libs...

Shack,

You seem like a nice guy concerned about quail so when you and others get tired of this long post just quit reading and go to something more interesting. I am going to air out on the subject this one more time and that will be it.

There is no doubt that the over abundance of mid sized mammals are a limiting factor on ground nesting birds of all kinds including quail, turkey, and waterfowl.

Using waterfowl as an example, the nesting habitat is nothing compared to what it was in the fifties. When ducks are cramped for nesting space that is when predators can really take a toll on them. The same goes for quail.

Fire ants may impact quail some but there are no fire ants in the Ozarks that I'm aware of and the quail have practically disappeared from that region also so I'm told by my quail hunting friends that still have land there. The pastures there are now fescue grass that quail cannot move thru easily. Quail like to move on the ground and fescue impedes their mobility. And again, we have the monoculture. No diversity of seeds that legumes, grasses and forbs provide and very few insects.

What quail thrive on is what most would consider today to be neglected farmland. And it can't be just a few thousand acres just like waterfowl cannot sustain their populations on a few thousand acre of prairie pothole habitat. It has to be millions of acres.

Wildlife managers, both state and feds, cannot purchase and manage enough neglected farmland and keep it that way on a LANDSCAPE SCALE to sustain wild quail populations. It was tried in Arkansas in the '80's by the Game and Fish Commission on state owned areas and failed with many dollars in equipment and labor down the tubes. I know because I was part of that effort.

The founder of the Monsanto Company, Edgar Monsanto Queeny, bought 6000 acres north of Stuttgart, Arkansas around the 1940's. He wanted a good portion of it managed for quail. The more they managed, the fewer the quail. Mr. Queeny asked one of the hired men named Atlas where all the quail were. Atlas said, "Well there is a covey around 'ol what's his name's houseplace and there is another covey down there by the other houseplace." Queeny said, "Well Atlas, it looks like we need to build some more houses!"

In the eighties I lived in an area south of Stuttgart, Arkansas with plenty of rolling hills, a few almost unmanaged fields with a diversity of plants intermingled with blackberry thickets, small woodlots, old vacant homesites, and a few other active homesites like mine. Folks would run some livestock and use fire to control the thickets when they became overgrown. It was a mini paradise for quail. Because of the small size of this area (about 700-800 acres) it only supported 4-5 coveys in fall and by mid winter the coveys would dwindle down and combine together into one large covey that survived the winter. We hunted these birds very lightly and monitored the population and enjoyed watching the dogs work as much as anything.

In about 1989 some guys bought the biggest and best chunk of it. I asked them what they were going to do with the place. They said "We're managing it for quail hunting." After the state's demonstration of failed efforts, I knew these gents could do no better. They pulled all the old car bodies out of the tangled thickets, graveled the roads, and manicured the whole place with neatly planted food plots and bush-hogged trails. They over hunted the place the first year killing a few birds and after that it was over for quail there.

I realize that on a landscape scale people can't neglect their land, sloppily farm it and pay taxes on it and come out ahead but that is what would take to get our wild quail back. Merg

Thanks for your input. Your spot south of Stuttgart sounded much like what I've used in Hardeman County TN from the '70s thru today.

And speaking of Stuttgart you may know the Little LaGrue Bayou area east of town..where Tower Rd meets #130. There's a large reservoir up that road that I duck hunted on for many years. It was run since the 1940s by a family that owns a sporting goods store in TN. Four members only. I kept it as limited as I could. It was very good hunting in its day.

The Queeny place I never saw but I've heard of it. He was mentioned in Nash Buckingham's books on quail hunting and waterfowling. And it's hardly worthy of mention but my grandfather was a financial exec with Monsanto in St. Louis during the 40s. Probably worked around or with him.

Anyway, if the occasion ever arises here I'll be happy to swap Arkansas duck hunting stories with you. Take care.

In my opinion, shooting game farm quail or pheasants is like taking food stamps. If you have no choice so be it.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
In my opinion, shooting game farm quail or pheasants is like taking food stamps. If you have no choice so be it.

465H&H

Let's just quit all the snobbery and faux posturing. If we spent 1/2 the money on upland bird habitat and conservation as we WASTE on waterfowl, we would have similar results!

And the Argentinians would not be able to sell
the slaughter of our birds! But I do imagine the farmers and timber merchants would want a cut somehow!

POLITICS! POLITICS! POLITICS! COUPLED WITH A GOOD DOSE OF IGNORANCE AND NAIVITY.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Slater:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
In my opinion, shooting game farm quail or pheasants is like taking food stamps. If you have no choice so be it.

465H&H

Let's just quit all the snobbery and faux posturing. If we spent 1/2 the money on upland bird habitat and conservation as we WASTE on waterfowl, we would have similar results!

And the Argentinians would not be able to sell
the slaughter of our birds! But I do imagine the farmers and timber merchants would want a cut somehow!

POLITICS! POLITICS! POLITICS! COUPLED WITH A GOOD DOSE OF IGNORANCE AND NAIVITY.

My comment has nothing to do with snobbery. I am more into the hunting of pheasants rather than simply shooting pheasants. There is very little hunting involved in game farm birds. If I simply want to shoot than it is sporting clays for me. A lot more shooting and much less expensive. Pheasant populations are low enough in Idaho that getting one or two birds in a days hunting between two of us, takes all of our hunting skills. I get more satisfaction out of getting one wild bird than shooting a dozen game farm birds. Saying that I did go to a management area for a released pheasant two years ago. During a chem therapy progaram, I was so weak that I could only walk for thirty minutes and my pointer needed to get out or miss a whole hunting season.

I completely agree with the above statment on spending money on habitat improvement.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Don Slater:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
In my opinion, shooting game farm quail or pheasants is like taking food stamps. If you have no choice so be it.

465H&H

Let's just quit all the snobbery and faux posturing. If we spent 1/2 the money on upland bird habitat and conservation as we WASTE on waterfowl, we would have similar results!

And the Argentinians would not be able to sell
the slaughter of our birds! But I do imagine the farmers and timber merchants would want a cut somehow!

POLITICS! POLITICS! POLITICS! COUPLED WITH A GOOD DOSE OF IGNORANCE AND NAIVITY.

My comment has nothing to do with snobbery. I am more into the hunting of pheasants rather than simply shooting pheasants. There is very little hunting involved in game farm birds. If I simply want to shoot than it is sporting clays for me. A lot more shooting and much less expensive. Pheasant populations are low enough in Idaho that getting one or two birds in a days hunting between two of us, takes all of our hunting skills. I get more satisfaction out of getting one wild bird than shooting a dozen game farm birds. Saying that I did go to a management area for a released pheasant two years ago. During a chem therapy progaram, I was so weak that I could only walk for thirty minutes and my pointer needed to get out or miss a whole hunting season.

I completely agree with the above statment on spending money on habitat improvement.

465H&H

I take it you would not enjoy a european driven bird hunt?

Here in central NC the numbers of wild birds has dwindled down to almost zero. I lease one farm and have access to two others that have a few wild birds hanging on. We do not hunt them anymore and do everything we can to improve their chances of survival. This means setting out feeders and killing every stray cat, fox, and hawk we see.
We mostly shoot pen raised birds now. I think I only killed a handful of wild birds last year off farms that we visited.
NC is trying to re-establish part of the game lands in our area as quail habitat. At this time they are not allowing any hunting or dog training. I have no idea how successful the program is or will be, but at least part of the money spent for wildlife habitat is being spent trying to improve populations of quail.

quote:

Originally posted by Don Slater:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Don Slater:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
In my opinion, shooting game farm quail or pheasants is like taking food stamps. If you have no choice so be it.

465H&H

Let's just quit all the snobbery and faux posturing. If we spent 1/2 the money on upland bird habitat and conservation as we WASTE on waterfowl, we would have similar results!

And the Argentinians would not be able to sell
the slaughter of our birds! But I do imagine the farmers and timber merchants would want a cut somehow!

POLITICS! POLITICS! POLITICS! COUPLED WITH A GOOD DOSE OF IGNORANCE AND NAIVITY.

My comment has nothing to do with snobbery. I am more into the hunting of pheasants rather than simply shooting pheasants. There is very little hunting involved in game farm birds. If I simply want to shoot than it is sporting clays for me. A lot more shooting and much less expensive. Pheasant populations are low enough in Idaho that getting one or two birds in a days hunting between two of us, takes all of our hunting skills. I get more satisfaction out of getting one wild bird than shooting a dozen game farm birds. Saying that I did go to a management area for a released pheasant two years ago. During a chem therapy progaram, I was so weak that I could only walk for thirty minutes and my pointer needed to get out or miss a whole hunting season.

I completely agree with the above statment on spending money on habitat improvement.

465H&H

I take it you would not enjoy a european driven bird hunt?

You are correct. I wouldn't for pen raised birds. Wild red grouse drives or red partridge in Spain would be a different matter. Although on second thought, if someone was to lone me their matched pair of Purdy game guns, I might make an exception.

465H&H

My brother lives in OK. he has 37 acres with another 900 of timber land around him no one hunts it without his permission and no one hunts Quail for sure not even him he has been trying for 10 years to get a very huntable number without any real sucess, he feeds on a regular bases during the winter and spring he has watched the hawks damn near wipe out a 10-15 bird covey, during the spring he has seen black snakes wolf down every egg in a nest, he has seen turkey poults kill young quail a few days old and eat them.

I just talked with him Sat. and he said he has more quail this year then any year in the past as he put a low hung cover over the feeders and stacked up more brush piles then in the past along with killing every snake he can find.

So it looks like i'm heading back in Nov. for a quail hunt.

The comment by 465H&H about shooting farm birds being equivalent to taking food stamps says it all for me. I could not agree more. I am not a good enough writer to explain why shooting at wild birds is different and an immeasurably different experience from shooting at preserve birds. (It has to do with not only how hard a shot it might be but also with the emotion of hunting afield) As the old joke says:" You had to have been there!".

Regarding the pen raised birds, it's been my experience that the quality of the shoot varies tremendously from location to location. I went to one spot were we provided the dog and they give you a map showing where they put them out. You walk to the spot but don't see anything until you look down. You can guess the rest. You look at the bird and it looks up at you and you kinda wonder "now what?"

But another place handles this real well. It's on a large farm and the guide also farms and has been hunting a long time and does a good job of duplicating a wild bird hunt. He can provide the dog and has a kennel of excellent dogs, as I recall Brittanys. The birds flush pretty good and when you miss they fly a long way just like wild birds and hide out in hills, woods and almost inaccessible gullies and briar patches. Except for sometimes lighting in trees it's quite realistic.

The other thing that varies tremendously is price. Some put on a big luncheon and try to re-create the feeling of a plantation hunt or something of that nature. And they charge for it. Others are more just you and the guide and it gives you a chance to develop something of a personal relationship as if he's closer to a hunting buddy than a strictly business deal.

Anyway, it now appears it's either this or nothing for many of us. So, have others here been on quail preserve shoots and have any opinions or even recommendations? I'm particularly curious if there're such things as commercial shooting preserves that have wild birds or pen raised birds supplemented by wild birds. I have seen cases where the pen raised birds survive but it's only a very brief time.

The one and only reason for the downfall of quail is habitat. Sure, predators get some quail, but these birds normally see 70-80% mortality anyway and thousands of years of evolution has counteracted that with high reproductive rates. The landscape throughout the Northern Bobwhite's range has changes drastically in the last 200 years. The southeastern forests used to be a longleaf/grassland dominant area that was maintained by fire. Much of this land was turned into farmland after European settlement. Well that didn't hurt near as much as when agriculture moved away from planting many smaller fields subdivided with hedgrows, etc. into very large monocultural fields. The introduction of exotic turf grasses into pastures has been extremely detrimental. Quail thrive in native warm season grasses that do not form sod. These grasses typically grow up, not out. This leads to a vegetation that allows quail chicks to easily move to catch insects that are crucial to survival in the first weeks, as well as providing protection from avian predators. Fire naturally regenerated these areas and maintained them as ideal quail habitat. Quail management has to happen on a landscape level. You cannot manage 100 acres for quail and expect to have a ton of birds. Most extremely effective quail management scenarios take place on 1000 acres or greater, really the more the better. Ideally, the land around needs to be high quality habitat as well. It is very easy to lay blame on predators but, the predators have always been here, and quail always thrived. Now humans have altered the landscape in a way that quail cannot effectively adapt. As Aldo Leopold put it, "the key to intelligent tinkering is to retain all the parts".

model7LSS:

Since you sound like a guy who knows something about "bobwhite" I want to ask you something. I grew up on NY property about 65 miles north of NY City. We had about 130 acres of mixed pasture, swamp and what I guess I would call ravines. Also a brook (real brook with native brook trout) Anyway, we had quail and they were "natives". Inexplicably (to me and my family) they disappeared shortly after WW2. We never figured it out. We did not hunt them -simply because they were "natives" and nothing changed in the surrounding dairy farm and apple orchard community -but the birds just disappeared and they were quite a number of flocks. Any comments would be much appreciated. (It's been a mystery that has haunted me all my life. Fact)

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
model7LSS:

Since you sound like a guy who knows something about "bobwhite" I want to ask you something. I grew up on NY property about 65 miles north of NY City. We had about 130 acres of mixed pasture, swamp and what I guess I would call ravines. Also a brook (real brook with native brook trout) Anyway, we had quail and they were "natives". Inexplicably (to me and my family) they disappeared shortly after WW2.

They obviously were Axis spies!

Sevenxbjt:

If they were Axis spies I wished they had surfaced so that my father and they could all have shared a drink as enemies now reconciled - because my family never shot at them! (Seriously, California, it has always bothered me and still does)

quote:

Originally posted by Gerrypeters375:
model7LSS:

Since you sound like a guy who knows something about "bobwhite" I want to ask you something. I grew up on NY property about 65 miles north of NY City. We had about 130 acres of mixed pasture, swamp and what I guess I would call ravines. Also a brook (real brook with native brook trout) Anyway, we had quail and they were "natives". Inexplicably (to me and my family) they disappeared shortly after WW2. We never figured it out. We did not hunt them -simply because they were "natives" and nothing changed in the surrounding dairy farm and apple orchard community -but the birds just disappeared and they were quite a number of flocks. Any comments would be much appreciated. (It's been a mystery that has haunted me all my life. Fact)

were you useing any DDT

JD

465H&H is correct in his posts. It struck me as snobbery by Don Slater to pretend that it was snobbery. Pen-raised pheasant or quail is a travesty, and does not represent the hunting of the past, but does probably foretell the hunting of the future. Nothing like confused, weak-winged birds sitting around waiting to be found like Easter eggs.

A European driven pheasant hunt? Sorry, about as interesting to me as shooting clay pidgeons; again, no HUNTING involved. (Any historical significance in a EDPH is meaningless to me.)

People that have only hunted pen-raised birds have no appreciation for the difference I'm sure. Very sad that that is all we will be left with some day.

I like the DDT thought.

If I cannot hunt wild birds, I do not go anymore. I have hunted pen raised birds and there is no challenge. It is just killing for killing sake.

The main differences between wild birds as I remember them and a place that does a better than average job of pen raised are that with pen-raised quail (1) you know you're going to find them (2) you know exactly where they are (3) you know exactly how many there are (if you shoot a double barrel, the guide will put two out to make it more convenient) (4) about 50% of them will need encouragement to flush or fly, and that's done in different ways (5) you know almost exactly when they are going to flush and therefore you can have the gun already mounted to your shoulder and the safety off..which accounts for the MUCH greater success ratio on shots (6) about 20% will light in trees and you will have to shoot them there (7) ones not shot will be eaten by predators by the next day (8) you don't hunt if it's real wet or has just been raining hard because they probably won't fly (I've seen hunts cancelled at the last minute because of that), and (9) in my very unofficial opinion, wild birds were somewhat better eating.

How do the two resemble each other? (1) both are Bobwhites (2) they are raised for flight rather than for meat, like restaurant quail (3) they do flush (4) they do fly the same distances roughly as wild birds and do it repeat times (5) they do head for deeper cover (6) they are frequently hard or impossible to locate as singles (7) they are unpredictable as to what direction when they flush (8) they are unpredictable on how many will flush at one time (9) you do have to get the shot off fast (10) they do fly as fast (11) the few that survive past a day or so quickly revert back to wild birds (12) you're still bringing home something to eat from the outdoors (13) it's getting you out of the city and out where you most want to be, and (14) you still have to make the shot.

For that last reason, I've heard guides say their least favorite way to do this is with just one customer. The problem is it puts pressure on guide and hunter if the hunter is not a decent shot.

Several reasons for that. One, the hunter is paying for those birds regardless. Two, the guide has other customers scheduled for afternoon hunts and can't take all day helping you locate singles. It messes up his guiding business. Three, the guide makes a lot less money on solo hunts. So they don't really like fooling with this unless you're going to go on and kill in quick order all of the birds that were put out for you. In other words, the pressure's on you to shoot accurately and quickly. And so you have a challenge of a different type to hunting wild birds.

This part I can't help adding - the guide I most like using doesn't mind hunting solo with me. He seems to regard me as an exception of sorts. But, instead of taking that as a compliment I think, well, no wonder. Anybody could consistently do the same after spending several decades of walking up wild ones..

You must realize that in the thick of things, 130 is nothing when it comes to quail. Most good quail management occurs on acreage of 1000 or more. Now this is not a set in stone number, as if there is very good habitat around you, a lot can be done with just a few hundred acres. I would be willing to bet that several factors all combined to reduce your quail population. Wildlife management it never as simple as one explanation. A lot of times, what happens on your property in terms of population, is extremely dependent on the land around you. These animals are not bound to your property, they are free to move wherever they please (usually). As for the argument of pen reared birds, there has never been a study that suggests pen reared birds are capable of establishing a self sufficient population. Do search on google for a paper from 2004 I believe, coauthored by a guy named Mark Smith. They released pen reared birds marked with radio collars over a couple of years and found some interesting results. As for hunting pen reared birds, you must realize that everyone is not as lucky to have wild birds. If re-establishing wild bird populations were that easy, it would have been done long ago. I personally have never hunted wild birds, nor really hunted quail. I have only helped a guy train his dog and shoot birds as she worked. But the first time one of those birds rose struck a chord deep inside me, and opened me up to a world I never knew. I think pen reared birds have a place in introducing new hunters to the sport, and creating awareness about quail.

I hunt extensively here in the arid desert and high chaparral of West Texas. I have 3 ranches leased for a total of about 60,000 acres. We have spent a considerable amount of time and money attempting to unravel the "Boom-Bust" population swings of our native quail populations - predominately Blues (Scaled Quail).

Here's what we have laerned:

1) Rains dictate more than any other factor the failure / success of a hatch and it's subsiquent arrival to adulthood. Rain is the deciding factor that influences cover, insect populations and favorability for nesting and sustainment of broods.

2) Late spring temperatures: Too hot bad - too cool bad! It's about that simple!

3) Upswings in avian and mammilian populations make a noticeable difference - seems that every critter makes a meal on quail; eggs, hatchlings, broods and adult birds are #1-2 on the menu for myraid of preditors. For example, a big upswing in rabbits brings all potential quail preditors up in numbers and as rabbits decline quail are the next to get it, so to speak. Rattlesnakes take their toll as well! The Texas quail biologist Dale Rollins has reported transceiver equipped adult quail ingested by large rattlers.

4) Artificial feeding and watering. This has a very positive effect on sustaining adult birds through tough times, but no data is conclusive as to its benefits on nesting; the recharging of the population. The fact that more adult birds are carried through tough conditions to participate the spring mating season bodes well for the practice of feeding and watering adult populations.

5) Hunting pressure. The is no doubt that excessive pressure on coveys will contribute to a population decline, thus a ethical and intelligent approach to the harvest is mandated. Our desert birds are seemingly here one day and gone the next, thus great care must be taken in the harvesting of these or any wild bird populations for that matter. As a rule we practice a weekly pasture rotation and a 2-3 bird limit per covey. This ensures that on a good year a covey may only be shot into once or twice per season. Covey size is another criteron. Any covey under 10 birds is best left alone - climatic, predatrory and natural mortality will reduce that number to about half in short order, thus small coveys are duely noted and left to replenish.

6) Use of trained dogs: I feel that it is bordering on unethical to hunt quail without trained dogs. With dogs, birds are more readily located which means less invasion into habitats. Secondly, significantly more downed birds are recovered as a result of using dogs. This simply means that fewer birds are shot to fill a bag limit. Good math here!

7) Sufficient gauge and shotshells; I know of few dedicated Blue qauil hunters that employ the use of sub-gauge guns for these stout and robust birds. I used to be guilty of this practice, but have since mended my ways. Me and my croanies are all accomplished shots, most are Masters Class clays shooters, live pigeon shooters, or both. A 12 bore with high velocity ounce and an eigth to ounce and a quarter of #6-7.5 is the weapon of choice. We could all hit and bring down birds with tight choked .410s if we wanted to "show-out", but we are reminded that this is a fragile resource and save the shooting demonstrations for the clays-course!

Habitat destruction is the last factor and given our uninterrupted landmass is not a problem at this point in time.

That concludes this report from the wild-wild west! Hope y'all have a great season this year! God save the Bobwhite!!!

Good information Jeff. I need to clarify a point I made that to me seems contradictory at second glance. Im my first post I said that the only reason for decline is habitat, then said that no one thing can be at fault. Habitat is the most crucual element in the entire equation. Another thing is I am refering the the history of land use in the Southeast where land was traditionally longleaf pine/grassland maintained by fire. The real fact of the matter is that we really don't know exactly what to do to try to bring the birds back. Reestablishment of native warm season grasses is a great start but it is very costly, labor intensive, and takes many years before you may see anything in the way of increased birds. Simply, more research is needed.

Really no research is needed - common sense and a stiff spine is what is in order. I've hunted a bit in your part of the world and I can only conclude that it has been a serious assault from all directions that has decimated the Bobwhite in the Southeast. The south was "discovered" in the late eighties and with it came a HUGE influx of populations of all types; flors and fauna. Charlie Daniels said the "South is gonna rise again" and it has! Everywhere there is development; housing, business, strip malls, etc - look at Dothan for example! With that sprawl there went the uninterrupted farming and timber tracts of bygone days. The preditor populations exploded; Coyotes, Coons, Skunks, feral cats, rodents, Grackles all of which benefit greatly from increased human habitation...Kudzu (sp.) has destroyed vast areas of habitat. - The big loser - quail! Habitat destruction both physical and the gutting of which I see not end to is the plague of your region.

The longleaf pine biome is almost gone in the southeast and you correctly point out, peserving what is left / re-establishing it is quite costly and difficult to maintain. With realestate valuse still way overpriced and timber at an all time premium, it is very difficult to convince a landowner to invest a small fortune in retro-forestry and to invest in the long term. A guy of 50 years of age puts several million into a sizeable tract and it will take the rest of his lifetime to come to fruition as far as a suitable habitat. He dies and most likely his heirs will split-up the holding and there it goes - you've seen this a thousand times.

What's the solution? - there isn't one. sadly, it is too late. Too many people, too little land. Now, only the super rich, or public holdings will be able to sustain what is left. Consider yourself lucky if you have a place to manage and occasionally hunt wild birds. Remnant ecosystems are all that is left and that's declining. Preditors of all types now concentrate on what is remaining - a double whammy!

I am not trying to propegate cynicism here, but the sooner we realize that the end has come the sooner we will lock on to what is left and pay the cost if we deem it worth the fight. I commend the efforts of folks on the SE that are fighting the good fight - it is a tough one.

Out here where I am in W. Texas the decline impact has yet to make a serious dent, but we have our own sst of issues to contand with. We have problems on the horizon. Goats for example are becoming more and more popular of a commodity and with them comes the single most destructive vehicle since the plough! Goats literally eat every single square inch of biomass within reach. They will clean a pasture out down to and including the subterrainean flora leaving nothing for quail, etc. to live off of / find cover. You can see on any place where these animals are ranched a complete and absolute destruction of the habitat - all of it, not just the grasses. Pray that somebody discovers that goats cause cancer or something of the like! Fortunately for us the recovery rate out here is very short in comparison to that of a Longleaf pine forest, thus the damage can be mitigated in a decade or so. We have millions of uninterrupted landscape,but that doesn't mean we are immune to the threats that have plagued the SE. I alws caution that we are one or two exotic plants away from disaster - the Russian Blue Thistle (Tumbleweed)is our version of Kudzu and has to be kept in check. Wind energy is starting to impact the region and with it comes the dreaded ranch road system and with that the chopping-up of the ecosystem - we are studying the effects if this right now. Jury's out!

For my part I'm busing my butt to become a Billionaire - sounds corny, but the more land I can buy and maintain the better. I also pass on my experiences with other land managers in hopes that something will stick. For now the sheer land mass is our saving grace, but someday in the not too distant future that too will get misused and be chopped-up just like it has been your area.

I'll be starting up my 3rd company in '10, a green energy consortium that actually manufactures and sells a piece of viable technology for residential, commercial and governmental use...Stay tuned!

JW

Very interesting once again Jeff. And once again I didn't make myself clear. By more research, I meant more in the way of finding a successful way to get smaller landowners to get with the big picture. However as you pointed out this is a very daunting task when you factor in land prices, the timber industry, and hunters who care nothing about quail. Many hunters do not realize that quality quail habitat is also great deer and turkey habitat. That's right, you dont have to plant acres of soybeans, corn, Biologic, RackMaxx, etc. to get deer. If we could only get the hunting public to realize that what they see on TV isn't so true. But i guess that is why there is a helluva lot more money in that than wildlife biology based on science.

J D:

Your short post raised a real point! No, we never used DDT -but we did use a product called "Chlordane" (as I remember) used to get rid of foundation carpenter ants and plain creepy-crawlies. We gave local dairy farmers permission to raise cattle corn and I just don't know if they used any insecticides or whatever fertilizers. This permission was extended during early WW2 because we wanted to be good neighbors and help out our neighbors (who had been dirt poor during the Depression and welcomed the use of our land to raise the corn to feed their herds in winter so they could use their own land for raising corn that was eaten by people ("Country Gentleman" and "Golden Bantam" are names I remember for eating corn) -and therefore a cash crop for them.. These were not your big farms of the Middle West or South but usually averaged about 125-175 acres)

Many thanks, J D. I have a feeling that you have solved a puzzle that has haunted me all my life. (It's funny that with all the talk about "environment", it never occurred to me to think about pesticides or fertilizers. Guess it's a classic case of not seeing the forest for the trees!)

model7LSS, were you KA at Auburn? I was elsewhere..

Anyway, the easy conclusion to draw is that there is no solution, meaning no hope. That's the one thing I don't agree with. It doesn't have to be like that if enough people want to bring them back. In that case, ANYTHING can be done. So, let me throw this plan out. First assume I'm talking about a piece of land I know because I've hunted it since around 1970. 400 acres. I know wild quail can survive in huntable numbers on that size tract even when there's not many on adjoining properties, because, well because we did it. Also assume no controlled burning. I know that's a real good idea, but it's impractical here for woods considerations. And assume it's row crops only, no pastures. And figure it's eaten up with the usual predators.

1) Get the owner on board and then get him to get the farmer lined up to co-operate. Many of you will immediately know this is saying a lot in most cases.

2) Get the farmer to stop cutting and clearing areas quail need to survive. Get him to allow to grow back areas already destroyed.

3) Investigate whether chemicals used for aerial spraying are killing quail, and get the farmer to order something else be used if that's a problem.

4) Give the quail something they like to eat. When our quail population was at its best was a time when the farmer, for whatever reason, grew a lot of corn and cut it high leaving a good bit on the ground. I guess it was silage. I don't really know. Anyhow, the quail loved the stuff and could frequently be found out in it feeding. When this was going on, they were really also fine eating..juicy and, well, corn fed..

I know there are other ways, but you get the idea.

5) Do something in a definitive way about the predators, and by predators I mean mainly one - coyotes. The others have always been there, such as bobcats. They take quail too (ever seen one mounted with a quail in its mouth?), but somehow I just don't consider them a real problem to be eradicated. The coyotes are different and as many as possible must go. The fire ant problem has got to be attacked too. At our place we have an advantage, because we know where the quail like to covey up and can go after the nearby fire ants.

As for the coyotes, everyone who is a dedicated bird or for that matter, deer hunter, in my opinion has an almost "professional duty" to also be an enthusiastic varmint hunter. Get an appropriate rifle and a coyote call and let's get busy. Or get a trapper to help out.

6) Only then do we get to re-introducing quail. And we have to give the landowner and farmer the same financial incentive that allows us to hunt other game (ducks and deer) - we're going to have to form clubs and offer to lease property. Then we can get it run anyway we want. I believe with quail this is already being done.

Yes, I am a KA at Auburn. Burning in timber stands isn't necessarily what needs to happen. Many times grassland and/or row crop vegetation that has been left over is burned. Note that what you plant may not be as important as how that plant grows. Quail need vegetation that provides aerial protection (so tall grasses, shrubs, etc) but also has open ground at the base of the plant. This is crucial to a quail chicks survival. The first two weeks of a chicks life it eats up to 90% insects. These bugs provide much needed protien for growth and development. The more bugs, the faster the bird grows, and the quicker it is able to fend for itself in terms of escape from predators and thermoregulation. This open ground allows the chicks to easily move through and catch insects. You also must realize that these birds are only a few inches tall, so you have to get down on their level. Imagine trying to run through a grown up patch of fescue at that size. Open ground also allows for easy discovery of seeds produced, and encourages germination of seeds to make more seeds for older birds. Burning further increases the production. Bushhogging/mowing lays down vegetation that if not removed, impedes the bare ground we are looking for. Many landowners looking for quail are told the best thing they can do is throw their bush hog away. Well kept land looks pretty but has little wildlife value. Acreage ideally should be split up in thirds that are burned about every three years, kept on a rotation that at any given time, you have three different ages of succession to provide birds with the vegetation structure and resources they need. Realistically, managing quail does not have to be that expensive, but you must be realistic in your expectations of quail populations. Programs are available that help with the cost establishent of quail habitat (CP-33 habitat buffers, etc) and may pay you to do it. Consult your local biologists to find out about these programs.

On to the predators. It seems simple that if you remove what eats quail, you will have more quail. Right? Well its not that simple. Even in the scenario that predators are keeping quail populations in check, it may be highly unlikely that you can do anything about it. The occasional coyote/bobcat/raccoon kill will not cut it. You have to be intensive, to the point of hiring a trapper. He has to remove a bunch, and keep it up for several years. Then remove more for more years. Ever hear of density dependent breeding? A study showed that in high removal areas, coyotes had more pups that areas of little/no removal. You almost have to remove around 60-70% of a population to be effective at reducing populations. Most places this just is not possible, especially in the southeast. If you think you are going to call coyotes and kill a bunch here, you are nuts, they are too damn smart. I wish there was one magic bullet that encompassed quail management, but there isn't. Educating land owners and managers is all we can do to help them make the best decisions possible based on science, not heresay.

What I meant by "woods considerations" on burning is that we can't burn left over row crop vegetation because of how close it is to the woods. You don't want to set the woods on fire. That's an obvious observation but it's not just my opinion. We've had a state ag/forestry agent evaluate the whole place for re-introducing quail and that was his opinion too.

There really is little or no "grassland" except a few fallow "back to nature" scattered smallish areas. We also have no pastures or fescue. What we have are row crop areas, woods at all stages of maturity, tree/fence/brush lines and hedgerow/briar patch areas dividing woods and fields, and swamps and small ponds with surrounding natural quail cover. In other words, a perfect set-up for quail as is. At least that's how the quail used to see it.

The in-between areas provide plenty of aerial cover and although we have always had the usual hawks and owls I really don't think they have been the main problem (I had an owl light a foot away from me last year while up in my deer stand..surprised him as much as me). Doesn't matter anyway, it's illegal to shoot them obviously.

The coyotes that we have are not "occasional". They are intense. I agree they can't be totally removed. But I disagree that their numbers can't be controlled if one's willing to work at it. As for the other predators, we had them and we had lots of coveys of quail at the same time for decades.

So it can be done. Personally I think the financial incentive is the key to the whole thing. When landowners see wild quail as a cash crop and hunters start re-interesting themselves in the sport, then I'm confident there will be quail. I am certain this in fact is what will wind up happening. Club hunting is already the norm in duck hunting..you can't even do that without the co-operative effort and substantial expense required. It's also rapidly becoming the direction deer hunting is headed (note: with all this I'm talking about the Mid-South only).

In any event I wouldn't have bothered starting this thread if I really thought it was hopeless, because that would make it a waste of time to discuss. Anyone care to have the last word?