Have used and then hung up the muzzleloaders two different periods in my hunting career. First used a traditional then last used a CVA inline when they were first coming out. Believe I used a powerbelt bullet and had good results. Never shot an Elk with one, but I may have an opportunity to hunt cow Elk in a late season next month. I still have the 50cal CVA Magnum (150gr powder max) that uses the 209 primer. It is legal for short-range weapons season here in Idaho as is (open sights so I will probably limit range to 125yrds). I would like to not clean too much for a month, so if it exists, I want a propellant that I can foul the bore with then not clean for the month of January. Expect the weather to be very cold. What are the latest propellants and heaviest powerbelts that will suit my purposes in my 50cal?

Thanks much,
Deke.

You might check out the thread on Blackhorn 209 powder on pg 2, I've used it some and have been pretty impressed with the lack of fouling.

Deke, what model CVA is that? Serial number end with 95 or 96?

http://130.94.182.159/recalls.htm#CVA1

Blackhorn209 is quite a potent powder. In no case should you exceed the owner's manual limit of 100 grains loose powder in that rifle. I would recommend somewhat less.

CVA has a new model - the Accura - that I think to be one of the finest muzzleloaders currently available. The barrel is 416R stainless and is beautifully done.

Be sure that you read the powder manufacturer's load recommendations as well as your rifle's manual. Go by the most limiting values specified.

I bought it new, I believe in 2002, and it is a Staghorn Magnum, but will check the serial #. I seem to recall that it could take 150gr of powder. I only played with it for a couple years before realizing that the muzzleloader tags were as hard to get in Colorado as rifle so I went back to rifle. With the Stag Mag are you saying only 100gr of Blackhorn 209?

Deke.

As for slugs, I never shot anything with the powerbelts, but see that quite a few folks think they are too soft. This will be for Elk and I wonder if the 44cal Hornady low drag sabot will be a better choice. Never shot sabots, so what should I expect with loading and plastic fouling, and cleaning, etc.?

Deke.

CVA always specifies 100 grains Maximum of loose powder of any sort of any powder listed in their owner's manuals.

Blackhorn209 is too new to be included in ANY rifle manuals so far as I know - so certainly observe the 100 grain limit.

The 150 grain rating you refer to does not relate to loose powder - that rating is for pellets. (ie.. 3x 50 grain Equivalent pellets) Even with pellets, two is plenty for most any purpose.

Blackhorn209 is not recommended for use with bullets weighing more than 350 grains. CVA manuals advise no conical exceeding 400 grains.

I think you should try some Hornady FPBs atop about 90 grains by volume of BH209. http://www.midsouthshooterssup...em.asp?sku=000036600

Checked the serial # and I am okay.

Read up a little, and for Elk seems like folks push for a very heavy bullet, so I might think that the Hornady Great Plains 385HBHP might be a better choice, but if it is much softer than the 350 then maybe not.... Thoughts?

If BH209 is not recomended for 385gr bullets, what might be another good powder choice given minimal cleaning requirements?

Deke.

Next best would probably be TripleSeven but you might wish to research the crud ring problem.

T7 is corrosive but less so than Pyrodex or true black. Read up on its use at Hodgdon and on these forums.

Not sure how BH209 will work with Powerbelts. They may not be tight enough to make the powder burn correctly since it requires very tight fitting sabots and a closed breech. You might consider Pinnacle, or American Pioneer or Black Mag'3 (if you can find any) as all of these ascorbic acid based powders are relatively non-corrosive (they will draw moisture so they are not completely non-corrosive but better than Pyrodex or Tripple Seven). The other option is get a smokeless powder rifle if you can find one that will shoot bullets that you can use if smokeless is allowed in your state. Other than that put up with having to protect the rifle from extended exposure to corrosive powders.

Your CVA does not have a solid breach plug and is not recommended for use with BH209. By solid, I mean that the primer is not completely enclosed by the breach plug. I have one like yours and it specifically says not to use that type of plug. They are afraid that enough of the primer ignition will "bleed off" and not be hot enough to fully ignite the BH209.

Ahy of the other powders should work fine.

Deke,

I use Powerbelts in my 45 cal rifle. I've taken three deer with them, using 3 x 50gr Pyrodex pellets. The Powerbelts work ok for deer but they come apart. I would recomend something that will hold together better both for deer and elk. They might work better over 100grs for deer but, imo, they are too soft for critters as large as even a small elk.

Good luck with your hunt.

JPK

Good catch larrys! The American Pioneer is available close by so I am leaning towards it since according to MLKeith, it is ascorbic acid based and relatively non-corrosive. BTW, with American Pioneer, what would be the recomended cleaning regimen (solvent/patch after how many rounds of non-plastic projectiles, how many rounds before total clean, what type of cleaning solvents do a good job, how long could I leave it uncleaned in dry/cold/winter/Idaho conditions, etc.)?

Leaning heavily toward the Hornady 350FPB or a White 400 conical. Any final comments on these?

Deke.

Did I miss some thing? Did New Idea Ho change the policy on the use of Inline muzzle loaders during muzzle loader season?
Last I knew you had to have an exposed hammer and other things to be legal.

Al

If you use one of the Ascorbic acid based powders (Amer Pioneer, Shockeys, Pinnacle, Black Mag'3 to name a few) they clean up with water and when loading must be loaded with some pressure on the bullet to be consistent. Keep the cans sealed to keep them from drawing mosture before shooting and after shooting be cautious about letting much moisture get to the rifle before cleaning. I personally have had the best luck with Black Mag'3 but the distribution is really poor. I am not sure you can still get it and have not had any experience with the solid versions just made available online.

The season I am considering is "short range weapons," not "muzzleloading." I am friends with the f&g wildlife biologist for our area and he explained the differences for a ML (shotgun slugs and archery also allowed for SRW);

for both, primer must be exposed when hammer is cocked, which mine is.
for ML cannot use a 209 primer, but for SRW you can, conversion kits to a cap okay.
for ML cannot use sabots, but for SRW, you can.
must use loose powder for both

Have chosen the APP and 350FPB's. Have read that many have gone months without cleaning without damage (saw somewhere that one guy is up to 10,000 rounds without cleaning), but also read that one guy broke his breech plug free to prevent seizing. I shot 5rds through mine today (still holding a 100yrd zero so ready to go), put electrical tape back over the muzzle (we are in blizzard season), and would like to go 5 weeks without cleaning. Should I break the breech plug free (was well lubed prior)?

Deke.

I'm not sure I read your post right. Have you shot, not cleaned the gun, and are now asking if you can wait 5 weeks to clean it? Or did you clean it, reload it, and now want to leave the charge in for 5 weeks?

Either way the answer is yes you can go that long without cleaning, but I expect the MZ to be runt if you leave it dirty for that long. On the other hand I accidentally left a load in my Encore all off-season once and it fired that fall with no damage to the gun.

As for the breech plug, if it's not tightened to securely and it's lubed you'll be fine.

Dan42,

The gun is empty, uncleaned, plug well lubed, bolt closed, elec tape over muzzle, exterior wiped down. I would assume I am okay for 5wks....., but don't know for sure.

What is runt?

Deke.

I think he meant "ruined". I haven't had much experience with APP but I would definately keep my eyes on the bore for corrosion.

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:


What is runt?

Deke.

Not paying attention, should have been ruined.

Now as to the gun. The breech plug should be OK. The barrel, well I wouldn't do it, but that's just me. Understand that while the APP is cleaner than black powder it will still draw moisture and can cause corrosion.

Sorry if I missed it, but exactly why don't you want to clean the gun?

Whether with my smokeless centerfires or my smokepoles, I have always prefered a fouled bore. I have always seen my POI's change (mostly drop) with the bore has been fouled with a couple rounds. With the ML I have always experienced better detonation after a couple rounds than the first (even if I fired some primers and a squib). I guess it comes down to confidence. I know that detonation will be fast and POI will be tight and predictable from a fouled bore. I will check the bore, but in an environment where 50% humidity is the highest, and it is stored with the muzzle sealed with elec tape and the bolt down (maybe I should throw a fired primer on as well.....) I would expect corrosion to be nearly impossible, but I don't know for sure....

Deke.

Understood.

IMO you're going through a lot of trouble for nothing. I know some bullets recommend a fouled barrel. With the options available I see no need for that. There are plenty of loads that will give you 1.5" groups at 100 yds in a clean barrel, what more do you need for hunting?

So, to me, you're making this harder than it has to be.

I would think that leaving the barrel uncleaned is the the easiest thing to do..... Am I missing something?

I guess you have a point, until the day you need to replace the gun due to a pitted barrel. On the other hand maybe you'll never have that problem.

I guess this is the way I feel. 99.9% of the MZ's I've seen, and the bullets for them, require a clean barrel for best accuracy. Now, if you're willing to be limited to certain loads, or you are willing to give up accuracy, so you don't have to clean your gun that's your call.

Good summation Dan.

I foul my high power center fires then leave them uncleaned for 2-3 months. What I have read recently about the BP substitutes leads me to believe I can do the same using non-sulphur powders (especially APP). I am as zealous over accuracy/precision as anybody can reasonably be with a hunting rifle, and continue to get 3/8 - 5/8 MOA out to 300yrds (too hard to get calm enough days in East Idaho to register any further) in rifles costing me less than $500. My secret for that is simple, fantastic reloading technique, and that is what I am seeking here. Thanks for your input, and if you think I am off and still think I am in danger of damaging my gun, I appreciate your concern.

Now if I could get closer to 1500fps with the Hornady 350FPB and 100gr of APP, I would be much happier. I chrony 1195fps and had higher expectations.

Deke.

Deke, I guess I am just paranoid. I would clean it. You can always shoot a fouling round either the day you hunt or the day before. I have never used the APP, but with the same rifle, I have found that mine really likes to rust if I do not clean it thoroughly if I use the other substitutes, even the ascorbic acid based ones.

Now if I have a load in a clean barrel that has not been fired, I do not worry about that as much, as long as I do not take it from warm to cold to warm again to cause condensation.

Just my thoughts.

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:

Now if I could get closer to 1500fps with the Hornady 350FPB and 100gr of APP, I would be much happier. I chrony 1195fps and had higher expectations.

Deke.

I use to use 385 gr great plains bullets loaded to around 1200 fps,and they seemed to work fine for whitetails at short range.

Have you looked in to the thompson center
"bore butter" way of shooting muzzle loaders?I have been using it for years,but still clean mine after shooting it. They claim you dont have to clean your gun for thousands of shots of blackpowder.Just use ol' number 13 bore cleaner and bore butter to "season" your bore,and you dont have to clean all the time,just like you want to do.I am not sure what they say about the powder you are thinking of using.


http://www.tcarms.com/customerService/faq.php#a6

quote:

I have found that mine really likes to rust if I do not clean it thoroughly if I use the other substitutes, even the ascorbic acid based ones.

I will be cautious and check the bore with a light occasionally.

quote:

I use to use 385 gr great plains bullets loaded to around 1200 fps,and they seemed to work fine for whitetails at short range.

Elk are a whole lot different! Hide/fat/bones a whole lot tougher, and the cows I have shot being in the 450lb plus range much thicker....

Deke.

I am also a fanatic about the accuracy of my hunting rifles - "close enough" isn't something I want to hunt with-, but I've been concerned about your plan for leaving a fired barrel uncleaned for 5 weeks since your original post (I have done this with my "regular" guns, but never my muzzleloader).
The way I get around it is to make all my sighting in shots from a cold, clean barrel. After each round, I dissasemble & clean. I usually take the gun & target home, clean, then repeat in a day or two with the same target at the same distance - - after 5-6 rounds, you will be surprised at the consistent groups (assuming your technique & your gun are OK) and a lot more confident in your weapon's zero/accuracy.

quote:

Originally posted by Deke:


Elk are a whole lot different! Hide/fat/bones a whole lot tougher, and the cows I have shot being in the 450lb plus range much thicker....

Deke.

The whitetails I have shot with this were complete pass throughs.They might very well achieve complete penetration on elk with a lung shot.


did you follow the link I put up to the t/c website?

jb,

I am committed to the APP and am keeping an eye on the bore, nothing seen yet.

As for "in the lungs," I imagine enough penetration to kill. But hit a big bone going in, and my experience with Elk is that it MUST be a tough bullet to reliably penetrate. There bones are just so much heavier and there muscle mass so much thicker. If you have not seen them, you really have to see Elk up close and inside/out to understand what I mean.

Deke.