I have been using Black Mag3 and love it. However, recently Cabelas and other sources have quit carrying if for some reason, and I don't have a local source. I have heard of the dreaded "Crud Ring" with in-lines using 777 pellets, but wondered if the same thing happens with loose powder also. I am a side lock shooter, and only use loose powder.

I use HD T/7 3/F only crud ring I have ever had was in a T/C Barrel using 209 primers , I have several 209 guns and none of them have crud rings , only the T/C

I've had the crud ring in my Knight MK 85 using 777 bulk powder.

Joe A.

My Encore 209x50 suffers the crud ring with both Pyrodex and 777 pellets (lit with Winchester 209s). Since I hunt with a cold clean bore I'm going to see if swabbing between every shot prevents the ring from forming. Has anyone here tested the theory that the Remington 410 primer is less inclined to contribute to the crud ring?

I could not find the .410 primers anywhere but my Omega is a major crud ring former. It makes such a bad ring that I have to use a brass brush to get it out for a second shot. I did convert to the .25ACP using small rifle primers and the crud ring was about half as bad. Still too much to load a second shot. Consequently I bought five pounds of Black Mag'3 and have not looked back since. 777 is not a powder that I will use in my Omega ever again!!! If you cannot find Black Mag'3 you might try looking for the new Goex Pinnacle which is very similar in formulation. Also American Pioneer is too. If you can find them only get the fffg versions as the ffg is very coarse.

MLKEITH

Thanks for the advice about Black Mag3, but the reason I was looking for a substitute is I can't find it anymore. I don't have a local source, and all of the online sources I had have quit selling it for some reason.I ordered some Pinnacle today, and based on what I have read it should do nicely. Time will tell.

I have been using a traditional sidelock rifle for over 12 years, but only shoot true blackpowder (FFg). Can you describe "Crud Ring" for me? As I only use blackpowder in a black gun I don't have a picture in my mind of what it looks like in any other gun.

T-7 and Pyro seem to do it in my guns also, as it was explained to me upon firing the pellets are bouncing up, just before igniting,,

THe smith suggested I use an Ox-Yoke over powder wad, it seems to hold enough pressure on the pellets its knock it out, I have also switched over to using the 209 cup with the small pistol primer insert, works great.

I get the 777 crud ring with loose powder as well as with pellets. In the Omega it appears that the flat faced breechplug and hot 209 primers cause the worst case. If the breechplug is switched to the concave face and cooler primers are used the crud ring goes from awful to fairly bad in my Omega. I have slugged the barrel and it is exactly .500. I have to select .451 bullets and thinner sabots to be able to load when clean. One shot with 777 and there is no chance of a second load without cleaning between. Powders like APP, Goex Pinnacle and Black Mag'3 do not cause the crud ring in my rifle. I do not get a crud ring with Pyrodex either but the fouling is pretty heavy.

quote:

Originally posted by MLKeith:
I could not find the .410 primers anywhere but my Omega is a major crud ring former. It makes such a bad ring that I have to use a brass brush to get it out for a second shot. I did convert to the .25ACP using small rifle primers and the crud ring was about half as bad. Still too much to load a second shot. Consequently I bought five pounds of Black Mag'3 and have not looked back since. 777 is not a powder that I will use in my Omega ever again!!! If you cannot find Black Mag'3 you might try looking for the new Goex Pinnacle which is very similar in formulation. Also American Pioneer is too. If you can find them only get the fffg versions as the ffg is very coarse.

They are called Kleanbore Muzzleloader Primers. The 410 issue is debateable.

Nobody has mentioned a crud ring while using real black powder so maybe that's why Ive never heard tell of or experienced it.

This thread concerns the "crud ring" associated with 777 powder. For those too afraid to use modern technology it certainly does not apply.

quote:

afraid to use modern technology

So if it causes problems with crud ring and is harder to ignight it kind of sounds like a step in the wrong dirrection. Maybe that's why I'm afraid of it. To be honest, I had planned on trying it but after trying pounds of other black replacements before I actually tried real black I realy can't tell enough difference in performance, and real black seems more reliable in my gun. But if it works for you, hey keep on using it.

quote:

So if it causes problems with crud ring and is harder to ignight it kind of sounds like a step in the wrong dirrection. Maybe that's why I'm afraid of it. To be honest, I had planned on trying it but after trying pounds of other black replacements before I actually tried real black I realy can't tell enough difference in performance, and real black seems more reliable in my gun. But if it works for you, hey keep on using it.

NB,

If you use it, you probably will not go back.

My initial observations when I first tried 777 was: No smell , Not hardly any smoke , Used the same bore mop to swab in btween shots for that entire range session and it only turned grey (Not dark Black w/ piles of smelly crud all over it and have to do multiple passes)

777 is a great powder, The only problem I've had was when using the pellets and a Rem Mler. Not enough fire would pass through the nipple and ignite the charge. While using it in a tighter ignition system (Knight Disk), it's been great.

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by NBHunter:

quote:

afraid to use modern technology

So if it causes problems with crud ring and is harder to ignight it kind of sounds like a step in the wrong dirrection. Maybe that's why I'm afraid of it. To be honest, I had planned on trying it but after trying pounds of other black replacements before I actually tried real black I realy can't tell enough difference in performance, and real black seems more reliable in my gun. But if it works for you, hey keep on using it.

Sounds like you don't like 777. I've hear alot of guys are still using black powder. My guess is that in 5 years the black powder fans will be dead and gone (no flame intended,pardon the pun). I never hear that 777 is hard to ignite,unless you're trying to ignite it in a cap fired muzzleloader.

777 is designed to be fired in a modern muzzleloader using 209 primers. The 209 Kleenbore Muzzleloader Primer/777 combination is the best combo out there IMO. Black powder is relegated to flintlocks and cap fired ignition system muzzleloaders. If you look at the sales data it will confirm this. 777 is clearly taking the lead from Pyrodex.

Maybe a poll is in order.

quote:

I've hear alot of guys are still using black powder. My guess is that in 5 years the black powder fans will be dead and gone

Unless the stainless synthetic inline crowd has some sort of purge planned, those of us running flintlocks expect to be very much alive in 2011 and beyond...

Look at the sales data. Flintlocks vs. inlines is as about as convincing as you can get. Even PA lets you hunt with inlines now. Now THAT'S a step in the RIGHT direction!

quote:

Originally posted by nordrseta:

quote:

I've hear alot of guys are still using black powder. My guess is that in 5 years the black powder fans will be dead and gone

Unless the stainless synthetic inline crowd has some sort of purge planned, those of us running flintlocks expect to be very much alive in 2011 and beyond...

I agree; I started with a stainless synthetic stock Omega and just bought a Lyman flint Trade rifle and some Swiss powder. This addiction runs both directions the best I can figure. I am really looking forward to getting the flintlock figured out. (also have a T/C Hawken .54 with a Green Mountain .50 barrel to fit it). I try not to get locked into any specific area as long as it loads from the muzzle I am interested.

And I think MLKeith has exactly the right attitude.

Anyone ever get a lung full of T7 smoke? I don't see how they could then claim no smell. The stuff has an odor and effect that almost chokes me. I like Triple7 powder okay, but hardly think it's all that superior. Definitely has its own set of problems to overcome.

The more choices the better. Every rifle has its own favorite combination and the fun is in finding out what works best. If you are the type that only has a m/l for the extra week of deer season, then drop a couple of pellets of whatever into your one inline and seat whatever WallyWorld has on special on top of it. If you are the kind that enjoys shooting and experimenting, then odds are you already have several, maybe in different calibers, and a good selection of propellants and projectiles to keep you busy. Each firearm is a puzzle to be solved as to what it shoots best, how easily it is cleaned, how versatile it is to use. There will always be those of us eager and willing to experience our history hands-on, to gain some understanding of the mechanics and mind sets that shaped our world. Likewise there will also be those who could care less about the past and think only the newest and latest is best and won't have anything else. As either extreme is equally myopic in its own way, I think a sensible approach should lie somewhere in between.

quote:

Look at the sales data. Flintlocks vs. inlines is as about as convincing as you can get

Depends on when you start running your comparison, 1610 or 1985

FWIW I run a 209x50 in addition to my roundball rocklocks but it's not as much fun

As for the original post my 209x50 gets crud rings with Pyrodex or 777 pellets; my blackpowder guns foul from one end of the barrel to the other

I had picked up a box of the kleenebore primers the first of the year when wal-mart had them marked down,so yesterday was going to the range and decided to take some t-7 fffg and try them out.I would have to say that if I was going to shoot t-7 these are the primers I would use,it still left a slight crud ring but swabbing between shots with a spite patch I didn't have a problem getting the bullets down the barrel like I did useing other primers when first testing t-7 when it first came out.They are pretty expensive for primers though,don't remember what the regular price was but they had them marked down to $5.Not trying to plug the primers or t-7 because I went back to pyro-select a couple years ago and I usually shoot a savage any more.I used 3 different loads and checked the fps (each 3-shot group)using a encore 50 cal and a 200 gr SW bullet if anyone is interested in the speed I got.
110 grs--2000 fps avg.
120 grs--2090 fps
125 grs--2123 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by small fish:
Look at the sales data. Flintlocks vs. inlines is as about as convincing as you can get. Even PA lets you hunt with inlines now. Now THAT'S a step in the RIGHT direction!

Pennsylvania only allow inlines in the October Muzzleloader season OR as a "Lesser weapon" substitute during regular firearms seasons.

the "after christmas" season is still flintlock only, but the patched roundball requirement has been dropped. It's now "Any single projectile"
and that includes "Mini, Maxi and Sabots".

Frankly, I find inline Muzzle loaders to be used by most people as an "end-around" or a "cheat" to meet the letter of the law in regards to "primitive weapons" seasons.

I also think that black powder substitutes are more of the same.

Hey, if you are carrying a stainless steel muzzle loader with an inline ignition system
and a composite stock you're gonna like kinda stupid weaing buckskins... so what you are doing is MODERN hunting with a tool specifically designed to meet some rules and circumvent others.

I won't claim to be doing any differently, but show some respect for those that do.
afterall it was the buckskin set that managed to get the primitive weapons seasons on the books in the first place.

And if anyy of us want to use a modern weapon you'll probably do what I do, I'll get my 30-06 out of the safe.

Or I could get one of the new Savage inlines and stoke it up with RL7 or H335 and make a 458Mag ruger #1 owner jelous....IF a 209 shotgun primer will ignite those powders

AllanD

My rem 700 mls shoots powder and pellet T7 without any rings formed. BTW I use win 209W primers as well. I also have never experienced a hang fire with T7 but I do have the jobber 209 conversion installed (cabela's) vs. the remington.

Knight disc exhibits a small crud ring with loose T7 but I can still get a secondary load in. I don't use this rifle for hunting so like all range sessions I swab between shots.

I haven't been able to get any of these newer "clean" powders locally so can't compare them directly.