If Savage can make a viable smokeless powder muzzle loading gun and others can, why can't TC??

Has anyone tried smokeless powder loads in the Encore 45 or 50 Cal ML??

There is a lot of people doing it but I am not one of them.They have warnings against doing so for some reason.Be safe buy one made for smokless.

There are a lot of things you can get by doing for a while, but it will always catch up with you in the end. Not so smart people have a way of ending there life early and sometimes the life of others. If the people at TC say not to use smokeless powder in my TC Encore I think I will choose to believe them. Let your common sense guide you on what to do.

Sorry if I sound like an a-hole but I have had several friends die doing not so smart things.

Forget the smokeless in the muzzleloaders and just use Black Mag'3 or Goex Pinnacle which makes almost the same fouling as smokeless. Performance will be enough for any reasonable shots on game so why would anyone consider smokeless with the chance that you will cause severe physical harm.

Most of the Top of the Line MLer companies do not use the Grade of steel that smokeless Mlers use. Your smokeless Bbls come from High Power Centerfire Hvy Barrel Blanks. Not sure what grade steel TC is using but, I'm willing to bet their MLers couldn't handle the high pressures of smokeless. It would be like holding on to a pipe bomb. Sure it may last for a few shots but, once fatigued who knows.

I would however like to see some data noting the pressures of slower burning smokeless powders like AA 2015 BR or H4198 in a Smokeless Bbl vs. 777fffg or Black Mag3. It seems to me like the BP subs would have to apply more pressure than the slower SL MLer powders if velocity were equal.

You could just have SMI build you a Smokeless bbl for your TC for about the same price as an aftermarket bbl.

Reloader

Everyone is right, of course, about using smokeless in a black powder ML, but in order for the new BP subs to generate velocities in the low 2000 fps range, they must be pushing the pressure up near the smokeless pressures. Maybe they release pressure more slowly than smokeless which begs for an answer to Reloader's question about AA 2015BR or H4198.

I have made several replica cannons out of mauser take-off barrels and shot them with black powder and round ball....they work great. One of them was put away not properly cleaned and it turned into a rusted mess. I thought I would do a destruction test (while hiding behind a tree) to see how strong they were. I started with 5 grains of bullseye and two balls and gave up trying to blow up the cannon when I got to 50 grains of bullseye and 3 balls. Those Germans used good steel!! I have no intention of trying that with the TC.

Guys,

Something just occurred to me...it happens slowly some times!!

If you can push a 1 ounce (437 grains) 12 ga slug out the barrel at 1500 fps in a shotgun at way less than 20,000 psi why can't you do it with smokeless powder in a ML with a 250 or 300 gr slug?

Anybody know what pressure 777 or Black Mag3 generates with 150 grains and a 300 gr slug?

Sorry if I'm flogging a dead quadraped, but it just seems that with the right load you could safely use a quality ML with smokeless powder.

You are probably right; in fact, I shoot smokeless loads in my 40-65 Rollingblock, however; and this is the big one. A large percentage of the muzzleloaders are not full fledged reloaders and likely do not have the knowledge of the various smokeless powders available and do not understand that some are similar to blackpowder in pressure rise characteristics and some are not. The other problem is that smokeless is not always at its best when it is completely contained and muzzleloaders always want to seat the bullet on the powder. Some smokeless needs a certain amount of free space in the cartridge to function properly. There are just too many variables to open up the muzzleloading program to smokeless without a lot of development like what Savage did.

To follow up on the shotgun analogy...
3/4 oz = 328 grs.

3/4 oz. Longshot Win. 209 WAA28 14.5 gr / 10,700 PSI 1150 fps
15.1 gr / 11,200 PSI 1200 fps
15.6 gr / 11,600 PSI 1250 fps
16.2 gr / 12,200 PSI 1300 fps

I know it is not linear, but if we get the velocity to 1800 fps, can we do it under 20,000 psi?

Anybody know what the pressure is for 150 grs of 777 and a 300 grain bullet?

Range Velocity Impact Drop ToF Energy Drift
0 1800 -1.5 0 0 2338 0
10 1753 -0.77 0.09 0.02 2218 0.47
20 1712 -0.15 0.29 0.04 2115 0.58
30 1672 0.35 0.61 0.05 2018 0.76
40 1633 0.72 1.06 0.07 1925 1.01
50 1595 0.97 1.63 0.09 1836 1.34
60 1557 1.08 2.34 0.11 1750 1.74
70 1521 1.04 3.2 0.13 1670 2.22
80 1485 0.85 4.21 0.15 1591 2.78
90 1451 0.51 5.37 0.17 1519 3.43
100 1417 0 6.7 0.19 1449 4.15
110 1384 -0.69 8.21 0.21 1382 4.96
120 1353 -1.55 9.89 0.23 1321 5.85
130 1322 -2.61 11.77 0.26 1261 6.84
140 1293 -3.86 13.84 0.28 1207 7.9
150 1265 -5.33 16.13 0.3 1155 9.06
160 1238 -7.01 18.63 0.33 1106 10.3
170 1213 -8.91 21.36 0.35 1062 11.63

Looks like a 170 load on paper...wonder if it will work?

I was able to answer my own question from Mr. Randy Wakeman's Web site.

"A word of caution is in order. Hodgdon does not allow use of more than 100 grains of their Pyrodex or Triple Seven pellets in .45 or .50 caliber muzzleloaders, and they clearly, loudly proclaim that warning with every box of pellets sold. Several people have asked, "What pressures do three pellets produce?" Well, there is no finite answer. Much is necessarily contingent on projectile weight, type, and caliber of rifle. I shoot a few flaming pellets into the air on the 4th of July. The kids get a kick out of it, but as there is no projectile-there is little pressure. Lyman Ballistic Laboratories has published three Pyrodex pellet-powered saboted bullet loads that develop 27,000 PSI out of a 22" test barrel; Triple Seven pellets can produce more pressure than that. Not all inline muzzleloaders have been tested with Triple Seven pellets, and it is a matter of public record that the casual take "three pellets and call me in the morning" approach can lead to an immediate trip to the emergency room. There are a few makes and models of inline muzzleloaders that have been extensively tested with three pellet loads, and I'll mention them right here: current production Knight Disc Rifles, Thompson Omega and Encore rifles, and the Savage 10ML-II".

you forgot the TC black mountain magnum.designed especially for 3 pellet loads.

With the speeds some guys claim they are getting with BlackMag3 and the heavier bullets , I'm not so sure you can gain a whole lot ballistically going to smokeless ?