I have a Savage Model 10ML-II in 50 cal. I had a problem with it miss firing due to the sabots not sealing. I called Savage and they had me send it in for repair. They charged me $234 to replace the barrel and test. I got it back a week or so ago and I went out and bought new powder, primers and sabots. I went to the range and loaded the first round only to find that there was no resistance at all when seating the bullet/sabot. The sabot and bullet went about 25'. I loaded another round and had the same result. I brought the gun home, took it apart and cleaned it and stepped out in the back yard to test fire another round. I picked up the sabot and bullet together 25' from the muzzle. I would have expected Savage to have at least fired a three shot group with the rifle after rebarreling it. I am using the MMP sabots recommended by Savage and the Hornady XTP bullet recommended in the manual. Any recommendations before I box it up and send it back to Savage with a not so nice note?

Ed, that is too bad, I'm sorry for your headaches. Savage has a great basic design in their ML's but their execution sucks! e.g. must remove trigger guard/action screw to remove bolt--assinine!

My only recommendation would be to send a note that is really succinctly written, and not so nice is OK in my opinion. I would invest some time to try and get the letter to someone a little higher up the food chain, maybe even calling the dealer you got it from, and asking him to call the rep or distributor he got it from and see if you can get to someone at Savage that ain't just a 'front line' contact. I would even spend some phone time pursuing this...

I can't even imagine them charging you in the first place--sounds ridiculous--did you buy it used or something???

And finally, seriously--it's not possible that they changed calibers on you and you're putting 45 cal sabot loads into a 50 cal is there???
Just saying--I've heard of weirder stuff...



Good luck to you

Fish30114,
Thanks, I did buy it new from a local dealer I've known for years and I am the only one that has ever shot it. The sabots fit just snug enough to know it is the 50 cal barrel, but you can seat the bullet with one finger pushing the rod down. I do plan to call the dealer and ask him to make a call for me. The note I put in the box to ship it back was on the back of the bill from Savage dated 1-10-10. I also asked that they at least shoot a three shot group before sending it back to me.

What powder are you useing and what is the charge wt?

The load it shot best was 46gr of IMR4227 with 250gr Hornady SST's. When I started having problems this past season, I went back to the book load with 250gr XTP's. The problem seems to be either the bore diameter or the sabot diameter. There is no pressure seating the bullet/sabot.

Measure you barrel I.D. at the minor and major. I would like to know the dia. Calipers will be good enough.

Ed, Id make a copy of the bill before I sent it back just for your records. Did you try your old sabots? I would think it would be a sabot problem before a barrel problem.

Let us know the outcome. God Bless, Louis

Yes on the new and old sabots. I tried one of each with the same results.

before you send it back you might want to try a little more troubleshooting to find the problem. that way you can be more sure of what's going on when you compose your letter. if you know someone who casts .45 colt bullets you could get some .452" diameter (i assume the xtp's are .451") and see if that gives you the resistance you are looking for with the sabot when loading. do you have any conicals like the Hornady Great Plains bullets? you could try one of those on a reduced smokeless load or try some black powder or a sub with it to see if it's an ignition problem. anyway just some thoughts as i would personally rather do some diagnostic work so i had a frame of reference to draw/write a note from before sending it back.

have you tried sr 4759 it has worked in all the savage i have ever shoot (5 different rifles )the load i like is 42gr/sr4759/ 300rem .458 /mmp orange sabot. the sabot MUST be tight or you will have miss fires or hangfires clint

wait a second. If they found a problem with the original barrel, it should have been replaced for FREE! it was apparent to them that there was a flaw. Theres no way in hell i would have let them take advantage of me like that, You need to call and get your money back.

Did they tell you why they were replacing your original barrel? This might determine why you were charged for the repair.
Service from Savage is usually very good and they have been known to replace barrels that were previously damaged as a result of user error and replaced them free of charge. I'd be curious to find out why you were charged for your repair that was possibly a manufacturers defect.
Savage also claims to test fire rifles after replacement barrels have been installed and they usually provide the test target when the rifle is returned, to indicate acceptable accuracy is acheived.
It sounds like you're rifle is presently indicating that an insufficient seal for the bullet/sabot to bore is the culprit. Like already suggested you should somehow measure the dia. of the bore to determine what bullets you need for your particular gun.The 250 gr. sst's and xtp's in .45 cal are .452 dia. mmp black sabots are a tighter fit than harvester black sabots so your alright with that.try some .457 remingtons with the standard black mmp sabots that should seal it enough to get it shooting. 300 gr. bullets offer a little more resistance than the 250 gr. variety.
You could also try knurling the xtps or sst's you have and bump up the dia. a little to get a better seal.
All of this experimenting shouldn't be necessary and Savage should rectify the problem, and you shouldn't be charged for that.
Good luck.

I too have had this issue with my Savage ML-10-II.

It only happens with the smokeless powder, and usually if you are using a hotter primer. It didn't seem to make much difference with whoever's sabots, they all did it, and with increasing frequency as it gets colder (not good here in MN).

With black powder and pyrodex, I have not had this issue, although it defeats the reason I bought the gun.

I will admit I discovered this by accident, when MN changed the law for a year and said no smokeless powders in muzzleloaders, and all the sudden it worked all the time (to be honest, I always remember hearing about hangfires and missfires with muzzleloaders, and thought that was part of the game...)

After this, I tried playing around a bit, and while by no means complete, this is what I came up with- let me know how close its to your collective experience.

With the smokeless powders, I had less trouble with faster powders than slower, although this is all very relative as all the choices you are given are about the same burn rate.

The harder you compress the load, the better it works. I was using a 2# hammer and smacking the heck out of the load to compress the powder, and if I did this "almost all the time" I had decent ignition.

The less brissant the primer, the better. I started out using Fed 209 A, and as I thought it was a lack of ignition, I went to CCI 209M, which didn't work at all, and went back to a winchester 209.

With black powder and pyrodex, I get a bit of irregular velocity using a magnum primer, but it works OK, but a Winchester 777 primer seems to work fine.

Thanks

Thanks all. I tried a couple of primers and different sabots and nothing worked. The gun is on its way back to Savage again. I could seat a sabot/bullet with one finger on the rod with no pressure. The only thing I just thought of that I did't try was turning it barrel down to see if the bullet would just fall out on its own.

You shouldn't have to try to find a sabot-bullet combo that will fit an oversized bore! Savage should have the correct size in the first place. Savage should correct the problem NO-CHARGE and refund the previous bill!

If they cant do that I would be tempted to tell them to just keep it themselves!

Good Luck, Louis

If I had to worry about how hard to compress a load so it would go off I would get rid of the firearm. My Whites shoot quite well and you can literally seat the bullet with one finger. Sommetimes the ramrod will push the bullet down without additional help, and I have never had a problem with ignition...

quote:

Originally posted by youngoutdoors:
You shouldn't have to try to find a sabot-bullet combo that will fit an oversized bore! Savage should have the correct size in the first place. Savage should correct the problem NO-CHARGE and refund the previous bill!

If they cant do that I would be tempted to tell them to just keep it themselves!

Good Luck, Louis

HELL YES TO THAT!

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
If I had to worry about how hard to compress a load so it would go off I would get rid of the firearm. My Whites shoot quite well and you can literally seat the bullet with one finger. Sommetimes the ramrod will push the bullet down without additional help, and I have never had a problem with ignition...

AND HELL YES TO THAT TOO!

I wish you would have gave us the diameter of your barrel.

Ted,
I ment to measure it but remembered after I already had it boxed up. I went out in the back yard and tried a few more sabot/bullet combinations and the winner made it 22 yards.

A taxidermist that lives up the street talked to a few of his clients that also shoot the Savage inline and all but one were having the same problem. A couple had found a sabot that would seal so I am waiting for him to follow up with which sabot/bullet combination was working for them.

What is the part# of the sabot and what is the part# of the bullet?

The only part number I can find in the manual for the sabot is 50X451 from Magnum Muzzleloading and that is the sabot I have tried. The bullet is the Hornady XTP 250gr and 300gr as listed in the manual. I have also tried the 250gr Hornady SST's. I expect to get a phone call from Savage next week. They should have received it last Thursday.

I will post the sabot/bullet combination when the taxidermist calls me next week as well.

You're stacking your problems. First off, throw away that 4227. There hasn't been another powder that gave as many ignition problems as 4227. 4759 seems to be the go to powder.Next, get some 300 grain bullets. Many ignition problems go away just by upping the bullet weight. SSTs are fine, and measure .452"
MMP makes a lot of sabots, and maddenly changes dimensions. If you are using the sabots supplied with the SSTs they will quickly drive you crazy. Everyone that I know that is half serious about the Savage buys their sabots bulk and throws away any supplied sabots. If you are using the supplied ones, especially the red ones you will have problems sooner or later. You have to find a tight fit or you're beat,and lay in a supply. You can try the Magnum sub base to get the pressure up.
Doug's Savage board is about the best resource available to a smokeless muzzleloader. Every problem that comes up with loading these guns, has been discussed to death and cured.

Savage took care of my ML10 just fine. Part was my fault not using the right sabot and part was the barrel. The local gun shop owner that I know very well let his son order the sabots from Muzzleloading Magnum Products and he missed the original sabot designed for the Savage. They thought they had the right part number. They do now. Joe DeGrande at Savage personaly shot my rifle on their range before sending it back. He has also sent me the updated manual with the newer recommended loads and a supply of sabots and bullets to try. Joe did a great job of taking care of it.

Smokeless powder is harder to ignite than BP,, you are using the wrong sabots and a smokeless powder that is harder to ignite and really should only be used with 300 grain bullets, I've shot a couple thousand rounds through my savage ML2 with the factory barrel and many of those were with 4227 and 300 grain bullets,,and the only problems I ever had was when I was using sabots that came with the 250sst's,,, they are too easy to load and will not work well.

you need to be sure you are using .452 bullets and sabots that are made for the Savage ML2,, MMP12's always worked for me, I would not use subbases as they really are not needed with the correct bullet/sabot,,,,

The savage ML2 is a high performance ML, If I put 87 octane gas in my 1970 429 Cobra Jet it spark nockes, shudders and just isn't happy,,,same think with the savage, it needs the right fuel to run well but is sooooo worth it. Go over here and search the load database,,, I'd stay well away of duplex and other high performance loads for now,,, just look at the good basic loads that everybody is using.

http://dougsmessageboards.prob....cgi?board=smokeless