just posting to see who has or plans on using the Savage 10ML smokeless powder ML??? I LOOOOOVE mine. I am around 2" high at 100yds and ~2" low at 200yds.

With 44gr N110, and a 250gr XTP, she went over the chrono (IIRC) at 2500+ fps.

a pard shot a small doe at about 80yds, in the neck, and the head/neck were held on by a very small amount of skin/meat.

Been using one for about 6yrs now. I've taken about a dozen deer with the Savage and have let a couple of friends try it to take several more. I have always preferred the 300gr bullets as they retain more energy and will not come apart. My load clocks right at 2280fps. I've chrono'd many loads, including the one you listed but didn't see that kind of speed in my tests...IIRC it was about 2300fps, which is still miles ahead of the BP guns.

Have had at least one savage since the year they came out.One I have now is a stock 50 caliber and one with a 45 cal custom pac-nor barrel.Both have shot some unbeliveable groups out to 300 yds.
I target shoot with them all year trying and testing differant loads.
I posted a pic of a buck and doe I took this year with the 45 at 200 and 222yds,useing a 200 gr sst at 3000fps.
Took a lot of deer with the 50 over the years useing the 250 sst at 2450 fps.From 50 to 285 yds.
Have had and shot a lot of differant muzzleloaders over the last 60 years but like the savage the best of all.Like shooting the side locks and reg inlines too.

Love mine no mess no fuss just plain fun.

yep, gotta love it.

Have had one for about seven years. Three years
ago I replaced the .50 with a .45 PacNor barrel.
That gave the rifle true center fire accuracy.
After over 30 years of cleaning the BP-sub
rifles, this one has been a delight in more
ways than one.

Haven't had mine very long but have shot several (six) deer in a management hunt setting. So far, so good on all features except one and that is I find putting a primer into the slot on the bolt face a real pain particularly with cold fingers and/or when there is some excitment factor in the mix.

I'm experimenting with making some primer-loading-assist-gizmo buy placing a hole in a 5" piece of plasitic tubing to hold the primer. Had two different designs that worked okay at the house when the plastic was 68 degrees, but not so well in single digit temperatures.

I have had mine a 10ML-II in stainless/Lam for 6 years now and love it beyond discription. I also own a Encore and love the fact I dont just get excellent accuracy with my 10ML-II but consistant repeatable accuracy.

Also love the fact I push my 245 grain Spit Fires & 250 TMZs at 2650fps. Over all using various smokeless powders and XTPs, TMZ,s Spit Fires, .458" Hornadys, .458" Remingtons, and .458" Barnes "Os" I have kept them all at or below 1.75" for 3-shot 100yrd groups.

Once you experience the awesomeness of smokeless MLing you will not ever want to go back.

Shot these groups last tuesday with different loads at 300 yds.
I shoot the savages all year long.So I get a lot of practice.

So.........Richard isn't the only one using
tri-plex loads, eh?

What kind of speed are ya getting from the
N110, H322 duplex?

Hey Danno,
I try a lot of richards loads to see how they shoot for me.He comes up with some pretty good ones.
The tri-plex I wouldn't suggest for a hunting load because you would have to use 3 viles of powder.It has shot very well the 2 times I have tried it though.
The tri-plex was around 2812 fps and the H322 duplex was right at 3000 fps.
If I go 15 grs of the N110 and 69 grs of H322 I get over 3100fps with the 200 sst.
If one is shooting the 50 cal H322 single load the 69 gr and 250 sst is a very good load out to at least 300 yds.
I try to put a plug in for the savages anytime I can.They are great rifles.

LUV both of my smokeleass guns but my buddy hate them! Every time he hears that d@mm thing he has to help drag!!! Clint

Of all the gun shows I have went to I havent found one yet to look at or buy.

I've been using mine for 2 years. I have been delighted with the ease of finding an accurate load, it's remarkable ability to reach out to 150 yards+, effectiveness on whitetails, and last but not least, near total lack of cleaning headaches. My old 12 ga slug gun will never see the light of day as long as I can (now) legally use the Savage.

I just picked up a custom smokeless built by a smith in PA using a Remington 700 action. First time firing it, I put 3 shots into a .494 inch group at 100 (and I think it can shoot better than that, with more scope and less wind than I had). It shoots a 275 grain .45 caliber Parker at 2925 fps, with M/E approaching 5000 ft/lbs. Needless to say, deer out to 400 yards are in big trouble.

I may be very naive, but I will never own a Savage ML. Too much ink on the internet about blown up rifles because of the breech plug design.


Flame away, guys; suit is on!

That's why I opted to build my custom smokeless on an action that was built to withstand centrefire rifle cartridge pressures (Remington Model 700).

Most of the Bad ink is from a writer that was snubbed by Savage and the designer. After that this writer went on a smear campaign to hurt both. Clint

Clint, if that is the case, tell me where the other exploded rifles came from? Toby blew one true enough, but there have been others. And if memory serves, the explanation was due to a design change in the breech plug; some of the sealing surface was machined away, as I recall.

And your post does say "most of the bad ink"... Is it worth the risk just to shoot smokeless?

most of the problem is you have to have the bullet/sabot tight to the charge or acts as a bore obstruction. then you have a bulged barrel or worse. yes its worth it if you want more velocity and less cleaning.Clint

Most of the negatives you hear about the Savage are from people hotrodding them. All kinds of people including Toby were loading and recommending duplex and even triplex loads. Because of this Savage distanced themselves from Toby. In turn he got pissy and starting spreading the BS about the brechplug. As with any firearm if it used as it was designed to used it is safe.

The savage was designed for the convenience of smokeless powder not as replacement for your 300 win mag. Use the powders and loads they suggest and you will be just fine. Have had zero problems with mine. But I load it sensible. It is running same velocity as a 12 gauge sluggun. But it does it with way more accuracy way less recoil and a whole lot cheaper. Here is link to the whole Toby Bridges story. Bridges

quote:

Originally posted by mike7mm08:
Most of the negatives you hear about the Savage are from people hotrodding them. All kinds of people including Toby were loading and recommending duplex and even triplex loads. Because of this Savage distanced themselves from Toby. In turn he got pissy and starting spreading the BS about the brechplug. As with any firearm if it used as it was designed to used it is safe.

The savage was designed for the convenience of smokeless powder not as replacement for your 300 win mag. Use the powders and loads they suggest and you will be just fine. Have had zero problems with mine. But I load it sensible. It is running same velocity as a 12 gauge sluggun. But it does it with way more accuracy way less recoil and a whole lot cheaper. Here is link to the whole Toby Bridges story. Bridges

WOW!! Quite a story!

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
Clint, if that is the case, tell me where the other exploded rifles came from? Toby blew one true enough, but there have been others. And if memory serves, the explanation was due to a design change in the breech plug; some of the sealing surface was machined away, as I recall.

And your post does say "most of the bad ink"... Is it worth the risk just to shoot smokeless?

It is not worth the risk if you can't or won't follow instructions.

For those of us that can, it is no big deal.

I would dare say every gun made has blown up at least once.

quote:

Originally posted by Ontario Nimrod:
I just picked up a custom smokeless built by a smith in PA using a Remington 700 action. First time firing it, I put 3 shots into a .494 inch group at 100 (and I think it can shoot better than that, with more scope and less wind than I had). It shoots a 275 grain .45 caliber Parker at 2925 fps, with M/E approaching 5000 ft/lbs. Needless to say, deer out to 400 yards are in big trouble.

Is that one of Richard Franklin's Customs??

Sort of.

A couple of years ago, while on a late season muzzleloader deer hunt (in Iowa!), I met up with a group of guys who were there from Pennsylvania. They were each using these custom smokeless muzzleloaders, and after hearing them talk about them, and watching what they can do, I decided I had to have one.

Turns out that they heard about Richard's guns and they decided to order Richard's "How To" video and convince their local gunsmith to start building them. His name is Tim Smith, and he spent a lot of time talking to Richard to learn some of the finer details. Over time, Tim has refined his process, and his customers, including me, have tended to prefer a bit of a different style than the ones that Richard used to build.

For instance, most of Richard's guns seemed to have laminated thumbhole stocks, while we prefer normal, synthetic stocks, such as McMillan or Brown Precision. Richard's guns tend to have long barrels, while mine has just a 24 inch barrel. Richard's guns also have fairly large barrel bands to attach the ramrod. Tim uses one that is much smaller and lower profile, but I actually had him use a TC-style on mine, and it looks even better.

I promised that I would post some pics, and I will. I apologize for not doing so yet, but things have been crazy.

I can hardly wait for hunting season to get out there with this machine!

Ontario -- Funny. Americans go to Canada to go
big game hunting, and now Canadians come to the
U.S. to go big game hunting.

I also got Richard's "How To" CD and find it very
informative, although I don't care for the
ignition system used. If it could be perfected, I
would prefer a plug more similar to those made
by PR Bullet with the replaceable vent liner.

What type of bullet sizing device dose your gun
smith make for you to use with what type of
bullet? (Parkers?) Swinglock makes an adjustable
sizer but at a lot of cost and extra equipment
I do not have.

quote:

Originally posted by DannoBoone:
Ontario -- Funny. Americans go to Canada to go
big game hunting, and now Canadians come to the
U.S. to go big game hunting.

I also got Richard's "How To" CD and find it very
informative, although I don't care for the
ignition system used. If it could be perfected, I
would prefer a plug more similar to those made
by PR Bullet with the replaceable vent liner.

What type of bullet sizing device dose your gun
smith make for you to use with what type of
bullet? (Parkers?) Swinglock makes an adjustable
sizer but at a lot of cost and extra equipment
I do not have.

When it comes to whitetails there's still a bunch of places in the U.S. I want to go (Illinois, Kansas, Texas, Montana, Iowa again).

What part of the ignition system don't you like?

We do use Parker bullets (275 grain, although I hear that the 325 may be even better!). Tim uses a standard Lee sizing die.

quote:

What part of the ignition system don't you like?

If yours are the same as those Richard F. made,
the cut-down cases have to be spaced off the
case web, which varies. If the PR Bullet system
is used, head spacing is based on case length,
so they can be trimmed to that length and all of
them can be used.

Ontario N, please see PM.

I have owned my 10ML-II, a stainless version with a laminated stock for around six years and roughly 500++ shots. Before that i owned and still own a first run Encore 209x50. I fired around 2300-2400 loads out of it.

I would not trade my 10ML-II for TWO of ANY absolutely ANY other production OTC muzzleloader. Although it is still a muzzleloader and subject to some of the PITA idiocencracies that make it, well a muzzleloader. If I stick to the mild factory recommended loadings, I can shoot superb groups on parr with almost any factory made CF rifle I own.

Having said that, I almost never shoot factory recommended loads. My favorite most accurate loads push 245-250grn bullats at 2600-2650fps and 290-325grn bullets at around 2300-2450fps.

As far as the 10ML-II being a unsafe design, one should think about this for a moment. We live in a world utterly palqued by lawyers who are totally obsesed with becoming rich by suing companies, especially large ones worth tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars. If there were actually 10ML-II's out there in any sizable numbers that had a OBVIOUS AND PROVABLE factory defect or design flaw that would cause a catostrophic faliure, four things IMHO would have hapend already:
#1-There would be mutiple if not class action law suits against Savage;
#2-There would be blow-ups by the dozen, not 2, 3 or 4;
#3-Savage would issue a recall eithor willingly or by force
#4-Savage would have cease all production of 10ML-II's loooong ago. Although limited, 10ML-II's are still in production.

Savage has produced 10 of thousands of 10ML-I's and 10ML-II's and to only have experienced less than 10 blow ups that I am awere of tells me it is a safe design. I mean we are talking a failure rate of less than .00002%
I am sure that every single firearm design that has ever been massed produced has had blow ups, weather they were due to design flaws or the shooter themselves.

Now I am making a assumption of sorts here, but I am 99.999% sure once TB went public with his claims, Savage most likely had its Q/C devision try to replicate how TB claimed the 10ML-II's in question failed, if thay would have succeded, I am reasonably sure Savage would have issued a recall, as no one had been killed by any of the previous failures.

As has been stated the single biggest safety issue of the 10ML-II is farrrr to many owners of 10ML-II's load it to preform to literaly ABOVE 300wm velocities (myself guilty of this beyond doubt)and lite years beyond and in violation of the Savage stated warrenty. This fact of reality is what is the most likely cause of any 10ML-II blow-up, of this I am 99.999% certain.

I am also sure that i read that every 10ML-II is test fired for accuracy prior to leaving the factory and like mine I received along with my 10ML the the test target. Also IIRC, read that the 10ML-II design was built to with stand a double loading of any factory recommended load.

So bottom line is I love mine, and would not hesitate to allow the most precious things in my life, my sons to shoot and hunt with a 10ML-II, I belive me when I say I would not even think of it unless I had compleat confidence in the safety of the 10ML-II's design.

Just on mans mostly fact based opinion.
Arthur.