Hi all,

I just bought a .50 cal Savage 10ML-II SS, Camo.

I never used a ML before.

1. What scope do you suggest? I have heard on the VXIII with B&C reticle being very useful with the marks good to 300 yards. On the other hand, if I can use any rifle scope, I'd probably prefer a heavy duplex reticle in a 3x9 Zeiss Conquest or a VXIII 2.5X8.

2. I only have access to IMR-4227 and Hornady bullets (not sure if they are XTP or SST). Any reason to use any other powder or bullet type?
I'd be able to get some VIHTAVOURI N110 in the U.S. and\or other bullets if you think it worthwhile.

3. Can I use the Lee Dippers for my grain loads or do you really feel it necessary to measure the powder on a digital scale?

4. Between the Hornady 250 and 300 gr. SSTs, at approx. what range does the superior B.C. of the 300gr bullet overtake the drop of the lower B.C. yet higher velocity 250gr. bullet?

Finally, Savage recommended loads belwo- any comments as to real world fps and charge weights (conservative, etc.)?

IMR-4227
46 gr. 250 gr. Hornady .452" XTP 2,147 f.p.s. 2,550 f.p.e.
46 gr. 300 gr. Hornady .452" XTP 2,080 f.p.s. 2,880 f.p.e.
48 gr. 250 gr. Hornady .452" XTP 2,254 f.p.s. 2,820 f.p.e.
48 gr. 300 gr. Hornady .452" XTP 2,166 f.p.s. 3,120 f.p.e.

VIHTAVOURI N110
41 gr. 250 gr. Hornady .452" XTP 2,240 f.p.s. 2,785 f.p.e.
41 gr. 300 gr. Hornady .452" XTP 2,133 f.p.s. 3,030 f.p.e.
44.5 gr. (weighted) 250 gr. Hornady .452² XTP 2,368 f.p.s. 3,100 f.p.e.
(3.7cc Lee dipper) 250 gr. Hornady .452" XTP 2,353 f.p.s. 3,075 f.p.e.
44.5 gr. (weighted) 300 gr. Hornady .452" XTP 2,244 f.p.s. 3,360 f.p.e.
44.4 gr. (3.7 cc Lee dipper) 300 gr. Hornady .452" XTP 2,227 f.p.s. 3,300 f.p.e.

Don't own a Savage, only have a couple of Whites, so I will only address the scope question.
A straight 6X is plenty of glass for a muzzleloader. It will shoot plenty accurately out to the end of accurate killing range with your Savage. If you get much above that magnification and are faced with an offhand shot, you are going to see the crosshairs move. That is a bit disconcerting, during a high-anxiety situation.

I can't scope my muzzleloader here in Kansas for the muzzleloader only deer season but if I were to do so I'd put a 4X40 Nikon Buckmaster scope on it. You just don't need a whole lot of magnification on a smokepole. Use the money you save on something else, maybe something really cool for your lady!

quote:

Use the money you save on something else, maybe something really cool for your lady!

Have you been talkng to my girfriend!?

Search for "Savage Muzzleloader forum.
You should find Doug's savage board and R wakeman's Modern Muzzloading forum. There is a wealth of information out there. Prepare yourself, shooting the MLII can get very involved. I weigh all my charges. My best bullets have been the Barnes Expanders and 300 grain XTPs and my best powder is VV110. It is vital that you wait 10 minutes between shots if the ambient temperature is over 80 degrees.

I would not figure on ML accuracy/killing distance more than 100 – 125 yards. I have a Knight and shoot Pyrodex RS and have taken Deer from 5 yards to 125 yards. I can't shoot with a scope here in Kansas during early Deer season, but if I could I would use a 4 x 12 or a Red Dot. I use Hornady 240gr XTP with the Mag Sabot 100 grs on Pyrodex RS.

Sorry no Savage yet only Knight, Thompson Center Encore & Lyman Great Planes in 50 & 54cal

Swede,

I don't want to start a fight here and I don't advocated streaching long range shots for most people, but about 7 or 8 years ago, I shot a doe at 185 yds +/- with an old Marlin 54 cal and 100 grains of Pyrodex and a 240 gr Hornady HP. That gun shoots about 6" groups at 100 yds with that load, so I think that makes it a 150 yds gun and it has a Redfiled 4x on top.

My Encore 45 cal x 209 (4x Weaver) kills well to 150 yds too with 180 gr and 100 grs of 777.

My ML 10-II 50 cal (3-9x Nikon) will shoot 3" at a hundred and I think it is a good 200 yard gun on deer. In the hands of someone who shoots it alot and knows the gun, could easily make it into a 250 yd gun for deer, caribou, elk and moose with the right loads. This thing is like shooting a .35 Whelen with fat bullet!! 300 gr at 2200+ is like a 375 H&H lite....with tremendous potential for killing big critters!! If we had sabots that would allow high BC bullets in .35 or .375 to be shot, I could see 300 yards on a good day. The potential, I believe, is there, Sir.!!

CanadianLefty, my rifle has a liking for the N110 at 44.5 grains, and the 250 grain SST. This combo produced unbelieveable groups at the 100 yd mark. I think the velocity is right on the 2300 fps mark also. The rifle is heavy and recoil very light. I put a 1" Decelerator on mine, and it is very shootable. I bought the stainless laminated model and put an aftermarket trigger (pre accutrigger) on it. One thing you MUST do is let the barrel stay cool. Very little heat will cause the plastic sabot to loose integrity and cause large groups.

CL,

Try and stay away from 4227 if you can, it has caused many headaches for many shooters. It seems to misfire quite a bit in the ML10.

VV110 is one of the best Powders available in this MLer so, if you can, I'd go that route. The 250 SST is Flatter than the 300 SST at all pratical Distances (Say 200 yds and less).

I'm shooting 44 grains of IMR SR4759 under the 250 SST for 1" groups @ 100 and 2-3" at 200. sighted 3" high at 100 puts me at zero around 165-170 and 4-6" low at 200.

I've taken two good bucks at 155 yards each w/ this MLer. I absolutely love it.

Reloader

Oh yeah, you asked about optics. Any good Nikon, Burris, or Leupie works great on these rifles.

If you like the drop compensating reticles, I'd suggest the Burris FFII 3x9 w/ Ballistic Plex which, can be had for about 150 on Ebay. A very Fine scope.

The Nikon BMs 3x9x40 is a mighty fine scope as well.

I have a Simmons Aetec on mine and she's "Taken a Lickin' and Kept on Tickin'" So to speak. I've shot this rifle w/ heavy kicking loads in the 2500-2600 fps range & drug it through some thick terrain and that Aetec has never lost zero. The new "Master Series" is supposed to be even better.

Good Luck

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Lowrider 49:
Swede,

I don't want to start a fight here and I don't advocated streaching long range shots for most people, but about 7 or 8 years ago, I shot a doe at 185 yds +/- with an old Marlin 54 cal and 100 grains of Pyrodex and a 240 gr Hornady HP. That gun shoots about 6" groups at 100 yds with that load, so I think that makes it a 150 yds gun and it has a Redfiled 4x on top.

My Encore 45 cal x 209 (4x Weaver) kills well to 150 yds too with 180 gr and 100 grs of 777.

My ML 10-II 50 cal (3-9x Nikon) will shoot 3" at a hundred and I think it is a good 200 yard gun on deer. In the hands of someone who shoots it alot and knows the gun, could easily make it into a 250 yd gun for deer, caribou, elk and moose with the right loads. This thing is like shooting a .35 Whelen with fat bullet!! 300 gr at 2200+ is like a 375 H&H lite....with tremendous potential for killing big critters!! If we had sabots that would allow high BC bullets in .35 or .375 to be shot, I could see 300 yards on a good day. The potential, I believe, is there, Sir.!!

If you can shoot accurately and with a high degree of confidence of the kill at that distance then I would not try to stop you. My only concern is that people may be miss lead by the gun rags and think that a Muzzle Loader is as capable as a High Power rifle at the extended distances. Muzzle Loaders are a great weapon to use on Deer as long as the shooter has tried the various ranges and is capable of a good clean kill. I personally will stick to 125 yrds or less with any of my Muzzle Loaders.

I have found to many dead Deer that died a misirable death from some poor shot that either didnt follow up or didnt care.

A couple of years ago I came upon such a Deer it was shot in the throat and kicked untill it broke its legs and died.

Swede,

Agree with you as far as the traditional ML is concerned, especially one shooting traditional black powder ML loads.

My point is that the newer inline muzzleloaders with sulpher free black powder subs such as 777 and the Savage 10 ML-II shooting with smokeless powder IS a single shot HIGH POWER rifle capable of at least 200 yard shots and in some cases out to 300 yds if you know what you are doing.

On a different thread I recently said it was irresponsible for 95% of hunters to shoot (at) deer at 500 - 600 yards and I firmly believe that. I also agree with you on wounded deer....I hate to see them suffer and waste the meat too. Goose season brings out the "sky blasters" around here and we find dead geese in the strangest places after being hit by that damn steel shot and they die days or weeks after being shot. Anyway, as Dirty Harry said, a man's gotta know his limitations...and stay within them...I only shoot 30 yds with my bow...the arrow goes a lot farther, but that is all the distance I feel good about shooting. Hunt safe!!

Thanks so much for the info guys.

I am checking those other website forums out and appreciate your tips.

Unfortunately, the Gander mountain across the border in the U.S. no longer sells powder until they build a wall to house it behind.

Any mail-order places that you would consider? I will have it shipped into the U.S. and clear it through customs myself.

Cheers,
CL

BTW, if shooting only 250-285gr. bullets, is it worth it to also buy some VV-N120 with my VV-N110 to try out?

CL,

Powder Valley is the cheapest I've seen. You probably should order a few pounds to help out w/ that dang Haz-Mat fee. I'm pretty sure one $20 fee will cover up to 32 pounds.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Maybe this is a silly question, but since we are using pretty fast powders in most of the smokeless loads, has anyone cut or considered cutting their barrel to 20" or so to make it a little more handy?? It looks like the ram rod will work at somewhere around 20=/-". Even the duplex loads I've seen should burn pretty well in 20". Any thoughts?

Not sure Lowrider 49, I have heard of cutting them down to 22" to get that crappy EZ Load feature (Pre 03') out of the bbl. I actually thought about having mine cut to 22" because they reamed the ezload part off center. It shoots well so, I left it alone.

Even the 22" bbls lost some velocity, I don't think I'd go as low as 20". You can't add any back

Reloader

I cut mine to 20". I've lost 100-120 fps, but accuracy is very good and the rifle is a lot handier. Your results may vary.

Thanks gentlemen!

What got me thinking about shortening the barrel is a 20" Sako carbine I have in 375 H&H. It shoots great and handles like a 28 Ga O/U. I have a 35 Whelen with a 24" barrel and it is about as easy to handle as a fly rod in the bush. It doesn't seem that 4" would make that much difference, but it does or so a girl named Bonnie told me once.

Stoneybroke,

Was this a lathe job or a hacksaw job when you cut yours? Any idea how the crown effects the accuracy with sabots?

My smith cut the barrel and recrowned manually, since he was reluctant to remove the barrel. He said if I had accuracy problems, he would chuck it up in a lathe and recut. To date, the rifle shoots very well. However, with the shallow hand cut crown, I do have to be carefull to aligh the sabots square with bore. I have several of the short Mannlicher rifles, and while my Savage is handier then it was,it is still pretty heavy.

Stoney,

Ya got me thinking now. I have a tapered adjustable reamer that might be just the thing to relieve the first little bit of the cut off barrel to make it easier to seat the sabot/bullet.

I don't think you can lose much weight with just lopping 4" off the barrel. I've thought about that too and don't have a good answer for weight reduction.

I have a 45x209 barrel for my Encore and I'm thinking about cutting that barrel to see how it works out with 777. It is not too heavy or long, but if I screw it up, it is just the barrel and it is easy to change. I killed two deer with it last year and it worked great with 180 grain and two 50 gr pellets. Maybe I'll take a deep breath and stick it in the chop saw......worse I could have is a .45 cal MZ pistol.

I have 5 muzzleloaders with barels from 20" to 28". My most accurate front stuffer is an old Knight MK85, tree rifle with 20" tube, and 209 conversion kit. This rifle will shoot consistent 5 shot 1" groups with 80 grains of FFFg t7 behind the 250 grain Barnes expander. Wihr a 6x leupold the rifle weighs 6.5 lbs. It will get your atention!

Well, I did it. 20" and it shoots a 155 gr at 2050 fps with 2 triple 7 pellets. It handles like a Daisy Red Rider. I used a .22-250 AI reamer to relieve the muzzle and give a taper to the muzzle for easier loading. We'll see if it kills deer.

Tried out my new Savage this weekend with a chrono and 45 gr VV-N110 I got 2445 fps with Hornady 250 gr SST and black sabots. Unfortunately didn't have a scope and cann't see the sights good enough to find a decent group. Scope will be here in a few days and will revisit.

Hey Joe,

That's pretty good!! I only get an average of 2220 fps with 46.0 gr of N110, short black MMP and a 250 gr Hrnady XTP.

That load should knock their socks off!!! Let us know how accuracy works out. I'm getting right at 2" at 100 yds. with a 3-9 Nikon.

LowRider,

While shortening may not loose that much weight, it can sure affect the balance and handling quite a lot.

StoneyBroke,

You said, "I cut mine to 20". I've lost 100-120 fps, .......". You lost 100-120 fps compared to what original barrel length?

My barrel was 24" factory. I found the long barrel difficult to shoot accurately in the off-hand position. The factory rifles are muzzle heavy IMO. Stoney

Hog,

As I said the shortened Encore barrel DOES handle very well. If it ever stops raining here I'm going to shoot a couple dozen shots to see just how well I like it, but handling it empty sure is nice with the 20" barrel compared to the factory length. The performance I'm getting is certainly adequate for a shot taken out of a tree at a 100 yd deer. It is about the same weight and length as my 16" AR 15 and slung barrel down it carries at least as well.

I didn't chrono the original barrel before I cut it, but I would believe that Stoney's numbers are right. I may try some 200 gr XTP over 2 triple 7 pellets and see how they shoot. I still think I should be able to shoot smokeless out of that gun since it will take 3 777 pellets just fine. I tried 3 pellets with the 20" barrel and that is NOT appropriate or necessary.

Before our season opened this year I finally put a Ziess Conquest 3-9 on her and dialed her in with 45 gr of VV 110 and was getting 2465 fps consistently by chrono. Groups were around an inch, so I was most pleased. I looked around for my sabots to see if there was any distortion, but can't say for sure what I found on the ground were mine. So I don't know for sure. I am seating my sabots hard on the powder with a couple of bounce taps after hard loading for insurance.

I want to resight for 200 yards and was thinking of experimenting with up to 46 or 47 grains in small increments to see what she'll do. Need to lay out some sheets to catch my sabots or rake the field to see the sabot condition.

Before I ever fired the first shot, I lapped the barrel with JB bore shine then JB bore polish for several hundred strokes and I think that is a great break in.

My first year with the Savage 10ML. I haven't had time to play around with different loads but started and stuck with 42 gr. N110 and hornaday 250 gr. sst. 1 inch groups at 110 yards (100 meters) is very doable. Soon I hope to find time to play with other powders/bullets.