How difficult?

I have this traditional style ML that was hand built from a kit by a beloved relative who gave it to me before passing on. He finished the wood and blued the barrel and installed the fittings. It's never been fired. It has the brass furniture, percussion/nipple and the standard look of the TC Hawken rifles, in 50 cal. It's Italian made, Sile, Inc.

I tried to sell it, and zero offers of any kind and I have no family to hand it down to. So, I've been thinking why not deer hunt with it. I used to hunt with a TC Hawken, but it was decades ago. I just mention that so everyone will know I'm at least familiar with what's involved.

I'm thinking it would be nice to add an inexpensive simple low power scope and convert it over if practical from percussion to 209 primer.

The reason for the scope is obvious. The primer idea is because of all the botheration I experienced from deer stands with percussion cap malfunctions and misfires.

Any opinions?

warren custom outdoors sells a product called mag spark. it is a nipple that converts to primer. don't know much about them though.

Here are a few thoughts. Instead of mounting a scope, consider a tang-mounted peep sight. I don't know which peep to recommend, but someone on this forum will. I've been playing with a receiver mounted peep on a lever gun and the accuracy is stunningly better than with standard notched rear sights. On a traditional muzzleloader the tang would seem the obvious place to mount the peep.

As to the percussion caps, I've only had percussion caps fail to ignite a charge while hunting on one occasion. That was my fault. I got lazy and failed to fire 3 or 4 caps to dry the inside of the barrel prior to loading the gun. The other thing that helps with reliability is keeping the gun really clean. On my Thompson renegade hunter I would remove the barrel and the nipple and then submerge the lower end of the barrel in a bucket of hot soapy water and run the cleaning rod up and down the barrel while it was sitting in the hot water. That cleaned the barrel very effectively. Once removed from the hot water, the warm barrel dried rapidly enough not to rust. Then I would protect with TC bore butter.

I currently use an in line, but would hunt with total confidence with a traditional style percussion muzzleloader as long as I knew I had been diligent about going through all the steps of cleaning it and dry firing caps before loading.

Shack: You should experience zero misfires with proper, fresh caps and a good nipple. However, for more bang, replace the nipple with a musket nipple and go to the big winged musket caps. Easier to handle and ignition overkill. Available in most thread sizes from Blomquist Percussion.

Before posting this I wrote a long message responding to each idea mentioned, but decided in the interest of time and space to simply say instead that I did all those things back when I was heavily into BP, both rifle and handgun. So I know those are quite useful ideas, however, this particular gun is the only ML I now have left and my interest in it extends only as far as the emotional attachment because of where it came from, and the fact that I'm trying to get in a few deer hunts with it, rather than re-start an old hobby like I used to go at it.

Because of now poor vision a scope will be necessary. I did used to use the peep sight and front globe type target sight on a TC Hawken and they worked great at 100 yards. But I no longer see well enough for that. And it just happens I have a couple spare inexpensive scopes available.

I also used the musket caps on another gun and that is one possibility if there's a conversion nipple for this gun. I'll look further into that if 209s don't work.

However, I think shotgun primers are probably the best ignition system out there, if it fits my gun. So, I looked at the Warren e-site and found this - http://www.warrencustomoutdoor.com/mag-spark.html.

I'm going to follow up on that. Thanks.

Btw, they also have another interesting looking idea - LED flashlight bulbs.

I also looked over the newest inlines at Bass Pro. Very nice indeed, except for the price.

Don't drop that screw-off top in the snow.

I talked this over with my gunsmith yesterday and he showed me a Knight someone brought in that's going to be for sale. It already had a scope mounted. It was set up for percussion cap, but he said it could be converted over easy to shotgun primer.

So now I'm wondering which way to lean. Part of me likes that old gun. And part of me is tired of going out there to hunt regular gun season only to find that all the worthwhile bucks were wiped out by the early season muzzleloaders. I need to acquire the means to be out there myself opening day of ML season.

Shack,

I've had a T/C Renegade in .54 cal for years. If you aren't going to buy an inline, stick with the percussion cap. I've never had a problem with percussion caps. But, my trick was to always use a clean nipple and dribble a couple of grains of powder (I used Pirodex) under the nipple before I screwed it in. Don't go overboard, just a couple of granules. This maybe overdoing it, but I always got an instantaneous ignition with no hang time.

I've thought about the 209 route also, but you're probably better buying an 209/inline than converting what you have.

Shotgun primers come with their own set of problems such as a crud ring and they are no easier to put in place than a cap. In fact using a capper is a lot easier in many instances. I have never had a #11 cap fail to fire when the rifle was properly cleaned and the nipple clear and I have hunted in some extreme weather. Put a piece of saran wrap under the cap when you are hunting in the rain. After messing with all manner of ignitions I returned to the percussion cap seeing no real improvement with the others.

Capping a nipple is a 3 second (or faster) deal using a comerical Ted Cash capper, or leather capper - easy as can be.

Use real black powder and never have misfires. It's the phoney barrel rotters that give the grief, in more than one way.

quote:

Originally posted by Daryl S.:
Capping a nipple is a 3 second (or faster) deal using a comerical Ted Cash capper, or leather capper - easy as can be.

Use real black powder and never have misfires. It's the phoney barrel rotters that give the grief, in more than one way.

You must not be referring to Pyrodex because I never have any trouble with it and percussion caps. The newer stuff is not designed to be used with caps so we should not be surprised when it does not work.

I still use #11 caps and traditional m/l's, just because I built my first 45 from a kit in Jr High shop class in 1980, then bought a 54 cal on deep reduction when the inlines were coming on strong. I usually pinch the caps slightly to keep them on. I also have dribbled a pinch of FFF in the nipple after snapping several caps to dry it out, it works like a charm. I still use real black powder, mainly because a friend gave me 5 lbs a couple yrs back and I am going thru it.

On my 54 I put a peep sight and it improved the accuracy of the rifle tremendously, almost doubling the sight radius.

Eterry

quote:

Originally posted by Bruce R:
You must not be referring to Pyrodex because I never have any trouble with it and percussion caps. The newer stuff is not designed to be used with caps so we should not be surprised when it does not work.

People either have or perceive having problems with caps, pyrodex and T7 or they wouldn't be wanting to change guns to use primers.

I bought and tested Prodex when it first came out - found it lousy as a propellent and quickly went back to real black powder.
I bought and tested T-7 when it first came out, found it lacking as a descent propellent and quickly went back to real black powder.
I've never had a problem with ignition with either, using normal Rem, RWS or CCI #11 caps - but then, I don't have any cheap production rifles.

Guys just starting out have problems - they have problems with loading, fouling and they have problems with ignition.

In today's instant gratification world, the first place people look to solve a problem is with retail companies who are always willing to manufacture and sell you something you don't need, when simple learning about the sport is all that's necessary 7 part of the learning curve.

I've been at the range several times now, testing loads in a few of my ML rifles, single and DoubleBarreled, when a guy has shown up with a multi-barreled TC gun. He unloads all his loading stuff, t-7 or pyrodex, plastic wads and jacketed bullets for his .50 cal ML barrel, but never puts it on the action. He oo's and aw's at my targets, but never fires a shot from his ml barrel, but is quick to tell me he gets 2" groups at 100 yards with it. I tell him to put it on, I want to see it shoot and he puts it away & only shoots the .223 barrel, which runs around 1 1/2' to 2" at 100 meters. Wonder why he won't shoot the ML barrel? I think I know why. Oh yeah - his .223 scoped barrel cannot match my open sighted .69 at 100 meters off the bags and certainly not when fired offhand. I'm not impressed with inlines and 209 primers.

Martin (beleg2)

Well, that's why they make choclate and vanilla I guess, but I have two inlines and they shoot great with several different powders, including Triple 7 and Pyrodex. The convenience of the pellets is nice. 209 primers with these powders will cause a 'crud ring' just ahead of the charge, but it is easy enough to deal with, just clean it....same as others are saying as is the key to percussion cap guns functioning well, keep em clean--no difference IMO. In lines with 209's are more dependable, period. As far as accuracy, If you work up a load, they are plenty accurate, I have a TC 50 cal and I assure you it will match other muzzleloader for accuracy, any individual may be a better shot than another, but I can shoot 1" all day with it at 100 yards, and better if I do my part.

It sounds to me like you want a good shooting rig to help you take advantage of the early ML season Shack, and it doesn't sound like you are overwhelmingly attached to the one you have, so I would trade it for a modern in-line. I can tell you the TC's are popular for a reason, they are dependable, simple and shoot well. The new ones with the hand removeable speed breach are really easy to work with and clean.

I would get an inline that you like, and keep it simple with the propellant and scope like you intend to, and get to the range and then hunting!

I thought others here might find interesting what I decided on for this. I've been convinced to not spend anything trying to make this beautiful old kit gun a shooter. If I have to use a muzzleloader at all for the early season, I'm down now to two choices.

One is a modern in-line. The other is an interesting looking item I spotted at Dixie Gun Works. It's a Kodiak double rifle I think made by Petersoli.

I've already searched the threads on those here, but could use a little more info on them.

Is a scope impractical on those because of barrel regulation issues?

If I bought one, I would like to use T/C Maxi Balls, which is what I used in past times when I was in muzzleloading. When I fire the right barrel, is the projo in the left going to move off the powder?

Any other advice would be helpful. Because of time constraints I only got a brief look at it, and unfortunately am not for certain about the caliber. I think the muzzle looked either 50 or 54. The strap looked new and said "Kodiak" on it. It was $1K give or take.

My "ultimate" back up plan for early season is to bug the wildlife commission to allow handgun hunting - that's what I'd really like. But that's a whole other story I guess.

If you shoot a load that generates a lot of recoil, and is not REAL tight...you may very well find the second load "separating". Some of those Kodiak doubles were so poorly regulated that folks put a sight set on EACH barrel.
I've heard there were some decent ones produced, but quality control wasn't consistent. The ONLY way I would consider owning one would be to find someone wanting to sell a clean USED one. Discuss his experience with the particular rifle, AND take it to the range ( pre-purchase) to shoot it.