is there a problem taking your powder on the airlines? i have had 2 different answers and i know some AR members know the rules

Yes.......you can't legally. But there are ways around it.

I've heard of some guys getting by taking a factory box of magnum rifle ammo, pulling the bullets, and putting measured charges in each round.

I would have to use fired primers in the cases to keep anyone from having a disaster if they were to get ahold of these rounds.

Reloader

Shotgun shells are the best. Pellets and cotton balls. Other than that, buy the powder when you get there.

I would load some 45-70 rounds with black powder and cast bullets so if anyone managed to shoot them they would be fine and they would also be legal as that is a standard load for that cartridge. The airlines are fine with loaded cartridges just not loose powder in cans. It would be easy to pull the bullets for the powder.

Guys,

You need to check the last listed item under firearms and ammunition on this link. http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/airtravel/assistant/editorial_1188.shtm

Remember black powder is an explosive and not a highly flammable material. If you get caught trying to buck the rules by putting BP in cases and passing it off as normal powder, you face at least a US$10K fine and if they think you might have had malicious intent, in this post 9/11 society in which we live, you just might find yourself facing serious charges and serious jail time. - Even worse, the reason it's banned on commercial aircraft is that it's bloody dangerous.

Here's an example of what can happen when someone loads a banned item onto an aircraft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ValuJet_Flight_592

Actually, I think the fine would be quite a bit more than $10,000 USD. The fine would be a LOT more than it would cost to have your powder of choice shipped to your destination. Also factor in the time lost from work while you sit in jail.

I notice they say US$10K per violation...... and I wonder if they consider each loaded case to be a seperate violation? - That could add up to serious money!

To me, the most important thing is that it could easily cause an aircraft to end up in a big hole in the ground though.

Having done a lot more research on this it seems there are no end of different penalties you could face, depending on which Govt agency prosecutes etc. One I found talked of 5 years imprisonment and a US$250K fine.

Also be sure to check with the airline(s) you are flying with, they have other requirements. One wanted ammunition in the hard case with the firearm. Another wanted in my checked in luggage.
Each airport check-in will handle your firearm different. I had one who allowed my gun case to be unloaded with regular luggage while another paged me to pick it up at their counter....

If you look on the prohibited list you'll find "homemade" ammunition is also there.
Either use factory loads or put it in factory boxes to avoid problems. I went out on a financial limb for Nosler ammo before my last hunt instead of using my own loads. The Nosler shoots to the same point of impact anyway and I didn't want the additional hassle.

I thought about sneaking a BP sub to RSA last year but I figured it was not worth the risk.
I practiced with the powder they had locally and then had my safari company provide it when I arrived. This plan worked great and the travel was no stress.

I'd say that was a very sensible decision and I salute your responsible attitude. Apart from the issue of facing severe penalties for smuggling a class 1 explosive onto a commercial passenger aircraft if caught, there's also the issue of endangering the aircraft and passengers.

I've just had this debate over on 24HCF and a few of the guys there claim there are exemptions to allow it, but I was unable to find anything on the net and they either couldn't or wouldn't post anything either. I was however able to find about 20 links to aviation based sites that said it was not permitted. - So until someone can post links to prove exemptions, I can only assume it's an urban legend.

My guess is that if anyone tried to check in for a flight and told the agent they had class 1 explosive in any form in their checked baggage, they wouldn't get anywhere near an aircraft.

Dr. Duc,

I am interested in the "homemade" classification. All I could find was:

Weapons Small arms ammunition, in quantities not exceeding 5 kg (11 lbs.) per person, are allowed as checked-baggage only when securely boxed and intended for that person's own use. More than one passenger may not combine quantities into one package.

Firearms are allowed as checked-baggage with special requirements.

Gunpowder, mace, pepper spray, and tear gas are not allowed.

What were the circumstances? I don't want to get caught short on my next trip.

Thanks,

Lee

I'm certain you could make arrangements to buy some at your destination and just leave it there or dispose of before your return flight. Added to the cost of your hunt we're talking about peanuts.

Are you talking blackpowder or one of the substitutes? Blackpowder cannot fly in any way. Most of the substitutes can fly following under the same rules as smokeless. I fly with 300 Ultra cases measured exactly with my charge of 100 gr of 777. Check on the product labeling of your powder container and it may tell you what rules it comes under. Might say whether it comes under federal explosive law or not, or it may say it can ship by DOT, not an explosive.

BP and (I think) all it's derivitives, including pyrodex and also primers are all classified as explosives (usually class 1.1) and therefore may not travel on any commercial aircraft. - You can check this with the TSA for confirmation. Taking materials classified as explosive onto commercial aircraft is also contrary to the Air Navigation Order, Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act and other legislation, including the Patriots Act and a variety of Presidential decrees in the US.

Direct penalties for shipping those substances by commercial aircraft are very severe and include 5 years imprisonment and fines up to US$250K and then you may and probably will face further prosecution for endangering an aircraft.

Check the labelling on the container and if it's labelled as an explosive of any kind rather tham a flammable material then it's banned. If it's labelled as a flammable material then it may be permitted but probably only in (metallic) cases.

The bit about home made ammunition as I interpret it refers to home made BP ammunition.

quote:

Originally posted by Tundragriz:
Are you talking blackpowder or one of the substitutes?

I was referring to BP and all the various subs, musket caps and/or 209 primers.

Since I don't handload or reload and did not take a large magnum caliber rifle with matching "fake" centerfire ammo, I felt that loading centerfire rounds with BP or a sub. was not an option. I did take a back-up 30-06 in case I had issues harvesting animals with my muzzleloader, but for that situtation I also would have needed real centerfire ammo ready to go, too.
BTW, thankfully the '06 never left the gun case

I just found it much easier to practice here with powder available there and have my company provide not only the powder but also the primers, too.

Guys,
I e-mailed the TSA about this and I specifically asked them a set of questions which were:

Can black powder in any kind of packaging including metallic cartridge cases be carried on any commercial aircraft?

Can any black powder substitutes such as pyrodex etc in any kind of packaging including metallic cartridge cases be carried on any commercial aircraft?

Can any primers for black powder firearms such as pyrodex etc be carried on any commercial aircraft?

His reply was:

Dear Mr. Robinson:

Thank you for your electronic message dated October 6, 2008, asking a series of questions concerning the carriage of black powder and percussion caps in checked baggage. The answer to each of your questions is that Federal regulations prohibit these items in checked baggage aboard commercial aircraft.

Thank you for your inquiry, and I hope this information is helpful.
Sincerely yours,
Lee R. Kair
Assistant Administrator
Security Operations

Great Basin,

There is absolutely nothing in the US code that requires ammunition match a specific gun, other countries may vary. They can be different or you don't even need to have a gun. It is legal to check-in just ammunition alone.

To summarize the US code briefly:

NO flammable powders can be carried (checked-in luggage) except for certain exceptions.

Exceptions are specified for small arms ammunition with the following restrictions in summary form:

Individual rounds of small arms ammunition (in other words, not loose powder).
No greater than .50 caliber.
No more than 11 pounds (5kg).
Packaged in a container designed to store small arms ammunition.

Individual airlines can add any additional restrictions to these at their discretion.

If you abide by these regulations you should feel no guilt in transporting ammunition. You are simply following the letter and the intent of the safety laws. You're not trying to sneak around anything. Simply following the rules as they put forth. No foul!

Now, blackpowder is a federally classified explosive and there is no small arms exception for it. It cannot be flown legally commercially in any form. Loose primers/caps come under the same category but of course they fall under the small arms exception and of course you can fly with your primers in individual rounds.

I am a flintlocker, I don't have primers, and 777 is my powder of choice so it is the only one I can speak to directly. I suspect pyrodex is the same but I've never looked at any. When I fly with my Lyman GPH I carry the following printout for what its worth. I never had a need to present it and I've had TSA go over my gun with a fine tooth comb, hopefully you can read the lower part:



Worst case I ever had I think was in Albuqerque where they made me wash out my powder flask and primer powder dispenser. They said they detected blackpowder and I am sure they did because I also use the same ones for my renegade flinter with all 100% blackpowder.

Getting powder and primers at your destination may be acceptable in some cases but in others it is impractical without a lot of extra expense. A lot of people say for the price of the hunt just buy it their and leave it when you're done. Very easy to say and sometimes very inconvenient and expensive to do. You may need to arrive a couple days early, lost pay or vacation, extra rental car days, and add a couple nights hotel and food. That can of 777 powder could end up costing you close to $500, if no one is meeting you and the season starts Monday morning and no Sporting goods stores are open late Saturday or Sunday.

As hunters we are not always flying into metropolitan areas with chain brand stores open all weekend or late weeknights. I most often fly on the weekend and the small stores are pretty much always closed by the time I arrive late Saturday and aren't open at all on Sunday. On one New Mexico trip I contacted a sporting goods owner I found on the web and he was so kind to give me his home address so I could pick up a can of FFFF about 11pm on Saturday, nothing was available on Sunday and I was driving to camp on Sunday for the Monday opener.

If you have an outfitter you may be able to go that route but very often they make 1 trip a week out of the bush, bring 1 group out to the airport in the evening, pickup the new group, overnight at a hotel and head back out early in the morning. I just prefer to leave with everything that I need and that is why I switched to 777 from blackpowder.

I don't use primers but I would feel comfortable choosing a big enough cartridge that I could drop a single primer into each substitute round. You don't need to be a reloader. You can buy used cartridges and cheap bullet tips. Just get a reloader to run them thru a resizer die w/o decapping so the bullet tips will stick in place. If you use a caliber I reload for I will do it for you for nothing, just pay the postage. I also have thousands of spent primers in my press bowl if you need/want to insert used primers, I do.

Long enough post!

Steve, thanx for your dilligence and work. I tend to agree with you totally. As an old airplane mechanic I know too often people take the aerodynamics of flight too casually and anything endangering flight should be banned.

As for black powder, it is a Class A explosive and can only be transported by ground carrier in very limited quantities. The others are listed as "propellants" and I'm honestly not sure how that plays out. I do wish the TSA guy would have answered that specifically (I suppose he's just another Weeble and his answer is right "out of the book" instead of logic.

BTW, the "DOT" approved label means nothing to the airlines as the "FAA" controls and supercedes that. DOT is land transport for the purposes of commerce.

quote:

There is absolutely nothing in the US code that requires ammunition match a specific gun, other countries may vary.

Tundra,

The rule that the rifle and ammo caliber must match is from what I understand an importation rule enforced by the SAP in RSA. I am by no means an RSA expert, with only one trip under my belt. This is just what I have been told. The other rule that I have been told about is that you can't import two rifles of the same caliber, again I am only talking about RSA...and please correct me if I am wrong.



I have no idea what US code you are referring too, FAA, TSA? I have no knowledge of US law. I am sorry if you misunderstood my post...I probably should have clarified that I was just referring to travel to South Africa, but from what I have been told is you aren't allowed to take powder (real black or pyrodex) primers or caps on airlines flying solely in the states either.

quote:

Individual airlines can add any additional restrictions to these at their discretion.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this statement.



Delta rules: Gunpowder, i.e., Pyrodex, black powder, mace, pepper spray, and tear gas are not allowed.



Is 777 different in the eyes of individual carriers or the TSA?? I do not know...but since most counter workers I have had dealt with barely know what end of a gun a bullet comes out of...I would not let them decide on the outcome of my trip due to what brand of powder I'm trying to put on their plane. In my eyes there's just too much risk of missing flights due to delay or confiscation.



I have only done two trips that I have required powder and primers caps to be provided. Once in another state in the US and once in RSA. Neither arrangement to have these items provided cost me any money or inconvenience in any way. Truth be told, if an outfitter can't get me powder with months lead time...won't get my business.

BTW, Last year I was told over the phone by Hodgdon that they were hoping to have distributors in RSA within the next two years.. I was a bit doubtful then, and I still am now...we'll see?

George,

Probably a simple mistake on your part as I am sure you are very well aware of the fact that the USDOT is the "senior" regulating department for ALL matters relating to this issue and that the FAA is an agency "within" (as of 1967) the DOT charged with overseeing the policies set forth in the Code of Federal Regulations CFR, specifically Transportation 49 CFR 1544. FAA cannot supercede DOT anymore than an employee can supercede its manager.

Regarding the label, "Triple Seven is not an explosive regulated by Federal Explosive Law..." seems pretty clear.

http://www.dot.gov/DOTagencies.htm

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_07/49cfr1544_07.html

Great Basin,

I have hunted in Africa but not South Africa so I have no clue what the import rules are there and my post no way addresses RSA regs. The original poster doesn't say anything about the RSA, I specified US in my post. The Code I am referring to is our CFR Code of Federal Regulations. This is the original and final word on all these matters. If you are taken to task on these matters the CFR will be the reference. Our TSA Transportation Security Administration (originally part of DOT then transferred to Dept. of Homeland Security) is tasked with enforcement of these policies.

Regarding the Delta rules: You are kind of taking that statement out of context, because according to that interpretation no form of ammunition could ever be carried on Delta as it contains gunpowder. This is also a direct quote from the same Delta policy "Small arms ammunition, in quantities not exceeding 5 kg (11 lbs.) per person, are allowed as checked-baggage only when securely boxed and intended for that person's own use. More than one passenger may not combine quantities into one package." 777 is not blackpowder and is not classified as an explosive for US federal transporation purposes.

I have never hunted internationally with a muzzleloader but if I did in all liklehood I wouldn't carry my own powder because typically there is a support staff waiting for me at that end. An international hunt entails a whole different level of support compared to a DIY and even many guided trips domestically.

The Delta example is exactly what I'm talking about. The airline clerk and/or the on-duty TSA agent decides the rules and the context, even when they are clearly mistaken. I understand that the Delta rules are written both ways...and I'm not sure that's a mistake. From what I have been told it doesn't matter what documents or regulations you reference. They always have it their way and that may not be your way.


Anyhow, DIY trips are exactly that, but guided domestically or otherwise I guess I expect only one level of support from my outfitter. If they can't get me, the paying client, what I need...I'll book elsewhere.


I guess for me, an airline flight to go on a hunting trip is such a rare occurrence that I'm not willing to take any chances.



Sincerely, best of luck with your travels.

FWIW,

For many years, I used to work in various parts of the aviation industry (including as a co-ordinator of a very special security unit) and I still have a lot of contacts in that industry.

Over the past year or so, I have been doing a LOT of research on all aspects of the African hunting industy for a new project we're working on, and as part of that research, I've examined air travel in general, and carriage of dangerous goods in particular very closely indeed.

Since 9/11, the USA has developed the most complex set of rules for carriage of dangerous goods in the world. Not only do they have to comply with the Air Navigation Order, Carriage of Dangerous Goods act, (which is worldwide legislation) they also have a plethora of other bodies and Governmental decrees etc to comply with. - Remember all it takes for something to be banned from travel is for it to be on the banned list of just one organisation.

One also needs to consider the penalties for breaking these laws. Some of these penalties are (quite rightly)extremely severe and include, but are not restricted to 5 years jail time and a fine of up to US$250K........... one also needs to consider that if something is banned, it's banned for a bloody good reason and by taking it onto an aircraft, you might be endangering it and everyone aboard it. (Remember Value Jet and the Everglades)

As part of my research, I consulted various individuals and organisations all over the world, including the (worldwide) risk assessor and security manager of one of the largest airlines in the world and also (amongst others) the TSA. The first thing all of these people do is ask the UN rating on the label of the container for whatever material we're talking about. (incidentally, the UN rate BP as high explosive, not as low explosive)

So the bottom line is that one needs to check the label on the container and if it's rated as flammable, it can probably travel if it's in metallic cases such as cartridge cases and if it's packed correctly.

If the label says it's an explosive of any kind, it cannot travel under any circumstances. - Note that primers and/or percussion caps alone cannot travel no matter how they're packed.


I'd also advise that anyone contemplating taking a material they're not entirely sure about, contact the airline in writing well before their travel date and inform them they will be travelling with a material of whatever classification/rating in whatever containing method etc and ask them to supply written confirmation that it is permitted to travel.

The fact that something might not be easily available at a certain destination doesn't make any difference to the regulations, the airlines or the other passengers on the aircraft. If it's not available, it's the hunters problem to find a safe and legal solution to that.

In closing, I'd urge everyone not to post comments such as 'well I've done this or that' etc, because forums such as this are monitored from time to time by a wide variety of bodies and by posting comments like that, they just might be putting themselves on a list that ensures that every time they travel for the next 25 years, they'll get a full body and cavity search...........

As someone said, the requirement that ammo cannot be imported without a matching calibre rifle and that no more than one firearm of the same calibre per passenger is only a SA requirement, it's not an airline requirement.

777 is a pyrotechnic mixture and as such cannot be transported on a passenger flight. While not "flammable" the IATA regulations are quite clear when it comes to pyrotechnic material. The information on the cover is not the information used to determine the hazard properties. Consult the MSDS.

I usually purchase 777 and primers at the destination. With the guide purchasing the material on my behalf.

TNJ,

In the US, who, when, or how are these IATA regulations enforced and what can be used as a reference to understand them.

For domestic “US” travel there are 3 levels of compliance. Again this only applies to US domestic.

1. Code of Federal Regulations, enforced by TSA and carriers, within this code the regulations for small arms and ammunition has not changed or gotten any more complicated in many years. Pre and post 9-11 federal regulations have remained unchanged for at least a minimum of 10 years. The basics are the same today as they were even 15 years ago. If you don’t agree please research and post your findings. Things like lighters, fluids, matches, aerosols, etc. have changed and will surely continue to do so. Firearms rules have not changed in recent history.

2. Carrier Policies, carriers can add to the CFR restrictions, carriers must enforce these additions, TSA is not authorized. To the best of my knowledge to date ALL MAJOR US carriers have not added anything to the code for firearms and ammunition nor have they ever. By major I mean American, Continental, Northwest, Delta, US Airways, and United. I am aware of smaller US carriers that have imposed extra restrictions. If anyone is aware of any restrictions beyond the code by MAJOR carriers please post them here. Everyone needs to check with your carrier as close to departure as possible for any possible changes. Carry a copy of their policy with you, they will read it, not accept it as truth, but it will force them to call up their own secret version behind the counter, and then after supervision intervention will proclaim the policy must have recently changed because it was always such and such.

3. Local ordinances, this is the toughest, localities set their own restrictions for transporting firearms. This would include things involved with getting your gun to or from the airport and physically walking to or from the counter with the guncase in hand. Case in point, At JFK I was challenged by the Port Authority for carrying a loaded weapon in the airport because at check-in they noticed my ammo was in my gun case. TSA said it was OK, American airlines said it was OK, but local ordinance states that ammunition in the same case as a weapon is classified as a loaded weapon. How ya going to know this, I’m from Pa. I had to move the ammo to another piece of luggage because of Port Authority rules.

That is the extent of the regulations. No other names or organizations are important and only serve to muddy the issue. There are no world or international cops in our airports. TSA and the carrier both enforce the Federal Code, carriers enforce their own restrictions (TSA not authorized), and only local authorities enforce the local ordinances. A lot of people try to turn this into a fuzzy thing where you may think you need to be an expert to know how it works. It is just not so for US domestic.

A problem that very commonly occurs is that a counter person working from hearsay will impose something like, ammo cannot be in the case with the gun, or the ammo is not in a manufacturers box, or the bolt is not removed, or they want to take your key to some invisible area where you can't watch the inspection. The hunter becomes intimidated and complies. This sets precedence for every future hunter. Politely, respectfully, and courteously request to talk to a superior. Every one of the above has happened to me and in every case it was resolved in my favor. Sometimes it is a TSA agent squaring away a ticket person on a federal matter, sometimes it was a carrier supervisor squaring away a ticket person on their perceived interpretation of the airline policy, once it was a customs supervisor squaring away a customs inspector. Don't allow them to make it fuzzy for everyone else that follows.

Air travel outside the US is literally a whole world different and you can expect absolutely anything from counting bullets to gun disassembly. I have had laughable problems in Mongolia and Korea. Laughable because it was on the return trip and much less important to me at that point, but it was funny then and now thinking about it. Argentina requires that a gun case display a document identifying it as containing a gun with model, caliber, and serial number listed. The US strictly prohibits any markings on the case that indicate there is a gun inside. So when you leave Argentina on an American carrier your gun is guaranteed illegally marked when it arrives in the US. I wondered what would happen on the US side, nothing did but I immediately ripped off the label before US customs and its transfer to another US flight.

Bottomline is you need to comply with the letter of the law but know what the law is so you don’t get bulldozed and make it worse for those that follow.

I wanted to post this separately because I think it is important to us, if it applies, please respond to Goex:

http://www.goexpowder.com/

FWIW, All commercial airlines whether domestic or international are bound by the internationally agreed Air Navigation Order, Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act. There are also other legislation (mostly) for individual countries and the US probably has the highest number and most confusing pile of those. The US requirements include legislation from the DOT, Research and Special Programs Administration, Patriot Act, Safe Explosives Act, Aviation and Transportation Security Act, TSA security regulations, plus various executive orders.

However the Air Navigation Order, Carriage of Dangerous Goods Act is the one that applies to all commercial airlines worldwide. The reason for this is to ensure that an aircraft isn't put in a position where it's legally carrying a cargo that's legal at the departing country but illegal at the arriving country. For the purposes of flammable and explosive items this legislation uses the UN ratings. - So to change a classification for any material the UN would have to be convinced to reclassify what they currently consider to be a Class 1.1 Explosive to a flammable material. I'd have thought that would be a very difficult, long winded, expensive and I'd guess, almost certainly impossible excercise. Esp, since 9/11.

At the end of the day, the UN have already tested and decided what is and isn't safe to be transported on a commercial passenger aircraft and this has got nothing to do with what's convenient or inconvenient for individual hunters.

Why not just get a smokeless barrel? Use standard casings to fly your powder and get the caps when you get there. Caps can even be ordered up and sent in advance to just about anywhere in the USA. If on an international hunt, have the outfitter or PH get them for you. Done deal. Everything legal. I pack a 300 WSM along on major hunts just in case anyway.

Steve is correct. IATA regulations are followed for all international and domestic airlines, whether or not the material is transported domestically or internationally. This also applies to Fed EX.

While there are no federal rules that mandate IATA, to offer a hazardous material by air one needs to follow US DOT regulations. The FAA enforces these regulations. Most of the DOT regulations are very similar to IATA.

The US DOT and IATA regulations both forbid the offering or the transport of any pyrophoric materials on passenger aircraft. Most all the black powder substitutes including the Goex substitute are considered to be a pyrophoric (think fireworks) and as such cannot legally be transported by commercial air carrier. There may be an exemption for charter aircraft.

Loading pyrophoric into rifle cartridges makes the cartridge a 4.2 Spontaneously Combustible, which is passenger aircraft forbidden. Most Small arms ammunition is classified as 1.4 S but using a packaging exemption is classified as ORM-D, which can be transported by air. 50 Caliber does not fall under this exemption and that is one reason why there have been problems with transporting by air.


As for the NYC problem with ammo in with the rifle, I had that same problem in July even though I had the TSA regulations. When I returned I contacted the desk sergeant for the Port Authority and he began to tell me I was wrong, when his boss corrected him and told him that ammo can be transported in the same case as the weapon. Now travel between airports or outside of the airport is another matter as you are subject to the very strict NYC gun laws. The Port Authority was to advise all officers in the airports.

cool, but all for internet lawyers to deal with. What I can tell you is I took my 550 Gibbs Magnum thru a TSA inspection in Boise and they could have cared less what caliber it was in early December of 2008. Ditto in Zim when I landed and when I took off 9 days later. Ditto when I landed at Dulles and went thru customs there. I think the issue is overblown.

Rich
Buff Killer

Rich,

Taking the firearm as checked baggage (whether BP or smokeless powered) isn't the issue at all. That's perfectly safe and legal. What isn't safe or legal is taking the black powder, it's derivitives or detenators onto a commercial passenger aircraft.......... and if you think that's overblown, you need to consider that by doing so, you risk considerable jail time, huge fines and most important of all the lives of everyone on board the aircraft you're travelling on and possibly the lives of people on the ground if bits of the plane you're travelling on and your actions have caused to fail, falls on top of 'em.

I'd personally not call that overblown

OK...Don't take Black Powder or substitutes on a plane...BUT can I send it ahead of time via UPS, along with a pack of primers?

Uhhh . . . actually, no.

Actual black powder cannot ship via common carrier. As to BP substitutes and primers, UPS requires a hazmat permit to ship "hazardous materials". As in individual, you can't (easily) get a hazmat shipping permit. However, you could order the powder and primers from a commercial supplier (who has a hazmat permit) and have them shipped directly to your destination.

The discussion above from several months ago took a lot of sidebars and never really addressed the central issue of what "ammunition" is legal to carry as personal baggage via air carrier. It would be legal to transport fixed (loaded) cartridges which contained (most) black powder substitutes and were primed with 209 shotshell primers. Whether, upon arrival at your destination, you fired that ammunition in a Damascus-steel antique 12 gauge or disassembled it and fired it in a T-C Omega is irrelavant to the air carrier, the Department of Transportation, or the Hudspeth County, Texas Precinct 2 Constable's office. It may or may not be relavent to the Customs authorities of one or another country in which your plane might disembark.

Despite claims to the contrary, I am not certain that loaded ammunition charged with black powder is actually prohibited on U.S. airlines. The regulations are not specific, but since every propellent (whether H-414, gasoline, or Ohio Blue Tip matches) is banned in loose or bulk form, and the fixed sporting ammunition exception is silent as to the type of propellent inside the cartridges, it is arguable that cartridges charged with BP are no different and no less legal than cartridges charged with smokeless powder.

Despite the terse email from the FAA employee cited in Shikari's post in which the employee simply takes the "nothing is acceptable" approach, it is difficult to see a hunter carrying his Winchester 1876 .45-75 and its matching black powder ammunition in his checked baggage on a flight from Albuquerque to Denver being successfully prosecuted for introducing prohibited cargo into an airliner.

Parenthetically, it is the ease with which black powder is ignited and that it needs less confinement to reach explosive pressures that get it classified as an "explosive". As even neophyte shooters know, black powder has a very limited explosive potential (you can't put enough of it in a strong gun barrel to burst it), whereas "non-explosive" smokeless powder can generate much more explosive action if well-confined. Smokeless powder is not as easily ignited and must be more tightly confined to exhibit its explosive characteristics, but ask any terrorist which is the preferred pipe bomb fuel and the answer will always be Red Dot over FFg.

Oh yes, another "by the way":

While black powder may NOT be shipped by common carrier (UPS, FEDEX, etc.), cartridges loaded with black powder are legally shipped every day via these carriers.

I believe that this fact supports my contention that cartridges loaded with black powder are acceptable for airline transport under the "sporting ammunition" exception.

It will much less hassle to buy when you get there.

quote:

Originally posted by RR4hunt:
It will much less hassle to buy when you get there.

Very true, provided it is available when you get there. There are many hunting destinations that black powder/substitute and shotgun primers or percussion caps are unheard of.

Stonecreek is correct on availability in many parts of the country, that along with the fact that I'd like to KNOW I will have ammo when I get to my hunt and not rely on the fact that I might be able to get it.

I fly to New Mexico in November for a Muzzleloader Elk hunt and am still debating about what to do. As of now I am going to have Cabelas ship the powder and pick up some primers somewhere along the way. I'd have Cabelas ship the primers too, but I really don't think I'll need 1000 primers for this hunt.