Alot of people seem to think that all rifles are centerfire and that a muzzleloading firearm can not be a rifle.

I find this ignorance repulsive on gun boards.

I usually have to say "Kentucky Longrifle" to get my point across that there are indeed muzzle loading RIFLES!

Not sure what you are referring to but your statement is a little off as you say a "muzzleloading firearm can not be a rifle". Actually you should have said a most muzzleloading rifles can not be firearms. The only muzzleloading rifles that are firearms are those that can take a centerfire barrel either cartridge or shotgun. By definition in the Federal Firearm control information that is the way muzzleloaders are termed as non-firearms. I do understand that the general public has little knowledge as to what a muzzleloader is especially today with the major technological changes and possibly that is what you were referring to.

A muzzleloader CANNOT be a "rifle" because it does not use a metallic cartridge.

A muzzleloader is properly classified as an "antique firearm".

A muzzleloader is a "firearm" for federal purposes.

Not familiar with the term "non-firearm" in the Federal Code, where might it exist?

A lot of people think 'alot' is a real word.

I find such ignorance repulsive everywhere.

Seriously though, while there are muzzleloaders with rifled barrels, the term 'rifle' has come to be more closely associated with metallic cartridge rifles since they are the standard today (yes, I know there were blackpowder rifles that used paper 'cartridges').

Likewise, 'pistol' refers to a handgun where the cartridge is chambered in the barrel. However, many refer(red) to revolvers as pistols; the old gunfighters were also called 'pistoleros'.

It's hardly the kind of thing to get exorcised about.

George

I think this is one way of looking at it. A gun that has a rifled barrel, rifle sights or scope, bolt action, fires a single solid projectile, cartridge uses a center positioned primer. Is it a rifle?

No... because I was thinking of a Browning A-Bolt shotgun. If this was any pump action, semi, or single shot slug gun we would never ever consider calling it a rifle. Why? because it does not use a metallic cartridge, it will always be called a shotgun. Same logic applies to a muzzleloader not being called a rifle.

Here are some official definitions from the Code of Federal Regulations.

Ammunition. Ammunition or cartridge
cases, primers, bullets, or propellent
powder designed for use in any
firearm other than an antique firearm.
The term shall not include (a) any
shotgun shot or pellet not designed for
use as the single, complete projectile
load for one shotgun hull or casing, nor
(b) any unloaded, non-metallic shotgun
hull or casing not having a primer.

Antique firearm. (a) Any firearm (including
any firearm with a matchlock,
flintlock, percussion cap, or similar
type of ignition system) manufactured
in or before 1898; and (b) any replica of
any firearm described in paragraph (a)
of this definition if such replica (1) is
not designed or redesigned for using
rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed
ammunition, or (2) uses rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition
which is no longer manufactured in the
United States and which is not readily
available in the ordinary channels of
commercial trade.

Firearm. Any weapon, including a
starter gun, which will or is designed
to or may readily be converted to expel
a projectile by the action of an explosive;
the frame or receiver of any such
weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm
silencer; or any destructive device; but
the term shall not include an antique
firearm. In the case of a licensed collector,
the term shall mean only curios
and relics.

Pistol. A weapon originally designed,
made, and intended to fire a projectile
(bullet) from one or more barrels when
held in one hand, and having (a) a
chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or
permanently aligned with, the bore(s);
and (b) a short stock designed to be
gripped by one hand and at an angle to
and extending below the line of the
bore(s).

Revolver. A projectile weapon, of the
pistol type, having a breechloading
chambered cylinder so arranged that
the cocking of the hammer or movement
of the trigger rotates it and
brings the next cartridge in line with
the barrel for firing.

Rifle. A weapon designed or redesigned,
made or remade, and intended
to be fired from the shoulder, and designed
or redesigned and made or remade
to use the energy of the explosive
in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire
only a single projectile through a rifled
bore for each single pull of the trigger.

I was just reading my post with the definitions and I have to declare that I was wrong in my earlier post saying that a muzzleloader was a firearm and MLKeith's post is correct saying it is a non-firearm, although I don't "think" that is an official term it's got me wondering now.

In the firearm defininition it states "but
the term shall not include an antique
firearm." So an antique firearm is not really a firearm. Apology for my mistake in the earlier post.

Not going to argue the "non-firearm" word but was only trying to make the difference from firearm that requires federal forms and "non-firearm" that does not. On another note there is a term that you might get an interest in. My .410 shotgun pistol is registered in Federal Firearms Form 1 as an "Anyother" since it does not meet the requirements of a pistol, rifle, shotgun, or a sawed off version of any of these since it was never sawed off but made that way in the beginning.

all that said,i'd still just as soon have my trusty ml in my hands when that big buck comes along.

Where did THAT come from? Geez guys, you can create all the definitions you want and apply them as you'd like but it seems that some of you need to look up the term in it's ORIGINAL definition. A "rifle" was originally used by the French to describe the interior lining of the barrel. The very first rifles were muzzleloaders, but any of you who've been in the Army know that even artillary is called "RIFLE" in some cases. Most people don't think of the lowly .22 without the word "rifle" behind it yet a .30-06 seldom needs the modifier. There are so many more things we should be excited about rather than the uneducated who need to be enlightened. LOL

quote:

Originally posted by george roof:
Where did THAT come from? Geez guys, you can create all the definitions you want and apply them as you'd like but it seems that some of you need to look up the term in it's ORIGINAL definition. A "rifle" was originally used by the French to describe the interior lining of the barrel. The very first rifles were muzzleloaders, but any of you who've been in the Army know that even artillary is called "RIFLE" in some cases. Most people don't think of the lowly .22 without the word "rifle" behind it yet a .30-06 seldom needs the modifier. There are so many more things we should be excited about rather than the uneducated who need to be enlightened. LOL

It's not about definitions any of us created.
But calling any discussion of those definitions "uneducated" is both foolish and stupid.

The discussion has focused on LEGAL definitions, not encyclopedia definitions.

And here in the US ONLY the legal definitions matter.

An antique firearm is by LEGAL definition NOT a firearm but an "anique"

The presence or absence of spiral grooves inside the barrel are legally irrelevant
to hunting rules or purchasing rules in most jurisdictions.

That being said SOME jurisdictions treat muzzleloaders as "firearms" but the federal government does not.

"Rifle" in most states hunting regulations
refers to modern cartridge firearms.

Common vernacular tends to follow legal definition to avoid confusion.

I will not as a matter of principle use the term "assault rifle" to refer to anything other than a military "select fire" or "Full auto"
longarm.



AD

Allan, if you can find the stirrups on that damned high horse you just got up on, dismount and join the world. Look at the original posting. It has never "focused" on any "LEGAL" discussion and there was nothing in there concerning the legal mumbo jumbo you just tried to interject into this conversation. The man was talking about IGNORANCE which can be defined as the lack of knowlege or "uneducated". Anyone can be ignorant but foolish and stupid should hurt. I happen to hunt in more than a few states and MOST of them define a legal muzzleloader as a RIFLED "Primitive" FIREARM so as to distinguish it from a MUSKET which has NO RIFLINGS and are considered illegal for hunting purposes in those states. In three of those states, they also specifically identify muzzleloading SHOTGUNS that may be used for small and upland game. I don't ever recall a single one of those state regulations referring to the word "antique" in any of their explanations.

Hmmmm,

I have a mossberg "gun", it is a model 500, the barrel lining has all kinds of grooves and notches that imparts spin to the single lead bullet. Sounds like the definition of a rifle as given by those above and wikipedia so it has to be a rifle,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle
but absolutely everything I find about it in the gun world refers to it as a shotgun, never ever a rifle. Why?

George Roof,
"Where did THAT come from? Geez guys, you can create..." I didn't create it, I copied it from the Code of Federal Regulations. As sportsman it is wise to understand the federal definitions as they apply to us, it has a direct impact on us personally everytime we buy or ship a gun. This is precisely why a muzzleloader can be purchased and shipped very differently from the regulations that apply to other types of firearms, namely rifles. There is a common everyday distinction between the two that directly affects us. "Rifled" does not have to be a rifle, it describes a type of barrel.

To the original poster
"Alot of people seem to think that all rifles are centerfire and that a muzzleloading firearm can not be a rifle." - reason is because a rifle uses a metallic cartridge like it says in the code, be it for a 22 or an artillery piece.

"...to use the energy of the explosive
in a fixed metallic cartridge to fire
only a single projectile through a rifled
bore for each single pull of the trigger..."

Maybe if we ask soldiers killed in battle before smokeless propelled gunpowder came along,by these old guns they would be able to help out on just how effective these old guns REALLY WERE!

Jeff, if you did that, you'd need to go back to the Neanderthals and ask them about the rocks. The ability to "kill" doesn't require even a "gun". The ability to do it consistently requires a "rifled barrel firearm".

Tundragriz, guess that went right over your head. I was talking about SEMANTICS of the definitions, now what the bean counters at the Fed do. They're too busy finding reasons to outlaw lead ammunition and requiring microstamping on bullet cases to understand the English language.

"Muzzleloading rifle" is the definition for a muzzleloading rifle. "Centerfire rifle" is the definition of a centerfire rifle. "rimfire rifle"....need I go on?

I carried a Walker Colt full-time from age 18 to 21, LEGALLY, because of the 'Antique Firearm' definition above. HOWEVER, a Ruger Old Army IS NOT an Antique Firearm, or a replica of one. It is Legally the same as a .480 Redhawk. BE CAREFUL. I still carry a C&B in the truck when running Coast-to-coast because it's not Federally defined as a Firearm, and it's HIGHLY Illegal to carry ANY firearm in ANY truck in ANY state. Truckers not Deserving the Right to Self-Defense, you know. But I shoot just as fast and straight with a Cap-and-ball as I do with my Bisley, and this technicality will more than likely keep me out of prison if I'm caught. If not, Oh Well. I will NOT be disarmed. It ain't SAFE anymore.
KY Jim

Missouri changed the classification two years ago after convicted fellons were hunting with muzzle loaders to circumvent not being able to hunt with centerfire.

Muzzle loaders regardless of what they are commonly classified as, in Missouri they are now in all leagality a "RIFLE"

.

quote:

Originally posted by Sixgun Symphony:
Alot of people seem to think that all rifles are centerfire and that a muzzleloading firearm can not be a rifle.

I find this ignorance repulsive on gun boards.

I usually have to say "Kentucky Longrifle" to get my point across that there are indeed muzzle loading RIFLES!

A lot of people don't know what they are talking about. A lot of people call all muzzleloaders "Musket Loaders" & ask "does it have grooves and twists in the barrel?". A lot of people who shoot muzzleloading rifles and smoothbores cast "Leads" for their "Black Powder".
A lot of people are ignorant of proper nomenclature. A lot of people are just ignorant.

All you can do is to forgive, and try to teach them the proper words to use so they don't sound so stupid.

All muzzleloaders that have rifled barrels, single or double barreled are "Rifles" - always have been. All muzzleloaders with smooth bores, but both rear and front sights are called "Smooth Rifles".
All muzzleloaders that are Military, originally built as a "Musket"ie: smoothbore, but were later rifled when Minnie bullets came into use in the military, are "Rifled Muskets". All Military muzzleloading guns which were originally rifled were called "Rifles" just as they civilian couterparts are - back then, and today.

Because the US Government choses to class or call muzzleloading guns as non-guns, or non-firearms does not change what the gun actually is - it is a rifle or a smoothbore, or a rifled musket, or a musket, or a fowler, or a ball and shot gun, or a shotgun.
They may clasify it for their own use as they seemingly have done, but a rifle is a rifle. It's pretty simple, really.

quote:

Originally posted by Daryl S.:

quote:

Originally posted by Sixgun Symphony:
Alot of people seem to think that all rifles are centerfire and that a muzzleloading firearm can not be a rifle.

I find this ignorance repulsive on gun boards.

I usually have to say "Kentucky Longrifle" to get my point across that there are indeed muzzle loading RIFLES!

A lot of people don't know what they are talking about. A lot of people call all muzzleloaders "Musket Loaders" & ask "does it have grooves and twists in the barrel?". A lot of people who shoot muzzleloading rifles and smoothbores cast "Leads" for their "Black Powder".
A lot of people are ignorant of proper nomenclature. A lot of people are just ignorant.

All you can do is to forgive, and try to teach them the proper words to use so they don't sound so stupid.

All muzzleloaders that have rifled barrels, single or double barreled are "Rifles" - always have been. All muzzleloaders with smooth bores, but both rear and front sights are called "Smooth Rifles".
All muzzleloaders that are Military, originally built as a "Musket"ie: smoothbore, but were later rifled when Minnie bullets came into use in the military, are "Rifled Muskets". All Military muzzleloading guns which were originally rifled were called "Rifles" just as they civilian couterparts are - back then, and today.

Because the US Government choses to class or call muzzleloading guns as non-guns, or non-firearms does not change what the gun actually is - it is a rifle or a smoothbore, or a rifled musket, or a musket, or a fowler, or a ball and shot gun, or a shotgun.
They may clasify it for their own use as they seemingly have done, but a rifle is a rifle. It's pretty simple, really.

Thank you sir, you hit the nail on the head. odis

arguing semantics is a pleasant pastime, but not if you end up doing it in Federal Court. The BATFE has redefined black powder firearms as firearms since shortly after our esteemed g gordon liddy starting bragging on national radio about packing a short barreled percussion revolver around with him. Read the updates and the time they were added to the code.

Rich

FREEKIN UNREAL!!!!!!! not even close to entertaining