Hi, just getting around to buying a ML , have used my buddie's Rem. 700 ML. not impressed!. Was thinking pretty definate, of buying a Savage ML 10 ,untill i read report's of it blowing the breach plug using smokeless powder.I am conserdering buying a CVA Kodiak, I would appreciate a honest opinion as to what you , as ML hunter's would purchase as your next ML. , other than custom ML.'s. Thank You: Rick.

I have two Whites, a Super 91 Synthetic I bought used, and a Model 97 Whitetail Ultra Mag, with a laminated stock. They will both shoot to 1-1/2" when I do my part, and although the actions are entirely different, they are absolutely the easiest things to clean I have ever owned. All stainless, they are a pleasure. Check them out at http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com

Encore or Omega form T/C. I have never regretted getting my Encore.

The Savage is fine if you read and follow the manufacturers instructions. Savage is a fine big American company that would not make a dangerous firearm. CVA on the other hand is a marketing company that does not make anything. The rifles are coming out of Spanish manufacturers that seem to be in question as to how they make and proof their barrels. T/C is American, NEF is American. If you want to get a rifle that is backed by a big American company and will help you if you have problems then go with the obvious. White rifles are fine also but difficult to find and the company is very small and seems to be in question as to how long it will survive.

I have hunted with both the Encore and the Omega. Hands down I would go with the bare bones Omega. Easy to clean and accurate.

Knight, White, T/C, Savage...there's lots of good guns around. Check out everything you can get your hands on, it's kind of a Ford vs. Chevy deal. One of them will jump out at you, or you can just buy everything, like I'm trying to do.

Also, be sure to check the regs. of the states or provinces you plan on hunting before you buy. Good luck.

I have a Knight 85 Stainless Steel Predator and an Encore I like the Encore because of the way it holds the 209 primers and the way the hammer works. This being said both the Knight and the Encore are equally accurate.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

Also highly recommend the Whites - they are becoming scarce items though. Doc still has some nice ones priced right.

And speaking of priced right, look down this page at the Knights http://members.aol.com/randymagic/savage0.htm

Like fairchase said, it is sort of like Ford vs Chevy (although I own a Dodge). I have a CVA Kodiak and really like it. It is easy to use, easy to clean and plenty waterproof for my purposes, which isn't much. I would buy one again.

If I was to totally start over with rifles and ML, I would probably have an Encore frame and a few barrels, but not just for the ML.

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Was thinking pretty definate, of buying a Savage ML 10 ,untill i read report's of it blowing the breach plug using smokeless powder.

If you'll read into that false info, you'll find out that there's only one that blew and the whole incident seemed fishy.

CVAs blow up frequently, at least I've seen several reports and pictures of the barrels split open in the past few years due to the very cheap steel they use. Even then, folks buy them by the truck load just because they're cheap.

The Savage is the strongest Factory production Mler on the market.

I wouldn't let false stories steer you away from a Savage. If you know someone who has one, ask them if you could shoot it. You will not be disappointed.

If you want a true Magnum Mler that is capable of MOA and better grouping, the Savage is a good choice.

Good Luck

Reloader

I pondered this for a while and went with a TC omega this past fall. Havent used it too much yet, but very happy with it.
Other one considered was CVA Kodiak Pro, but TC is American made and better local reputation.

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The Savage is the strongest Factory production Mler on the market.

Wondering how this was determined, Reloader... Not disputing it, just wondering. Since true black is an explosion, and peak pressures are immediate, it seems to me that a rifle capable of shooting a heavy conical with a magnum load of black would be stronger than a rifle designed to shoot smokeless, since the peak pressure comes later in the burn.

FWIW, Doc White has shot 33 grains of AA5744 in his Model 97. He talks about it on hs website...

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FWIW, Doc White has shot 33 grains of AA5744 in his Model 97. He talks about it on hs website...

I've shot 48 grns of 5744 in my Savage and could've went higher but, accuracy suffers.

I didn't mean to infer that other MLers weren't strong at all, just that the Savage was the strongest production MLer.

Savage has tested their barrels to 100,000 PSI and could've kept on going. That's a very high amount of pressure.

There has been alot of guys flub up and double charge their Savages and they fired anyway w/ out any damage well, I guess a sore shoulder could be considered damage .

I've heard RUMOR that the Savage will w/stand a triple charge w/ three sabots seated on top. Like I said this was rumor so, who knows but, I don't doubt it.

Doubless, it pretty much comes down to the steel which, I'm sure you're aware of that. There's just not many MLer Manufacturers that build their barrel from High Grade Center Fire Heavy bbl blanks, Savage Does. There is several Customs shops out there. Matter of fact, for a reasonable up grade to a TC or NEF you can have SMI build you a smokeless bbl.

I would consider T/C Encores to be a very high quality MLer but, yet several idiots that have used smokeless in them have blown them up. They simply weren't designed for smokeless.

Your comment about BP is ify. BP burns in irratic fashions. You could very well stuff enough of it in a MLer to be very very dangerous but the accuracy would be terrible. Most seem to like less than 100 grns. Say you even put 150 grns, a good many of the smokeless loads have far more pressure.

I like smokeless because it's clean, way more consistent, and produces far greater velocities w/ much less recoil than BP & BP subs.

Have a Good One

Reloader

Somewhere back dozens of pages The pictures and tests were shown , being a muzzleloader person and having made several & repairing dozens of every bore stuffer you can think of ? I saw a fault with the Mk10 Savage in breach plug design ! personally I won't get one untill they improve that fault !

I have checked every Gun Show in my area and not a Savage ML to be found. I would like to look at one up close before making my mind up. As much as I like ML I would probably buy a Savage to add to my collection. If Kansas would wise up and let us use a scope during early ML season I would buy a SS Savage ML for sure. Do you know if they make them in 54cal?

A White 97 was tested with a 600 grain conical atop 240 grains of Pyro P - no damage.

Same rifle model - 425 grain sabot'd bullet over 50 grains of AA XMP 5744 produced a beginning stock split but no further damage. 60 and 70 grains of the same powder/projectile produced the same results.

A 600 grain conical fired in the 97 on top of 70 grains of 5744 again produced a beginning split, lesser charges did not. Increasing the charge to 90 grains of 5744 under the 600 grain bullet caused separation at the barrel/action juncture, failure was expected.

The stock splits were the reason White went to a two stock screw design with a beefier recoil lug.

These tests were done in a controlled environment by a respected firearms company and were never meant to be considered load possibilities. These were tests designed to see just how rugged the rifles were. Do NOT try this at home (or anywhere else).

Underclocked, I suspected Doc went to a lot of trouble to proof his rifles, but hadn't seen this anywhere. Where did you get this info?

And how many Whites do you own? Something tells me you have at least one...

Doubless, I have a 98 Elite in .451 and a Super91 in .410. Great rifles.

The information..... I could email you a copy of the document.

I own a Model 97 Ultra Mag laminate, and Super 91 Synthetic, both in .50...

I am jealous... I am a huge fan of the .41 caliber, just haven't figured out how to get one of the Whites in .410 yet. (I am wondering if they are ever going to even make any more...)

And I would wholeheartedly agree about them being great rifles. Just won't take for the two I have, and will probably pick up more as I find them...

Yeah, I kinda like mine too.

Underclocked,

Can a White shoot 1000s of loads that conist of a 250 grn saboted bullet at 2500-2700 fps w/o any stock split and still achieve great accuracy?

I don't believe it would even come close but, yet I know several guys that do it in Savages.

Not down grading your White in any way but, it's not as strong as the Savage. If it were, there would have been much more testing w/ smokeless than you've mentioned and smokeless would be recommended.

You can drop 5 or six pellets of pyro in a savage and fire all you want but the accuracy sucks and the recoil will put you in the hospital.

We could all day on the strengths of each.

When is White going to start telling it's customers to use smokeless so they can shoot MOA groups at speeds of 2400 fps+?


Both strong Mlers.

Reloader

I know from experience that Knight makes a very tough barrel. I got a Remington 700ML as a second ML, and I like it, but my next will probably be another Knight. I wouldn't absolutely demand a 209 primer ignition system. The biggest advantage I can see with them is the "weather-proof" aspect of their design. If you insist on burning as much propellant as possible, or if you enjoy the whizbang factor (nothing wrong with that), you can go with the 209 and up to 150gr. charges. IME a CCI #11 cap lighting 100 gr. of Pyrodex (loose or pellet) is quite sufficient for Eastern whitetail. I'd stick with .50 cal. too. It's versatile, with enough power to do the job (unlike a lot of .45's).

Reloader, I didn't post that info as a challenge to the strength of the Savage. No doubt the Savage is a very strong design. Most people who buy Whites are not interested in achieving .270 or .300 mag results from a muzzleloader, they simply want an exceptional rifle that delivers remarkable accuracy with a loading system that is the essence of ease.

Load a White with a recommended load, then a Savage with one of your hot running sabot loads - the differences you'll note in those efforts are not inconsiderable. I read often of folks having to more or less stand on the ramrod to get a load down the bore of a sabot rifle.... I just smile.

There ARE shooters that experiment with smokeless in these rifles but the ones I know are only interested in duplicating performance of their standard loads. They aren't after "test the limits" performance, rather they are simply enjoying the economy and cleanliness of smokeless. When you can get 200 shots out of a pound of powder there is a definite economic advantage for someone that shoots a lot.

Smokeless (no debates about just what this is, please) is not for me however. I started long ago with a sidelock and smokeless is going beyond my own PERSONAL limits so far as what constitutes muzzleloading. Shoot 'em if ya got 'em, but they are not for me. Just a personal thing but I can see little effective difference between the kind of performance you describe and a .300Win Mag. I mean, why bother with the extra hassle of a ramrod? It's just a nuisance, isn't it?

I'm not anti-Savage in the least. They are just outside my personal envelope for muzzleloading. Like most things, that's subject to change but for now I sort of view muzzleloading with a Savage using hot loads of smokeless to be like driving a car in a horse race. Yep, they both go around the track..must be the same animal.

Just my humble opinion and not trying to impose my views on anyone else.

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If Kansas would wise up and let us use a scope during early ML season I would buy a SS Savage ML for sure.

If Kansas would drop the bullet diameter requirement, folks could use the 45 cal MLs more too.

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Legal muzzleloading rifle for deer (regular season) - muzzleloading rifles and muskets that can be loaded only through the front of the firing chamber with separate components and that fire a bullet of .39 inches in diameter or larger.

And that doesn't include the sabot.

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I would appreciate a honest opinion as to what you, as ML hunter's would purchase as your next ML

If I weren't to buy custom or assemble my own I'd shop with The Pacific Rifle Company http://www.pacificrifle.com

You are going to get a lot of different answers to this. If my state did not object and just for hunting I would probably get a Savage as I am a meat hunter and like to fill my tag when I can get lucky enough to be drawn to hunt. I now own an Omega which since I cannot use smokeless is the next best thing to simple and reliable and easy to operate with good company support.

The Savage can be shot with black powder, Pyrodex, 777, etc.. You don't have to use smokeless in it.

I understand the Savage can use other than smokeless but why would anyone want to put up with the extra stuff needed to make the Savage work and make clean-up more difficult when there are several other rifles that perform better with Pyrodex, APP, real black etc. The Savage has a sort of strange breechplug design and is a bolt which makes everything more complex. A break action or Omega is a lot simpler.

The savage works just like a bolt action rifle, nothing difficult about it. It's strong as he!!, a closed system and very water resistant, and a breeze to clean...I've hunted with and owned Knight, CVA, and Thompson inlines and the Savage is way above all the others in quaility and ability,,,,,also have a couple of more traditional ML's,,,,the only inline I have left is the savage

If going inline you are selling yourself short by not getting a savage,,,,

Of course thats just MY opinion, and I have owned and shot each of the rifles mentioned above, shot them alot in fact,,,,a whole lot.

One other thing about smokeless and recoil compaired to BP or Pyrodex,,, smokeless will make a bullet of an equal weight go faster with less recoil than BP. I've shot Pyrodex in my Savage and it kickes more than a smokeless with a load of the same or close velocity....

And to me it's more like running a race horse against a bunch of old swaybacks,,,,,,bet someone would still bet on the swaybacks,,,,,,

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Originally posted by PPosey:
The savage works just like a bolt action rifle, nothing difficult about it. It's strong as he!!, a closed system and very water resistant,

Be aware that some States have an open action requirement.

Now be honest; the Savage has to have the bolt removed to get the breechplug out unless you buy the special tool to accomplish that without removing the bolt which is not an easy thing according to reports I have read. There is also the intermediate liner thing to deal with but on the plus side I am assuming that you do not have to disassemble the bolt like most of the rest of the bolt rifles as the Savage has less blow back. Then there is the weight thing, the Savage is heavy, I have picked one up. You also lose the barrel length due to the bolt which could be better used as barrel length in a non-bolt gun. Of course this is just my opinion. Like I said if I could use smokeless I would buy the Savage. For non-smokeless I would pick something else. There is no quality problem that I have found in my T/C rifles.

Yes the bolt has to come out but ya know all that is required to do this is to back out a screw a couple of turns,,,,,of course this is not a big deal at all as this is something you do once every few weeks if you shoot alot and only once a year if you are like most shooters and only shoot your ML around the season.....

I have shot mine 75+or- times without bolt or breech plug removal with no lose in accuracy and it was as easy to clean as if I had shot it 1 time.

As far as being hard to load there are different sabots for different bullets and bores. Mine needs a good firm push with the correct sabot thats all.

I'm not saying that all the other ML's out there are trash,some are,,,they are just not up to the Savage in performance and convenience. Unless you have owned and or shot alot/maintained one then I dont see how you can compare.

I am happy with my Omega. Accurate and suprisingly nice trigger.

I would get it again if I had to do it all over again, but I admit, I would like to pick up one of the Savage rifles that allow smokeless powder use.

That was what I sort of said from the start. If I was going to shoot smokeless I would buy the Savage. I'm sure that shooting something other than smokeless you would not shoot continuously for an extended period without removing the breechplug which is somewhat more difficult than a break action or falling block type which is a little more user friendly for corrosive powders.