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Any advantage to either? I am sure aerodynamics come into play but I have been fooling with the idea of planning a traditional elk hunt with flint/cap locks and .50/.54 cal roundballs Does a roundball have a clear disadvantage on large animals or is the killing power still similar ? "Let me start off with two words: Made in America" | ||
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I have used 45, 50 and 54 round balls and 50 conicals on whitetails. I have settled on a 54 for round balls for deer. The other two work, but I was not impressed. They are soft and deform easily on bone, and wound channels are not always straight. I limit my shots to 75 yards with my 54 and only broadside if over twenty five or thirty yards when shooting wimpy little whitetails. I would be surprised if round balls would work well on something the size of elk. There is also the twist rate issue, the gun needs to be set up for round balls. Some of our experienced members can probably give you better advice, but IMHO, I'd go with a bigger rock. Since you are in pig country, maybe you could hit a few pigs through that shoulder and see what kind of penetration you get. Might give you a good idea of what your particular load will do. Bfly Work hard and be nice, you never have enough time or friends. | |||
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The Lewis & Clark Expedition fed themselves there and back with .54 caliber roundball flintlocks. Aerodynamics are not the roundball's strong suit; they lose half their velocity and two thirds of their energy by the time they cross the 100 yard line, so keeping things up close and personal is a good idea. If you don't have your traditional roundball rifle yet consider making it a .58 or .62 so that you can, in the words of Black Fly, throw a bigger rock. My rocklocks are a .54 rifle and a .62 smoothbore fusil. They kill deer just fine but I haven't tried them on anything larger. | |||
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I was looking into a Great Plains hunter in .54 cal, as I do not know of any other affordable muzzleloaders in .58 or .62 Any suggestions? "Let me start off with two words: Made in America" | |||
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The round ball has absolutely no advantages. They bleed energy incredibly fast compared to bullets, they weigh substantially less than bullets in the same caliber and they penetrate like hand thrown jello compared to heavy bullets in the same caliber. I wish IDFG would ban round balls for elk. I have 11 muzzeloader elk so far taken with 4 different muzzleloaders. What works on deer in Iowa is irrelevant to elk. You want strong, heavy, slow to expand bullets for elk to reduce the risk of poor terminal performance. Bullets retain energy far better than balls. Round balls may kill an elk but its riskier than a heavy for caliber bullet, even with 58s or 62s. Why take the risk? Why disrespect the animal? Why place your desire to act like D Boone above common sense? These are strong opinions but they are based on plenty of experience and observation of not only myself but other muzzleloader elk hunters I know. I have a Great plains 54 with the fast twist "hunter" barrel which shoots 535 grain NO EXCUSES bullets. That is a decent elk gun and load. (Weigh a 54 calliber round ball to see what I am talking about.) Elk hunting in the snow with a muzzleoader is addictive. Good luck | |||
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Thanks for the response SG! I am seriously looking into the Great Plains .54 and I have spoken to the man selling the No Excuses before. Sounds like a good elk combo "Let me start off with two words: Made in America" | |||
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The Lymon Great Plains Rifle .54 Cal has a 1 in 60 inch rifeing twist for shooting balls while the Great Plains Hunter rifle has a 1 in 32 inch rifleing (twist) for shooting modern projectiles. Like the Great plains Maxi_Bullet and Hormady XTP Bullets and Sabots. Lymon makes a better open sites for their muzzle loader called Hunting sites. For elk use the modern bullets. The best prices I have found was at www.midsouthshooters.com tuck2 | |||
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When talking penetration with round balls to know what you are talking about you would be wise to try shooting into wet lap at about 80yds.We have done this with rounds balls and cal.30 270 and 7mm Mag.The round balls were shot from a 50 cal. useing a 1 in 72 twist and 120 gr.fffg if you do this then you will learn somthing not all know... | |||
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Jon, what were the results? | |||
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OK.l won't tell you all we tried but in part. A story in a gun rag got me started as l thought he was wrong, he said a 50 round ball would penetrate 4 to 5" of wet lap at 50yds.so we put up 12" of wet lap at 50 yds.and we got complete penetration.Next we tried 15" backed by a Sears catalog at 80 yds.what we found was a round ball would penetrate deeper than a 7mm Rem.Mag. at that range.and a 270 was not even close.When we told anyone they thought we were BSing them,so we never mention it to most folks All l well say is try it your self but l would not say to much to folks they will think your NUTs..But the nice thing about this test is anyone can do it.. but most wont???? Jon | |||
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I only have experience with Roundballs on whitetails(45 and 50 cal). They are ok but, pretty ineffective compared to bullets and sabots. Most of the time the deer don't even act hit and they run a good piece with very little of a blood trail when hit with the round ball. One season for kicks I switched from round balls and hunted with a .429 240 grn Keith style cast slug in a Knight green sabot ahead of a measly 50 grns of Pyrodex. Never took a deer with that load, but had a heard of hogs come by one day at 50 yards. I shot a nice sow through the lungs and she went mere feet after the hit with full penetration. I know that doesn't prove much, but had I shot her with a round ball I don't think it would have exited and it was crucial to have good blood the thicket I was in. Conicals will give you better penetration, something you should strongly consider on larger game. Good Luck Reloader | |||
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Didn't Lewis and Clark also use airguns for deer and small game? I'm not sure what caliber they were. But even a big airgun has enuff nock down for small to deer size game. So any ml with a round ball should work on deer even if it slides on the rifleing. But for elk I would use more like a 58cal with a big cronical and 150 grains of powder. | |||
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They did in fact carry a .31 caliber pneumatic air rifle http://www.beemans.net/Lewis%20&%20Clark%20Airgun.htm | |||
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I have killed Alaskan moose and black bear with conicals. In all cases the projectile passed through the chest. The longest shot was 80 yards on a moose. It was cold, wet, weather, and this load was very effective. (100gr. of FF pushing a .50cal. / 285gr. hollow point pre-lubed conical) I get better groups at 100 yards with patch and round ball but loosing game over insufficient ballistics is not something I want to risk. Kill it quick and fill your freezer..... GLRodgers | |||
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I like the 320 gr real bullet from the lee mold with 100 gr of pyrodex out of my 50 cal with the 1 in 32 twist. | |||
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nugman...l think you and l are cut from the same cloth.lt seem's to me the oldways are forgoten, it is a great loss.all the best to you and yours Jon D. | |||
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On whitetails the issue isn't penetration but expansion. The skimpiest blood trails I've ever had were from round balls (.50). I used buffalo balls a combination of a ball and bullet and it seems to expand some or at least cause more shock and better trails. With either balls or bullets the trick is taking good, close shots and being persistant in tracking. | |||
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Splinter - Are you speaking of the Ball-ets? "Let me start off with two words: Made in America" | |||
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There are alot of good conicals out there. Most bullet mfgrs. would agree that something in the 430-460 grain conical to be best suited to Elk and larger than deer species. Do not believe me, call and ask for yourself. Many of the small guys will talk at length if they have a spare moment. A gent from Alaska that is mentioned on these forums has vast knowledge of hunting with all that is lead, but his name escapes me. What is the definition of traditional? Conicals go back to at least the mid 1800's . I am sure someone will correct the date, but you are talking 160-180 years old. Everyone has there ideas and there all fine, but how far back. Flintlock with round ball? Flintlock smooth bore? Matchlock smooth bore? Shoot a rock out of a piece of round metal and light it with burning torch? Possibly a sling like the Aztecs back to who knows when? They all killed men and beast, but the methods get more efficient with time. Nearly half the people in this country and much more than that world wide would have us all not hunt. Don't you all think it is about time to stop the pissing contest and agree to disagree. I can see how those who fight for an added season for smoke poles want some sort of regulations, but to my knowledge know of no state that requires round balls to fit in these rules. Millions of animals and hundreds of thousands of men have met there end to the round ball, but that does not make it the best choice for large game. Shoot some and decide for yourself. | |||
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I took a deer tonight with a conical, one I cast myself, a 360 gr minnie ball, real blackpowder and a percussion cap, wood stock and open sights. I was proud of myself for leaving the inline in the safe, now I find out Im not a traditionalist because I didn't use a roundball- sheeeeeze  I wonder if a 178 gr round ball would cut the spine and pass out the other side at a hundred paces the 360 gr minnie sure did. | |||
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Bugle, if you are going to go with the GPH... I wouldn't rule out .50 caliber. Check out the first two bullets for the .504 in the pic linked below (he can size from .500 to .5045, so check your rifle) http://home.mchsi.com/~rltsr/bullshop.jpg Sorry for the fuzzy pic, it's a pieced together effort by myself. Dan makes great bullets and they will come lubed with your choice of either his #2 lube (for subs) or his Speed Green lube (for true blacks). His prices are exceptional and he uses flat-rate shipping so up to ~500 bullets for one shipping fee. I know Dan can also do several bullets for the .58 bores - not sure about the .54 guns. He also has a bullet from a custom LEE mold I designed - the .50 UC Short.  It's .895" in length and weighs ~443 grains as cast in pure lead. Might be a good choice for that 1:32" twist.He can also do sampler packs reasonably priced. And NO, I have nothing to do with his business other than trying to help an honest guy sell a good product. Here's the UC Short from my own mold (and my own lube shown)  and here is a group fired by a fellow named Jeff in Indiana. These were his first 5 shots at 50 yards using the UC Shorts.   WHUT? | |||
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Well, I'm a die hard round ball fan and traditional shooter & competitor. But I'm also a strong proponent of responsible hunting practices. I'm getting a little long in the tooth and the eyes aren't what they used to be so I put a fiber optic front sight on my 50 flinter to shoot better in poor light. Hardly traditional, but more resonsible. I would also use a conical bullet for anything larger than deer, unless I was shooting the elk at archery ranges. I've killed a lot of deer & hogs (even mule deer) with RB's down to 40 cal. (even shot a bunch of hogs with 32's) and would argue they are extremely effective on game that size. High velocity & they expend most of their energy within the animal. All that bullet energy is pretty worthless expended in a tree behind the game.. They are also extremely accurate when a good combination is worked up for the gun. So whether to use RB's or conicals for hunting, the answer is, of course, yes  "You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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I just found the place I was speaking about. It is the Bull Shop. bullshp.gunloads.com He will make them to fit your gun with your bore size, and is quite reasonable. Don't call him and tell him you need him to send out yesterday, it won't happen. Dan knows more about bullet casting than most, just go to his site and check it out. I personally think scopes are a little much for a smoke pole, but I would also rather have someone hit a deer in the vitals than wound it and make it suffer. Just a question, might be a thread starter, but how much better is an inline compared to a hawkins with a green mt. barrel of the proper twist? Other than outwards looks, are they truly that much better? | |||
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Depends on what you're doing. Some of the inlines that are good, like (some of) the knights, are very accurate off the bench rest. But in the (offhand) shoots I particiapte in where they allow any ml, including plastic inlines with scopes, they never win. I can't even remember one placing. As for scopes, I agree they are way much on a ML. As a gunsmith, the one thing I refuse to do is mount a scope on a ML . Never have, and hopefully, never will. I don't care if someone wants to do that or shoot a scoped inline, I just won't do it for em. My feeling is that if that's what their priorities are (200 yard scoped rifle), just go on and get out the ole "thutty aught six" and be done with it  Nothing wrong with that either..I actually did stick a scope on a barrel I made for my contender carbine last year to prove a point about the accuracy of patched round balls. It's made from a 40 cal Green Mtn blank with a 1:48 twist. It would shoot under an inch consistently with rd balls at 100. Occasionally a flyer would open it up to 1.5" or so, but that was probably me as it was a 1.5-5X scope. It came right back off and the sights re-installed after the test. "You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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Just my personal preference here and my limited experience of 43 years hunting, but I would rather have an entrance and exit hole, with as large a wound channel as possible, smokepole or hipowered rifle. There sure are a lot of people that swear by Barnes bullets and Nosler Partitions, myself included. | |||
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I like two holes also. Some deer run, some die quick even when the shot appears to be the same. Tracking is always easier if there are two holes. With a deer size critter, you don't need to give up wound channel to get full penetration either. JPK  Free 500grains | |||
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Couldn't agree more. I've shot hundreds of animals with RB's and don't recall more than 1 or 2 that didn't exit the animal. IIRC, those were large hogs shot with 32-36 RB's They always expand to 1.5-2 calibers and expend most of their energy within the animal. This is due to the velocities & rapid expansion. But I don't take quartering away shots with RB's. A slower moving heavy conical doesn't normally expand as much (without hitting bone) and retains much of it's energy that goes on downrange with it. A friend once killed 2 deer with a 45 maxi-ball. The 2nd (doe) was 60 yards behind the first (buck). "You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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"If you want the modern aspect, then shoot modern. If you want to appreciate a different era, and learn to hunt, then shoot round balls." Round balls are not the only traditional projectiles from the nineteenth century. I borrowed an original .45-caliber sporting rifle made by Alex Henry that shot a 500-grain paper patched bullet poured from the original Alex Henry mold ... and clobbered a big bison bull in Colorado with one shot. It was an extremely accurate rifle out to 150 yards, and probably farther. It was typical of the rifles brought to North America by wealthy Europeans for their year-long expeditions after New World game in the mid-1800s. It was loaned to me by my friend Lynton McKenzie, a world-famous engraver who liked to restore fine black powder rifles and then hunt with them. Bill Quimby | |||
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Right on, minnie balls were developed prior to the Civil War, about a century and a half ago, that's different enough era for me. You can't make judgements about someones hunting abilities because he doesn't wear a coonskin cap,and carry a flinter loaded with round balls, I've seen a few of them there fellers that could'nt track an elephant trough a plate of mashed tators. | |||
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Not sure it's as matter of "judgements" (about someones hunting???). Don't recall seein' anyone's hunting ability questioned here. (but I may have missed it) I use round balls because they are more effective on the size game I usually hunt: Hogs & deer. And they are much more accurate in my rifles & pistols. Not because they are more traditional. But I like that aspect of them as well. I tried minnies (lyman's & Lee's) and never could get them to shoot as well as a patched RB. Of the conical types, I liked the maxis better for accuracy. "You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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and learn to hunt | |||
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A pretty long reach. I took it as more stating, traditional equipment requires getting closer, but sure didn't take it personally. Just shows to go, if you look hard enough for something to be offended by (on the net), you'll find it "You can lead a horticulture, ... but you can't make 'er think" Florida Gardener | |||
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Just read what it said.  you can't be talking about me being offended, I cast and shoot round balls, maxiballs and minnies, black and pyrodex, side lock and inline, scoped and unscoped.  Just an all around guy, try it all. | |||
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"I cast and shoot round balls, maxiballs and minnies, black and pyrodex, side lock and inline, scoped and unscoped." What about long bullets for caplock rifles with the proper twist? During the 1960s a friend and I hunted on another friend's ranches in Texas for about fifteen consecutive years. There were generous limits there and the two of us shot more than 100 deer during that period, most of them with replica American and European flintlock and caplock muzzleloaders. We found that nearly every deer we shot with round balls would run at least fifty yards before going down. We also tried minnies and maxiballs but finally settled on heavy, greased bullets because they usually killed the Hill Country's little deer in their tracks. Accuracy wasn't good, though. That was no problem where we hunted because most of our shots were way under 50 yards, but we decided we'd need barrels with twists designed for bullets if we wanted to shoot at longer distances. Pyrodex was starting to get popular among muzzleloaders, but we never tried it. Incidentally, I remember a small buck I shot with a round ball. It dropped at my first shot, but got up and was getting away when I dumped some powder down the barrel and pushed a ball down the bore -- without a patch -- put on a cap and killed the deer about 60 yards off. I was lucky to have hit it running at that range, but I shot a few balls without patches on targets and found that out to 40 yards I probably could kill every deer I shot at without using patches. I never tried it on a deer on purpose, though. Anyone have a similar experience? Bill Quimby | |||
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Bill; I have wondered about trying 50 cal grease grooved bullets for the 50/70-50/110 class in my inline with its 1 in 28 twist, maybe size all the grooves to .500 except the top one, or one of the 500 S&W bullets, or paper patch a .458 bullet up. I may have to do some experimenting, I've got 3 45 cal molds from 450 to 500 grs. There's always something to try, lately it has been 494 gr roundballs out of the 12 ga. A friend sold quite a large collection of Hensley and Gibbs molds, about 100 of them, I'll check and see what he kept for himself, maybe has something that will work. | |||
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Swheeler: You'll never know until you try it. I'd go carefully with your loads, and work up to what shoots best. Greased bullets are heavier than other projectiles, and bring increased pressure. | |||
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Sorry I missed your question...I think ball-ets is the correct term. Off the top of my head, they are 230 grains. "I'm smiling because they haven't found the bodies." | |||
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I have two 58 cal.'s Both are renegades, one is a flinter and the other a caplock. I use roundballs in both. I've never had a deer take a step after being hit with one. | |||
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