Ok -- this is going to sound like a Newbie question --- I am in the mood for a new smoke pole. I am not really a novice as per say on Muzzleloaders - but apparently have just awakened from a considerable time warp as to the latest and greatest equipment (rifles, powder and bullets). I hunted extensively with a muzzleloader during the mid 70s and into the 80's -- half a dozen elk -- several deer and a bunch of antelope met their demise at my hands. Started with a TC 50 cal Hawken --tried a 54 Renegade -- thence a Knight in line in 54 cal. However, time flieth and I have been hunting with every thing else at hand from archery - pistol - high power - etc. Have a strong chance at chasing Moose this fall -- decided smoke pole might be a good plan. I am a Colorado hunter -- thus no sabots allowed - and I will be using the rifle mostly on the bigger critters such as elk, Bear and Moose. My last experience was using a 54 cal, which no longer seems to be the caliber of choice. When I was in the "know" as so to speak a 54 was the caliber of choice with a few even using 58's-- what the heck happened??-- I am guessing the introduction of the sabot has considerably changed the whole muzzleloader industry. However as I previously noted - sabots are a no-no in Colorado. So—need your recommendations for rifle and associated bullets etc. for the bigger critters
Thanks
G

Get a Savage !

For Colorado the choice would be a White. I understand that there are a few 91's still available from White if you hurry.

I believe your minimum caliber is .50. Too bad. But probably a good thing. I prefer a paperpatched bullet in a .45 caliber - something in the 475-550 gr range.

So, I'd either build a 54 or larger roundball rifle or possibly a .50 caliber fast twist to shoot .50 cal paper patched bullets. A gazillion options are out there, but it involves work and time on your part. Doubtful any gunsmith could do it for you in reasonable hope of being ready by fall.

Brent

quote:

For Colorado the choice would be a White. I understand that there are a few 91's still available from White if you hurry.

Ditto! I don't know about Super 91s, but I believe he still has some .504s in the 97 series. They shoot conicals/heavy bullets like a dream! I have said this before, but my 97 SuperMag with 100-gr. equiv of T7 shoots 50-cal Maxi-balls to 3-1/2" at 200 yards. That is plenty of elk medicine!

Several people have pointed to White as the way to go - however -- seems to be two Whites out there when I Google -- which is "the" one?

G.

If your looking for accuracy and horsepower and not tradition my vote goes to the Remington 700 fifty caliber. I understand Remington quit making them, but they are available used. Oregon does not allow sabots, plastic belts, jacketed bullets, pelletized powder, closed ignition, scopes, luminous sights or conicals over and and one-half diameters long. Whew, that said, with a quality peep sight, I have seen numerous five shot groups averaging under a minute of angle at 100 yards shot by friends, not myself unfortunately. The load used by most of us is 120 grains of Goex 2f, a Wonder Wad and a 385 grain groove diameter soft cast conical lit off by a musket cap. The soft bullet will shoot through an elk sideways at 100 yards. I believe if it were made of hard lead it go nearly length ways through one.

Just my two cents worth.

Doc is the inventor, and his website is www.whitemuzzleloading.com

The "store" that carries his designs is www.whiterifles.com I do not know if they are still a viable business or not, but there should at least be someone at the phone number...

Good luck!

Colorado -

No Sabots
.50 Cal +
No Scopes
Loose Powder
Must be blackpowder (So if you get a savage you cannot use the smokeless powders that most love out of their Savage 10ml's)

Actually, I don't think it is that cut and dried:

The CO regs do say no smokeless, but do not specifically exclude black substitutes like Pyrodex and the like... And they do state no pellets. And minimum caliber for elk is 50, not 50+. A subtle difference, but different none the less.


What I find particularly interesting is that from what I can tell, there is no provision for using an "inline" scoped or 'pelletized" muzzleloader at all. Rifle season specifies a "cartridged" firearm.

IIRC, Colorado tried this once before, and the firestorm was enough to make them rescind the rules change. That may happen again...

Co. has no sabots,no smokeless,no pellets, no scopes. 50 cal.for elk.
The White is a fine rifle. Try to find one tho.
Either a 97,98 or super 91 will do the trick.
I am not familar with the Lightning or Thunderbolt.
Remember the White needs .504 bullets But they can be purchased at bullshop. 460 grain is very good.
Redclub

White is still selling bullets also, as well as a few rifles left. I think they are 91's according to a telephone conversation last week with someone at White. I just bought some bullets from them.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
And minimum caliber for elk is 50, not 50+. A subtle difference, but different none the less.

When I wrote .50+ I meant use .50 caliber and up since the minimum is .50. I figured the users on the forum would understand what I was saying.

You guys are kinda sorta telling me something about White of which I know nothing -- are they going out of business??---and if they are and one has to use a goofy size bullet (504) what is the future with that deal??

I also like the Remington 700. Last I knew Bobs gun & tackle shop in Hastings Michigan had some new ones for $250.00 with all 3 ingition systems. They do not have a web site but the phone number is 269-945-4106 9AM to 8PM Monday thru Saturday 9AM to 6PM Sunday, Thats eastern standard daylite time.
Willians gun site has a good supply of used ones. I have bought used ML, rifles from them as well as shot guns. What they tell you the condition is you can count on
http://www.williamsgunsight.com/
http://www.williamsgunsight.com/gunsights/813usedblkpowderguns.htm

The 504 conicals can be bought thru Bullshop, and maybe some other bullet casters.

Al

I don't know if White is going out of business or not, but I do know he makes (made?) the only real MZ specfically designed around a heavy conical bullet. All three of mine shoot 1-1/2" groups with lead, repeatedly. And the first three shots with saboted TC 300-grain Snock Waves were 1-1/4" out of the two .504s... (I haven't figured out how to put sabots in my .410, but see no real reason to. It shoots the RCBS BPCR bullet like a conical.)

The Whites are the absolute picture of simplicity. Mine breaks down into five parts for cleaning, including the breech plug. It is all stainless, uses a Bold brand trigger, comes with Marble or Williams fixed sights, is drilled and tapped, and typically has either a laminated or wood stock although some were/are available with synthetic stocks. My Super 91 stock is synthetic. The only thing I can see possibly needing to be replaced is the breech plug at some point, and extras are available.

A lof of guys on here do their own casting as well, and I have said over and over that my own cast Maxi-Balls are the right diameter and shoot extremely well. And as has been said before, the bullets are available if you don't cast yourself.

Remington bolts are a pain to break down, from what I have been told, and there is a reason they are no longer being made. There is also a reason they are inexpensive... But I readily admit I have never shot a Remington MZ...

I guess I just hate to see a good man have financial problems. Doc is a good man, with a world of knowledge. I don't know why his Whites never became the top selling muzzleloader, but as has been said before, just try to find one... The folks that have one typically don't get rid of them. There is a reason for that, too. If parts and service were too frequent, or unavailable at all, they would be everywhere. But they are not.

And I know why. Mine aren't for sale either.

Most Remingtons sold used, are selling for better than new prices, I searched for one last spring and found that out.
Remington no longer makes the 700 ML due to the cost of produceing them. They do import one thru BPI now.

The bolt isn't all that hard to take apart and clean if you have the right tool, $10.00.


I also don't think they are much harder to clean than an side lock Hawkins either.The trigger guard is bigger than an Omega so you can wear gloves and shoot when it is cold out
it also don't have that QLA either.
50cal


54cal


Al

quote:

Originally posted by alleyyooper:
I also like the Remington 700. Last I knew Bobs gun & tackle shop in Hastings Michigan had some new ones for $250.00 with all 3 ingition systems. They do not have a web site but the phone number is 269-945-4106 9AM to 8PM Monday thru Saturday 9AM to 6PM Sunday, Thats eastern standard daylite time.
Willians gun site has a good supply of used ones. I have bought used ML, rifles from them as well as shot guns. What they tell you the condition is you can count on
http://www.williamsgunsight.com/
http://www.williamsgunsight.com/gunsights/813usedblkpowderguns.htm

The 504 conicals can be bought thru Bullshop, and maybe some other bullet casters.

Al

Al-- called Bobs-- they are all sold out -- tried Williams but am really looking for a 54 if I can find one (Rem 700)
Thanks
G

http://www.ktpguns.com/interior.php/pid/28/gid/108091

If that doesn't work, just go to Kittery Trading Post, used guns, search for Remington and Muzzleload: Long Gun.

ps: they have a couple more including an MLS. I've owned a 700ML and while it was a good gun and accurate - there is no way I would trade one of my Whites for one.

I was told that Sportsmans warehouse in NEW IDEA HO has some new ones yet too. Don't know the caliber.

Al