Hello Gents

I recently purchased a new Savage 10ML stainless, laminate, and topped it with a Leupold VX-3 3.5-10 scope. At 100 yards, best group using IMR4759 was 2 1/2". Best group with IMR4227 was 2 1/8". Both using 250 gr. XTP w/ MMP black sabot. I have no major heartburn as this gun is shooting "minute of whitetail". However, a couple friends who have the same gun claim all holes touching at 100 yards. Are they talking BS or is my gun shooting sub par? Thanks in advance.

Are these loads recommended by Savage? Kind of hard to tell what the issue is without specifics, but pushing a bullet too hard or not pushing one hard enough are both equally-rated suspects, as I see it. Smokeless in a muzzy is a different bird altogether. Have you looked at the sabots to see if you are burning them or blowing them apart? Might try setting up to catch a sabot and see what they look like.

And it might be nothing more than the barrel not being broken in yet...

Just too many variables to pinpoint the problem, I think.

And as for your friends cutting holes, I would just ask to see a few targets, or maybe go to the range with them. You can always mimic what they are doing if their results are much better than yours!

I tried various loads per Savage, Randy Wakeman, and Winks in Md. who sells a bunch of them. I have shot the gun a total of 32 times. Someone suggested replacing the vent liner. My friends who are "cutting holes" live several hours away. They are using 48 gr. IMR4227 (same bullet, sabot, primer) which is yielding 2 1/8" for me. Here again, my gun will certainly kill, but should I expect more? Thanks for your input!

If you are using recommended components. then the first major contributor to less than ideal groups is heat. You have to wait an ample amount of time to let the barrel cool ( usually a min of 15 mins. between shots ) unless you use a cooling rod.The heat plays havoc on the plastic sabots, especially with the speeds produced by smokeless loads. These savages are finicky to say the least, but once you find the recipe it isn't hard to achieve the groups your friends are mentioning.

Considering what Smoketeer had to say, if it is that much trouble to get a Savage to print like it should, I would opt to go with conicals and forget the sabots... Get a decent conical, check them for weight variation, print them and see what you get with something other than smokeless. That is, after all, what a muzzy is designed for!

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Originally posted by Doubless:
Considering what Smoketeer had to say, if it is that much trouble to get a Savage to print like it should, I would opt to go with conicals and forget the sabots... Get a decent conical, check them for weight variation, print them and see what you get with something other than smokeless. That is, after all, what a muzzy is designed for!

If you want to shoot conicals might as well go sabotless with .50 cal modern bullets and smokeless and still have the speeds without the mess. Heat won't be an issue.
My recommendation was for obtaining the tightest groups possible, heck even benchrest shooters battle heat and there's no plastics involved,if my suggestion is too much trouble just load and go and get your minute of whitetail.

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If you want to shoot conicals might as well go sabotless with .50 cal modern bullets and smokeless and still have the speeds without the mess. Heat won't be an issue.
My recommendation was for obtaining the tightest groups possible, heck even benchrest shooters battle heat and there's no plastics involved,if my suggestion is too much trouble just load and go and get your minute of whitetail.

That heat issue you are talking about... I have never experienced it. I own several White muzzleloaders, and before I decided to go strictly conicals, I played with Hornady SSTs. With two of my rifles, the first three shots I fired out of them went into 1-1/4", and that was load and fire the saboted projectiles about as fast as I could, certainly no more than 60 seconds apart. I figured that was about as well as the White would shoot plastic. I have since found that with the correct amount of attention, the Whites will often cut holes at 100 using conicals. Why go back to plastic?

A lot of states won't allow saboted projectiles in muzzleloaders. Some won't allow jacketed bullets or smokeless powder either.

And speed? The American Bison was almost wiped out with cartridges that rarely went much over 1300 fps, and most of them were shot from a long way off!

Smokeless burns hotter then black! smokeeter know what he is talking about. Conical are very hard to get to work with smokeless not enough pressure to get get it to burn clean and constant. Clint

I've always had much better luck with 300gr XTPs than the 250s. Henry Ball, who designed the rifle, uses nothing but 300gr XTPs with 5744 powder. That combo won't produce the speed of other loads but most rifles will shoot well using this combo.
My own rifles shoot 300gr SSTs the best overall, with the Hornady .458" 300gr HP a close second. Sabot fit in the bore is very important too, so try different sabots to see which works the best. The fit needs to be snug but not tight. I've used 4759 and it works well, but there are many choices. I would also stress the need to keep shots about 10-15 minutes apart until the weather gets cold. Barrel heat will cause sabot problems and the result is always very poor accuracy...which is why I never bother shooting during summer months.

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Conical are very hard to get to work with smokeless not enough pressure to get get it to burn clean and constant. Clint

I don't see the difference... both conicals and saboted bullets engrave upon firing. If they didn't you would never get either one down the barrel during the loading sequence.

And if you shot black, or even black substitutes, your problems would disappear. Muzzleloaders are designed to shoot black.

As I see it, you are mixing apples and oranges, trying to do something with a muzzleloader it was never intended to do. Why? Because it takes about five minutes or so to clean one after it has been shot with black? Help me understand why you want to limit your hunting options to follow the holy grail of smokeless in a muzzleloader. The smokeless won't outshoot black for accuracy, and the extra velocity isn't needed, IMHO.

Sorry, guys, I am just an outlyer. I own several muzzleloaders that have, on occasion, cut holes with conicals or maxi-balls and black substitute; not even black, which is proven to be more consistent! Watch what the BPCR guys do with black and then tell me it won't shoot...

You guys want to shoot 2300, 2400 fps and have a piece of plastic dictate how tight your group is...

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Originally posted by Doubless:

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Conical are very hard to get to work with smokeless not enough pressure to get get it to burn clean and constant. Clint

The smokeless won't outshoot black for accuracy, and the extra velocity isn't needed, IMHO.

.494 inch 3-shot group at 100 yards, with wind, first time I shot my new smokeless. Let's see your black do that...

How about three shots you can cover with a quarter. That is .952"/2, which is .476" if my math is right... and that is with a .452" CONICAL... are you listening?

Don't try to tell me black won't shoot. Your ignorance is showing...

And, by the way, wth does wind have to do with anything?

For many of us smokeless ML users, the lack of stinking smoke, cheaper powder costs and far less cleanup mess are just as important as 2300-2500fps speeds. I still have an Encore too, and with BlackHorn209 the cleanup is certainly better, and there's no patching out the barrel between shots...but accuracy and velocity still don't come close to my Savage using smokeless. All it takes is a bit of experimentation with a few different sabots and the accuracy will be there. And all of the stinking smoke and mandatory cleanings won't.

John, I respect that. What I don't respect is someone saying flat out that black won't shoot. If cleaner is better for you, that is great; and again, I fully respect your decision, and the reasons behind it. As I said above, smokeless just limits hunting opportunities in some areas, and to me that is enough to dissuade me.

The poster I have a bit of an issue with makes blanket statements that are unsupportable. In fact, they are just flat out not true.

One final thought: I do not know of a single modern muzzleloader that has suffered a catastrophic failure from black. If I am wrong, I would welcome the additional information and knowledge.

I agree with you on that. In fact, before the BH209 became available all I shot was Swiss brand BP in that Encore. It far and away beat T7, Pyrodex and Shockey's stuff. Much easier to ignite and cleanup was no more bother than with those sub's.
I used to own a White ML, and it was designed for their conical bullets...it never shot saboted loads worth a darn but those big conicals would really group well. IIRC, the bore diameter was a bit oversized to facilitate easier loading, slip fit or some such term. Well made rifle too, but it just wasn't where I wanted to go with the ML.

My savage is scary accurate with any bullet and any powder including black powder, american pioneer and pyrodex. My go to load is a barnes 290 grain tipped mz. I replace the sabot with a mmp black. I run this over 44 grains of 5744. I don't shoot it much. No need to. Last time I fired a group three shots measured an honest 3/4" edge to edge not center to center. All I typically do is shoot one shot to confirm zero and foul the bore.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
How about three shots you can cover with a quarter. That is .952"/2, which is .476" if my math is right... and that is with a .452" CONICAL... are you listening?

Don't try to tell me black won't shoot. Your ignorance is showing...

And, by the way, wth does wind have to do with anything?

You don't know what wind has to do with shooting tight groups? And you say MY ignorance is showing?

I didn't say "black won't shoot". In fact, I didn't see anybody say that. You said "smokeless won't outshoot black". I, and it seems like a quite a few others, seem to be showing otherwise, at least in the vast majority of cases. You provided no evidence to support your statement. When I cited a micro-measured group to challenge your statement, you cited what sounds like a less-than precisely measured grouping to argue your point, and then you got all defensive. Paranoia?

If you've got a smokepole that apparently shoots like a champ, good for you. But for every one of those, we've all seen (and fired) a whole pile of others that shoot groups to be measured with rulers, not micrometers. Not to mention the dreaded "flyers" that we just chalk up to "that's muzzleloading". As for the question of velocity and energy, obviously there's no debate there. It's just funny to me that whether you're talking bullet velocity, the size of a TV screen, or even penis size, the only people who say "you don't need more" are usually the ones that don't have it.

The more you talk Clueless, the more you show your ignorance. I suggest sticking with Books on Tape, because reading obviously isn't your forte.

Again, I DIDN'T SAY BLACK WON'T SHOOT. Show me where I said that. You are the ONLY one on this thread who keeps saying that. Even if I said that smokeless is inherently and empirically (we'll wait while you look that up) more accurate (which I didn't say), that is NOT the same as me saying that black won't shoot. Yes, I challenged you by saying, "let's see your black do that", because the only indication you'd offered of what kind of accuracy you are talking about was first "with the correct amount of attention, the Whites will often cut holes at 100 using conicals", and then "I own several muzzleloaders that have, on occasion, cut holes with conicals". You invited challenges with your statement that smokeless won't outshoot black, and I offered my experience that required zero "attention" but produced excellent accuracy with smokeless.

And show me where Moderator John S. said I'm full of it. In fact, I believe he said "but accuracy and velocity still don't come close to my Savage using smokeless". Hmmm. As for mike7mm08, he said that he gets good accuracy in his Savage using all sorts of propellants. I believe that. Why would I say he's full of it? But I don't believe he's saying that smokeless won't outshoot black. Again, that's two different things. And my gun is not a Savage (again, you're making assumptions and putting words in my mouth).

You also seem to be changing your story now. First you said your group "can be covered by a quarter", and then offered some math based on the diameter of a quarter, I assume. Now you say you actually microed it? Again, good for you. You are just proving that black can shoot, and no one said it couldn't. It was you that said that smokeless won't outshoot black for accuracy, and that's fine, because even though most will disagree with your statement, you didn't say "smokeless won't shoot". There is a difference.

I also never said anything about any particular person's penis size. I was simply suggesting that the more someone says they don't wish they had more of something, the more they probably do wish they had more of it. In other words, I'm saying that as much as you seem to be a fan of blackpowder, I think you do wish it performed more like smokeless in terms of velocity/energy.

And if you believe that the length of time that someone has been registered on this board is somehow an indication of their level of knowledge or experience in a given area, well, there's nothing more I can say on that except that you are obviously an expert in all matters related to muzzleloaders, but I guess you weren't when you first registered here and were just a "newbie" (you apparently have to attain a certain magic number of posts first).

I'm sure you are a much better shot than me and could "shoot circles around me all day long". And yet, despite that, the best your black can (occasionally) do in your marksman hands is essentially the same as I did the first time I used smokeless. Hmmm.

They say that you should never argue with children or idiots. We'll, I'll add "experts" to that list, admit defeat, and take my leave. I've already wasted far too much time on this pointless discussion and don't wish to waste anymore. I wish you much success and happiness shooting black.

I have deleted my last previous post in this thread. It went too far, was insulting and inflammatory, profane, and contributed nothing to the conversation. I apologize to all, and will not participate further in the thread.

DoubleDon, did you get my PM? Whoops, never mind.
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