Took the ML10 to the public range this weekend. After talking w/ a couple of fellows about the accuracy and cleanliness of this MLer they showed alittle intrest especially after I told them I was pushing 250 grn SSTs at over 2300 fps. Then, I went ahead and fired three 250 SSTs on top of 44 grns of 4759 at 100 yards. One ragged hole. I told the fella next to me to take a look through his scope at the target, he couldn't believe it. After I told him I had fired it about 50 times w/o cleaning it, He said he was definitely buying one. Still don't plan on cleaning it anytime soon either .

I also tried it at 200 and put two almost touching 6" below the bullseye. Not Bad.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Great news the more converts the better I love hunting with my muzzle-loader.

Do you think Thompson Center Arms will ever wake-up and make a smokeless muzzle-loader barrel for the Encore? If and when they do it will be next on my list since I own a 50cal SS Encore.

quote:

Do you think Thompson Center Arms will ever wake-up and make a smokeless muzzle-loader barrel for the Encore? If and when they do it will be next on my list since I own a 50cal SS Encore.

I doubt it but, it would be one heck of a seller. If Savage would market there MLer alittle more it would be more succesful. You don't hear much about the Savage MLers and many folks have never heard of them.

Reloader

Swede,

I'm pretty sure that SMI makes smokeless MLer Barrels for a TC. You could probably call them and find out. Not sure what their number is but, you can probably do a search for em' and find it.

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:
Swede,

I'm pretty sure that SMI makes smokeless MLer Barrels for a TC. You could probably call them and find out. Not sure what their number is but, you can probably do a search for em' and find it.

Reloader

Sorry for the dumb question but who is SMI I can't find them on the internet doing a search? If you could post a link I would very much appreciate it.

Thank You

No Problem, here it is:

Try this first:

http://hpmuzzleloading.net/SMI.html

and then:

http://www.smokelessmuzzleloading.com/

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader:

quote:

Do you think Thompson Center Arms will ever wake-up and make a smokeless muzzle-loader barrel for the Encore? If and when they do it will be next on my list since I own a 50cal SS Encore.

I doubt it but, it would be one heck of a seller. If Savage would market there MLer alittle more it would be more succesful. You don't hear much about the Savage MLers and many folks have never heard of them.

How many states allow smokeless muzzleloaders for hunting? I know it's "blackpowder/blackpowder subsititute" only during muzzleloader season here in Michigan and Wisconsin. Minnesota's regs don't appear to restrict it.

It might have some bearing on the marketability of smokeless muzzleloaders.

There are several states that allow it not sure how many but, the guys over on the Savage Board seem to know. Also you can use this setup during some state's shotgun season as well as any states rifle season.

As accurate and deadly as this MLer is, don't think it doesn't go w/ me on MLer hunts as well as Rifle season hunts.

Here in La. our rules are Black Powder subs. That's what IMR 4759 is, a Black Powder sub and there is no way you'd lose that battle. I talked w/ the game and fish department and he said you'd never be questioned about your propellant as long as you were following the MLer rules, Hunted ethically, and had the proper MLer liscense. After all, it is a MLer.

Reloader

Reloader in case someone else is reading this thread that is interested in getting a savage muzzleloader,here is a couple of pic's showing how accurate a savage can be @200 yds.
I dropped 3 deer with mine this past year 1@65 yds running through both shoulders,dropped on the spot,1@48yds,shot in the head,dropped on the spot,1@234yds,behind the shoulder,took 2 steps and dropped.

Nice, Real nice.

Man, my Knight and CVA inlines sure are gettin' dusty .

Reloader

Hey guys,on the savage what kind of sabot are you using,and how long you letting the barrel cool between shots?Are you dry patching between shots on the 4759 powder?Thanks

I have ordered the high pressure sabots from MMP but lately have been just using the sabots that come with the sst's.I have seen where hornady was going to make their own sabots but don't know if they have already started to or not.
I have 2 of the savages and I don't clean between shots in either,if I do the groups open up.Have several friends that shoot the savage with same powder and one cleans between shots and the rest don't.Helped one fellow set his up and it wouldn't group at all cleaning between shots,so I guess you have to try both ways.With mine if I do clean between shots I find the bullets a lot harder to get down the barrel.
One sugestion if you are going to use the 4759 I would start around 41 grains and work up,I have noticed on the savage board that some get very good results with the lighter charges of 4759.The load I use gives me avg 2440fps and I like the speed and accuracy.
As for time between shots,it depends on how hot it is but I like to shoot the first 3 bullets from a clean,cold barrel for a group by just loading one after the other,just in case I get to shoot 2or 3 times in hunting sitution.
If you are a new savage shooter or an old hand at it you can get lots of priceless info on the dougva.proboards34.com

Charger,

I use the sabots that come w/ the SSTs, they are the HPH sabots that MMP sales. The TC was packing a different sabot w/ the Shock Waves, very similar but, the diameter was different. I don't know if TC is still using a different Sabot or not.

I use 44 grains of 4759 under a bare saboted 250 SST. I dry patch inbetween shots and I let the barrel have enough time to be cool to the touch. As Owensby said, it depends on how hot it is. If it's cool, it doesn't take long, about a minute or so. If it's pretty warm out, I've waited as much as 5-10 minutes.

Some Savages will not shoot over 41-42 grains under a 250 SST w/ bare sabots. I have a relative that has the same model I have and his blows sabots w/ 43 grains (Not every shot but, it will blow every few shots). I think mine is better on the sabots because it's been lapped a bit and the barrel is very smooth.

I would start at 40 grains and go up a grain at a time. Read the Sabots, if the rim of the base of the sabot is cracked badly and your losing pedals off of the front, you are getting close to blowing the sabot.

If you want to go higher in charge weight, put a 28ga. orb. cup (from a AA shot wad) over the powder then your saboted bullet on top of that. My rifle will shoot well w/ or w/o the 28ga cup but, I prefer not using them as that is just more to keep up w/ in the field.

Good Luck!

Reloader

i am currently having a smokeless barrel made for my encore now. i was told the lead time was about six weeks. i have another four week wait yet.
max

Max can you tell us more about the barrel,such as cost and twist,whether sights or no sights??
I have an encore too.and thinking of getting one.And wondering if who your getting yours from said anything about the action being strong enough for smokless?
Hope you post some results after you get your's.

i haven't seen it yet. i ordered it from ron name , he is smokelessmuzzleloading.com. he uses douglas barrels. i ordered a blued barrel , 28 inches long. there are no sights but it comes with a weaver rail. he asked that i send him my encore frame to fit the barrel to it. he fits them to minimum tolerances. he has a lead time of 4 to 6 weeks as he doesn't stock the encore barrels as he fits each one. the cost is $400
i plan on letting everyone know how it works out as another alternative to the savage. to note he also makes smokeless barrels for the h&r and the ruger #1.
max

I have seen enough! I am gonna get me one. Please describe ALL the neat stuff I need to go with the bare bones rifle including your preferred scope, etc. I am getting the SS 50cal with laminate stock. Thanks for helping me spend my money.

muygrande

Go to http://dougva.proboards34.com/ and look in the Savage Muzzleloader forum.

Also check out the sites listed at the top of the Savage Forum page (IE SavageML10.com). There is tons of data on those sites.

Good Luck!

Reloader

i sold my tc omega and i was extrreamly close to buying a knight muzzel loader but have been looking at the savage smokless muzzel loaders for some time now

my favorite load uses the 300 grain hornday sst and the 285 barns spitzer how fast can i push these projectiles realiticly in the savage and what do i gain up and beyong velosity wise over triple seven.

While my Savage ML10 is kind of heavy and a little crude it's easy, accurate, reliable and powerful. That's about the opposite of my departed TC Renegade.

I am shooting the 250 gr SST over the factory suggested load of 5744 and getting 1975 fps and two MOA or better. This load carries right out to 200 yds and is a gun I can count on.

700 Nitro,

You should be able to easily and safely obtain 2100-2200 fps w/ those bullets out of the Savage. I think you will be surprised at the accuracy of the ML10. It took me 1-2 hundred rounds to find a load that consistently would shoot an inch and less than an inch in mine.

What do you gain over 777?

Well lets start w/ cleaning, I think I probably have 30 or more rounds through mine since my last cleaning and that was over a period of a few months. She's still "spic & span" as we speak.

Also less recoil for a given velocity due to a far smaller charge.

Did I mention cleaning

I also love the fact that I can leave a charge in during several weeks of hunting and it fires reliably every time.

I experienced many hang-fires w/ 777 in a Remington 700ML but, That rifle isn't really designed for that powder in my opinion (too much primer fire escapes through the very poor nipple design w/o ever contacting the powder charge which is crucial w/ 777). I haven't tried 777 in my ML10 so, I don't know how it would react after sitting in the rifle for a few weeks.

Good Luck!

Reloader

thats not to bad basicaly im gaining 200 fps over my omega with 3 triple seven pellets....

what would be nice is if i could get 2300-2350 if i use the mmp sub base with black mmp high velosity sabot that comes with the sst

of course i could always go with the 285 grain barns and that would lighten the load and give me a bit more velosity and the design would hold speed much better down range.

the only other question is is the stock ambideztrus because im left handed basicaly as long as there is no cheek peice. im interested in the brown lamiate stainless steel rifle.

A relative of mine shoots the Synthetic blued version and he too is a lefty. Not sure about the laminated stock version, I don't know if it has the raised cheek.

You shoulde be able to get 2300 w/ your 300s if your willing to take it to the edge. I get right around 2400 w/ the 250s w/ a few different powders.

Good Luck!

Reloader

well i went and bought one yesterday its the satinless laminate wood stock i have lepould vxlll 3x9 scope sitting on top i plan on using the 285 grain barns spitzer we will see how she works.

Be sure to look over on SavageML10.com and check out the break-in procedures and what not. It can save you some time and alot of head aches.

About the best tips I can give you is to use teflon tape around the threads of the breech plug and vent-liner too. I started w/ breech plug grease and soon after was buying a whole new plug because the ventliner was stuck (couldn't even get it out by heating or soaking.)

Also use the HPH sabots from MMP (Supplied w/ the SSTs), they have proven to be the strongest for me (the only ones I can use bare).

A couple hundred strokes of JB bore paste doesn't hurt anything either. Seems to help accuracy and fouling.

Good Luck and Congrats on the New Rifle.

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by 700 nitro:
well i went and bought one yesterday its the satinless laminate wood stock i have lepould vxlll 3x9 scope sitting on top i plan on using the 285 grain barns spitzer we will see how she works.

CONGRATULATIONS!! I have that same model and
love it. At first, the barrel which looked smooth
was actually rough enough to tear sabots and I
had to get aggressive and hand-lap with Flitz.

One of the guys on Doug's Boards was having a
lot of trouble getting the Barnes bullets to
group well and found they were a bit too
undersized in diameter. He "knurled" them
between two #1 files until they attained a
diameter of .452, and then started getting
good groups.

Mine shoots the 250gr SST/SW very well, but I
keep playing with the .40 200gr SST/SW which
gets one into sabot problems.....they just are
not tough enough in warm temperatures to
withstand the launch required to send the
bullet out at 2700fps! It's GREAT during cold
weather, though.......seems like that's when
I hunt!

By the way, I'm a "lefty", too. After shooting
right-handed bolt actions for 40 years, they
just seem natural.

quote:

I experienced many hang-fires w/ 777 in a Remington 700ML but, That rifle isn't really designed for that powder in my opinion (too much primer fire escapes through the very poor nipple design w/o ever contacting the powder charge which is crucial w/ 777).

Reloader, did your 700MLS have the rem 209 kit or the cabela's? Reason I ask is when this rifle came on the market their were 8 of us who bought one. We have since switched to 209 most went with the rem conversion kit for 209, menawhile i bought the jobber or cabela's kit. I have yet to experience a single misfire with 777 and my accuracy is superb. Meanwhile all the others have either switched to the cabela's kit, back to pyrodex or switched to different ML's entirely after experiencing what you mentioned. Just curious b/c I have nothing but rave reviews for my 700 MLS, in fact it has been the only inline I have stuck with for such a duration..simply b/c it flat out shoots great and has been dependable. I will say I hate the fact of taking the bolt apart after firing for cleaning but other than that it has been JFL.

On the savage note I now know a number of guys who are shooting these ML. My opinion is AWESOME, seeing they are 100% legal here for the entire 1 month ML season if I were trading up the only one I would buy at this point is the ML10 II. Hornady SST 250 gr seems to be the preferred bullet of choice. I used it last fall in my 700MLS with 100 777, it worked fantastic on the game side...

Yep, the Remington Kit. I don't see why they wouldn't design it to deliver more fire to the powder. As is, it's not better than No 11s IMO.

The only two MLers I'll be hunting w/ for awhile is My Savage ML10 II and My Knight w/ the Disc Extreme Kit installed.

Reloader

I couldn't agree more and am glad I went with the aftermarket 209 conversion kit instead of the rem kit. Like I mentioned prior I have yet to have a problem with 777 and 209 with this kit installed, it has been nothing but improvements IME.

Is there a cheaper place to buy a 10MLII at than Natchez Shooters Supply? I am interested in buying the SST/Laminate version, and as I already own an Encore the Savage would be purely an example of wanton lust.

Natchez is about the cheapest I've seen. They went up a good bit when the accu-trigger was added.

Do a web search and see what you find. Might want to check w/ your local FFL dealers and see what they can get them for as well. The only bad thing about local buys is the dang sales tax so, Natchez will probably be the better deal and since it's a MLer they will ship it to your door.

Good Luck!

Reloader

Does anyone know if the accu-trigger is retrofitable (is that a word?) to the ML10 II?? If so, is there a source and price??

Lowrider,

You'd probably be better off just buying the Rifle Basix or a Timney. IMO the Accu-Triggers aren't all that great.

Good Luck!

Reloader

quote:

Originally posted by ART338WM:
Is there a cheaper place to buy a 10MLII at than Natchez Shooters Supply? I am interested in buying the SST/Laminate version, and as I already own an Encore the Savage would be purely an example of wanton lust.

I paid $500 to Natchez last year for that rifle. It was the lowest price. That's a lot of money for a Savage! A dealer here is asking $599 for one.

As to the Accutrigger I don't think much of them. The one on my ML1011 will only go down to four pounds. That's ok for hunting though. If given a choice I would rather not have a Accutrigger.

As to the value of a $500 ML10 I look at it this way. I am not all that interested in ML's anyway and this Savage is very reliable. So I got it over with. I have not shot it since last winter but I may take it to the range someday.

Check the laws where you hunt that smokeless is legal.

Reloader,
you talked me into a savage too! Just got it yesterday...hope to shoot it on Saturday. Now I just have to figure out what powder to use!

I bought my ML10 stainless synthetic with accutrigger last year from Natchez when they had a special going, If I recall it was around $430 delivered. It shoots as accruate as any one of my big bores much more than a front end loading Thompson I also shoot occasionaly.

ROSCOE,

Congrats on the new Rifle!!

I would suggest going w/ IMR SR 4759 or AA XMR 5744. The 4759 preferably.

Start out at about 40 grains and work up until sabots get stressed. (If you want to know what I mean about sabot stress, PM me).

The MOST important thing w/ these MLers is to let the barrel cool. Another very important thing is to use bullets that Measure .452" in dia and also use MMP sabots.

Win 209 Primers are pretty much the standard in these MLers.

Good Luck!

Reloader

When we talk about savage barrel cooling,its not just where its easy to check. Its all the way back to the receiver. The whole thing must come back to ambient

I think I can understand the "Stressed" idea in regards to the Sabot but I am always open to others comments. Have you tried Little Gun in the Savage? Some of the links in above posts indicate some pretty good successes. I am not a velocity Nut however I will take whatever is safe in this gun. I may be off base here so correct me if I am wrong but it looks like the true sign of too much powder is the condition of the Sabot after firing? Is it save to assume that if the Sabot is not "stressed" the load should be safe to use? My obvious fear is one of catastrophic failure.

You'd have to be to put l'il gun in a savage...To eratic..Thats the powder that has given the most probs...I'll make the same prediction now as I did two yrs ago.That even though its not easy to get IMR SR4759 will become the powder of choice with dirty ol 5744 a close second