Living in a country with nightmare licening laws, I would like to give muzzleoading a go. My 6 bore Hollis is a bit too much of a good thing, so am looking at a .45 or .54 muzzleloader. To meet local laws needs to be a sidehammer, traditionally styled. No sabots available or alowed so that leaves round ball or Minne's

Most of the rifles I see are rifled with a 1:48 twist as a compromise. Dislike compromises in life! But do they perform well with Minne bullets? The few I have seen at the club certainly don't shoot well with round ball.

Also which is the best make? We mostlt get Pedersoli rifles but can probably get what ever.

You advice would be appreciated.

I have the Lyman Great Plains in .50 caliber. Meets all the requirements you have listed plus is a 1 in 66 twist...great roundball gun. They make a Hunter version which has a faster twist and can shoot sabots, but given what you have desribed, you want the "traditional" Great Plains rifle. Beautiful gun and shoots really well.

........Keith

Another vote for the Lyman Great Plains Rifle, only my recommendation would be for .54 .cal if you are using round ball. The 54 will shoot as flat as the 50 @ longer ranges and will carry enough energy with round ball to the longest practical "iron site" ranges. A .535 with a Mv of 1700fps will still completly penetrate a deer sized animal @ 150yds with a broadside hit.

If you are going to use round ball make sure any rifle that you choose has a rate of twist between 1 in 60" and 1 in 70". The longer the twist, the better the accuracy with heavy charges of black powder,

Also look for deep rifling, "cut" rifling being the prefered. (.010"- .015" deep)

The 1-48 twists are typicly "button" rifled and are only about .004" deep.

They are a "compromise" and as such the do a "fair" job with either ball or minnie. The do a good job with neither.

More interested in a minne type bullet. Although if you are getting that kind of penetration on der I shouldn't have to worry about Kudu sized game at half that range.

.50 is not an option. only .45 or .54

Was thinking - with powder supply difficulties -to go for .45 with minne's, but perhaps a .54 as better as I am sure I could get away with using blasting powder instead of proper rifle ffg (sergent tke this powder and break it up outside the gates until it fits though the sive ) In my martini's 85 grns of Fg gives me 1280 fps with a 475 grn bullet. 120grns of broken up blasting powder gives me 1200fps with the same bullet but higher pressures.

Ganyana, is the caplock double rifle legal? If so the Cabela's (Pedersoli) Muzzle loading double rifle is available in .45 .50 .54, .58, and .72! it is regulated at 75 yds, and has a 1-48 twist! I just traded or one in .58 but haven't shot it yet!

Here in Texas, we have a PUBLIC LAND hunting license, that in most cases ie restricted to Muzzle loaders, or bow for deer, and wild Boar. I like to hunt with my double rifles, but didn't have one in a muzzelloader. I have several muzzelloaders with single barrels, all traditional caplocks in .45, and .50 caliber, but all have the 1-48" twist. If it is legal, the .58 is my choice!

Also, you really, really need to get a Dixie Gun Works catalog if you are interested in traditional black powder.

http://www.dixiegun.com/

Look at their site but by all means order a catalog, it is one of those 2 inch (50mm) thick books made from thin paper that has all sorts of interesting information and stuff.

With your blasting powder, I'd also be looking at a 54 or 58 caliber, if allowed.

quote:

Originally posted by Mark:
Also, you really, really need to get a Dixie Gun Works catalog if you are interested in traditional black powder.

http://www.dixiegun.com/

Look at their site but by all means order a catalog, it is one of those 2 inch (50mm) thick books made from thin paper that has all sorts of interesting information and stuff.

With your blasting powder, I'd also be looking at a 54 or 58 caliber, if allowed.

By all means get the Dixie catalogue. A person can have one for years and still find things he didn,t know existed such as black powder mouse killers and black powder window sash burgler alarms.

They used to also have dried Racoon penises. (a very popular item with bikers and buckskinners) They listed them as "coon bones".

A replica 1863 Springfield musket might also serve well as they are designed for "minnies" and will also do a passanble job with round balls.

The .58 should provide plenty of punch, but the trjectory makes ethical shots @ game over 100yds questionable. Range estimation would be critical @ longer ranges, but 75-100yds would be right up it's alley.

The Lyman GPR is probably the best OTC muzzleloader out there. Get a fast twist barrel with it and shoot round ball or conicals depending on the use.
54 caliber by all means, like any other big gun, one can ALWAYS load the 54 down (50 gr. FFFg makes a great target load).

If laws ae that bad there, can one buy black powder?

I can't imagine living in one of those countries with draconian gun laws, like kalifornia or some of those goofy eastern states in the US.

I would look to October Country for one of their English Sporter,

They used to also have dried Racoon penises. (a very popular item with bikers and buckskinners) They listed them as "coon bones".

A real "coon bone" or "Trigger Bone" from a racoon is not a dried penis but a real bone that is in the penis which works sort of like increased blood pressure does in other animals.

The .58 should provide plenty of punch, but the trjectory makes ethical shots @ game over 100yds questionable. Range estimation would be critical @ longer ranges, but 75-100yds would be right up it's alley.[/QUOTE]

quote:

Originally posted by MLKeith:
They used to also have dried Racoon penises. (a very popular item with bikers and buckskinners) They listed them as "coon bones".

A real "coon bone" or "Trigger Bone" from a racoon is not a dried penis but a real bone that is in the penis which works sort of like increased blood pressure does in other animals.

The .58 should provide plenty of punch, but the trjectory makes ethical shots @ game over 100yds questionable. Range estimation would be critical @ longer ranges, but 75-100yds would be right up it's alley.

[/QUOTE]

Actualy I think it is more of a cartilage.

I got mine from a trapper, and until it was dried, it was quite pliable.

Alas I no longer know the where-abouts of my "coon d**k".

I would also take exception of ypur recommendation for the "fast twist" unless one was planning on shooting primarily conicals. It has been my experience that anything faster than 1:60" does not shoot well with round balls in any thing bigger than .36 unless the loads are relatively light.

I prefer 1:48 twist for my "squill" rifles as they shoot well @ low Mv, but I like a 1:70 twist for a .54 as it permits exceptional accuracy with (relatively) high Mv. I use 120grs of ffg GOEX with a .535 RB in my .54 flintlock.

Would an underhammer be legal there??? They come in about any caliber you would want. My 50's are a 1 in 66 twist and shoot balls or maxi's, both extremely well. Either will shoot under 1 1/2" at 100 yards.
No 50's ????? Yet they allow a .45. Thats pretty weird.

An inline or underlever is perfectly legal here at present but ...The @#$%! UN is hosting a conference and then "assisting" in re-drafting our firearms laws on the 7&8 the April.

As South Africa, Namibia, Botswana and Moz have all gone along with "traditional only" laws (or rules) applying to black powder firearms I am not betting on us being alowed to stay with our current legislation. At the moment any firearm manufactured pre 1900 or any muzzel loading firearm (regardless of date of manufacture) is no problem to licence.

.50 cal though usually brings an investigation since all the police can think of in .50 cal is a soviet 12.7 Dshk or a .50 BMG, so applying to licence a .50 is a good recipy for a 2am visit by the fuzz to "inspect" the weapon periodically. They are friendly enough and leave after a couple of muinutes... Used to own a maxim machinegun- licenced and all and pree 1900 but was too much trouble to keep at home...And the wife wanted to own the home...so down to my last 17 guns! (from 43)

Ganyana, you may wish to consider a Euroarms copy of our American 1841 Missippi rifle from our civil war era. Roughly comparable to the 2 band 1853 .58 Enfield, the best of its day. They are available in .54 caliber and designed for a minie. You can easily find pictures, purveyors, and moulds on the web. I shoot one in .58 for 50/100 yard offhand competition, and shooters better than I hit clay pigeons easily at longer distances. It is easy to tune the locks and set up for accuracy. You can also shoot round ball with a patch with reduced loads. These guns gave taken buffalo.You may wish to see N-SSA.org for more info, links. Good shooting. ned

I don't know what your tastes are or how much you are prepared to spend but a TC Renegade can be found in 54 cal and a 1 in 28 twist drop in barrel can be had from Green Mountain. I did just that conversion and it loves heavy conicals and stout loads. The accuracy is outstanding and if coupled with a peep and front sight from XS Systems you've got a powerful quick handling hunting gun.

Spect if I had a 50 there I would be registering it as a 49 cal. after all they shoot .490 balls.
The reason I suggest an underhammer is because they are extremely reliable. With direct ignition and hardly any moving parts there is just nothing much to go wrong.
Whatever you buy I would suggest shooting maxi's rather than mini's if your going to shoot anything other than balls. Maxi's will stabilize at a much higher velocity than Minis.

deleted

Ganyana,

These guns are very well made, and in a moderate price range. Better locks and barrels than most. You should call to speak with Danny Caywood to ask about using minies in his guns, as he is a traditionalist and only uses ball. When he hears of your situation, he will probably be willing to advise you.

http://www.caywoodguns.com/index.htm

Like others have said here, you should probably go with .54 caliber. Ball ammo from these guns is surprisingly accurate. You may not need minies.

Wayne

Why not a Pedersoli percussion double in .58, .54 or .72 (latter roundball only). check out www.dixiegunworks.com. I think they sell them.

Brent

Ganyana; There are several web sites that may be of use to you.

http://www.avsia.com/tvm/ For Tennesse Valley Muzzloading

http://www.logcabinshop.com

http://www.octobercountry.com

http://www.trackofthewolf.com

There are many fine rifles at these sights to choose from and I have always found that they are very helpful. Another source of information for any blackpowder shooter is the National Muzzleloading Rifle Association at
http://www.nmlra.org

Thanks Oki. We are just so starved of real info here in the bush!

Lewis50, I just finished my Renegade. I put on a green mountain Stainless Steel LRH barrel. It has the 1-28 twist. I have a question about your sights. Can you tell me more about the sights? I was thinking about a rear ladder sight like on the 1874 sharps rifle. Have you ever seen a muzzleloader with one on? Thanks Ron

For a good over the counter smokepole I
Have to say the Thompson Center Hawken.
I have a 50 cal frame with a .54 cal
Sharon barrel on it. The balance for shooting off hand is unbelievable! I won alot of blue ribbons with it back in the day.

Be aware that most of the US made rifles have a crescent buttplate and can only be shot well from the standing position. This style also exaggerates the felt recoil if you are using heavy loads. It is popular here because it is traditional, but functionally it is far inferior to the British style shotgun buttplate.

If it didn't have to be traditional you could pick up one of these. In the right hands groups 3.75" at 500yds...250 grains of Pyrodex Pellets (five 50 grain pellets). The rifle will fire a 300 grain bullet at over 2500 feet per second. Ultimate Muzzleloader

I vote for a .54 round ball with a slow twist (1-66 to 72"). Look around for a T/C Renegade, in either percussion or coplock. They are no longer made. I see them for ~ $225. If you see one with a serial number starting with a "K", it means it was from a kit (may be worth a little less, as you never know who build it-or what was done to it. Granted, there isn't much to butting the gun together, but you never know).

Why a Renegade? heavy barrel, 1" cross the flats. Factory barrel is 1:48". You can get a drop in barrel from Green Mountain Barrels in .54 cal, with slow twist (~ 1-70") for about $125. Very accruate rig, and decent trigger. If you go for the flintlock-which I recommend-get an upgraded frizzen (the pivoting fence or wall that covers the powder/pan, and is struck by the flint to make the spark). Golden Age Arms in Ohio has them for ~ $18. Makes white hot branched sparks. You can alway sell your old barrel to recoup some money. For less than $400, you have a rugged, accurate, reliable hunting machine.

That's what I did. Check out "Track of the wolf" in Minnesota for other options. If you are handy, you can build one from a kit. The 1803 (Lewis and Clark gun, .54 flinter) is excellent). Good luck.

Traditional African is very different from Traditional American.

Pre 1836 Muskets tended to be smooth bore, from 10 Guage up and have abnormally long barrels - 36"-50" was normal. They were also heavy 20lbs and up. The reason was that a man could easily load whilst seated on a horse. Tou put the butt on the ground and stayed in the saddle to load. You used buck shot on anttelope and solid ball on the bigger stuff. Ones native oponants never came singly and a shotgun was far more useful than a rifle.

After the start of the Great Trek, Rifles came into high demand for hunting. Barrels were relatively short, heavy conical bullets used with relatively light charges of powder. Powder was in short supply and the Smous (Jewish itinerant trader) charged 5lbs of ivory or 3oz of gold for each lb of good sporting powder. Lead wasn't plentiful, but the bullets were always recovered and reused. Shots at game were very seldom taken beyond 25 yards and the advantage of the rifle was just that shot placement and hence recovery of the bullet was more certain.

Stocks were much straighter than American and butplates leather covered indi rubber recoil pads or flat horn plates in the English style.

Sights were generally leaf or adjustable, for, although hunting was almost always a close range afair, marksmanship was held in high esteem and battles between white oponants invarably a long range afair - Seldom less that 300yds and usually arround the ½ mile mark. - Against Zulu, Matebele etc the 4 & 8 Bore shotguns reigned supreme (when the odds were seldom less than 500:1, but the enemy used stabing spears and clubs only it was not necessary to keep them away from the house or wagons, only important to kill many every time you pulled the trigger).

One very distinctive "African" gun of the muzzel loading era was the "cape Gun" These were issued to the cape mounted rifles -hence the name- but a variation of this was in high demand on the frontier. The original "cape cun" was a 11guage "musket" on the right and a .577 rifle barrel on the left. Standard ammunition for the .577 Enfield rifle with its mine ball bullet was issued for the rifle, and a hefty buckshot load with 2 oz of pelets issued for the right barrel.

On the frontier, and over/under set up was prefred. A10 or 8 bore smoothbore barrel over the standard .577 (or even .451) rifle barrel. The top barrel could be loaded with heavy conicals for big game or massive buck shot loads for defence, whilst the rifle barrel was adequate for normal hunting or long range shooting.

After 1855, the breech loading Westley Richards Monkey tail rifles became the standard sign of a succesful man. These proved far more accurate than the Sniders and Martini's that replaced them and remained in use until the Mauser and Lee-Metford came in after 1888.

For the record and Interest- just reading a couple of good books on early South African firearms -including "The Cape Gunsmith".

"standard loads" for guns imported into, or produced in the Cape Colony were as follows

10 bore 5 drams powder and 2oz load

8 Bore 7 drams powder and 3oz load.

3 oz of .45 pelets makes the modern 10 guage magnum look not that impressive after all!

Get a fast twist barrel with it and shoot round ball or conicals depending on the use.
[/QUOTE]

Or I can make you a barrel for smokeless with a fast twist, like 1/16 that you can shoot 400 to 600 grain long bullets in at a much higher speed.

And have the front stuffer that "says" for black power on it that you can load up to a real fast speed and have the best of both worlds.

Shoot a "black power" gun to be legal, or load it up with smokeless and have the performance of a hi power gun. Or keep the black power but be able to go with a hotter load than most.

There are ways to have a lot of fun if you just think out side the box.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
Thanks Oki. We are just so starved of real info here in the bush!

Is a cartridge gun ok if it is Black power? I have made every thing from 458 to 700 Nitro express in black power. If you load "black power abs it "says" black power on it, is it ok?

If I make a gun with hi tech 4140 steal that is hi power rated, And I "down grade" it to "black power only" for "safety reasons", that's OK. All things are possible when you deal with the gun maker.

A 458 "Nitro express" for black power should not cause any alarms to go off and you could load up amo at home or on the range to suite the target.

At present no cartridges. Side hammer, percussion cap or flint ignition only.

In Zim, but I don't think South Africa ,we can get away with a caping breechloader- like the Sharps or W-R Monkey tail. But no enclosed breech, shotgun primers etc. Also it needs to be a pretty Authentic copy of an original period rifle.

Another question is how do the authorities look on replacement barrels? Would a gun with 2 or 3 barrels be registered the same? Just wondering as it would allow you some different calibers and twists that way.

If you want a very powerful, long range muzzleloader a .45 caliber rifle with an 18" twist shooting 550 gr bullets over 80-120 gr of powder will kill anything you want out to as far as you are capable of shooting. These are the pinnacle of muzzleloaderdom, circa 1870s and built by the likes of John Rigby.

Pedersoli makes one patterned after Gibbs' equivalent of the Rigby's rifles. They are considered the best off-the-rack rifle of this type available today.

Personally, I use a homebuilt underhammer with a .45x18 twist with 550g gr paper patched bullets. Good for whatever. The Gibbs is a bit more conventional in that it is a side hammer rifle.

Brent

Also it needs to be a pretty Authentic copy of an original period rifle.[/QUOTE]

Well I guess I could drag it behind my van down a dirt road fro a mile, clean it up and make it "look" like an "authentic" 130 year old gun.
I guess I could????

What about numbers? Old guns don't have a number and ones I make, [10 or less a year] do not need to be numbered. Does that cause heart burn for the law over there?

The law and BATF here don't like it one little bit but they must let it go cause that is the federal law here.

On G.P. I don't want to number my guns. I have no trouble stamping my or your name into it for ID, but numbers, "we don't need no stinking numbers!"

Ronjulian,
the rifles I have suggested are indeed authentic and well documented by photos in many books. Ned Robert's Caplock Muzzleloading Rifle being one of the better known. Such documentation would be very very easy to come up with.

Dragging it in the dirt would make it look beat up and poorly cared for. Not old.

Brent

Also look for deep rifling, "cut" rifling being the prefered. (.010"- .015" deep)

A 50 BMG ,for example, shoots a 510 round and smashes it into a 508 to 509 bore. I have not seen a 530 barrel. Where do you find a barrel with 30/1000 deep groves? For sure I have not seen it all, so this is something new to me.
Ron

No! Rifling that deep is good only for patched roundballs. You can get aways with it for conicals but fouling is nuts and PITA. Typical highpower, long range, top of the line muzzleloaders shooting things that are NOT roundballs will have rifling that is 0.004" or less.

Brent

quote:

Originally posted by Brent:
No! Rifling that deep is good only for patched roundballs.
Brent

So That's the deference, That makes a lot of sense.
Thanks, ron

Dragging it in the dirt would make it look beat up and poorly cared for. Not old.
Brent[/QUOTE]

Poorly cared for or seen a LOT of war many times. I just finished a M98 Mauser that I swear was run over by a tank! There were dents and dings over 15/1000th deep, and a LOT of them. It was a large ring Mauser so there was plenty of steel to work with but it was a LOT of hand work to clean it up. But it did clean up very nice. I don't think dragging it down the road would have beat it up any more than this one was.