I decided to buy a Savage smokeless front stuffer. Ordered it a week before the season opener. First time I had to use it was the day before opening day. Cleaned it out, reassembled it, fired two primers to make sure no grease or other obstruction was in the way of the ignition system. Loaded it and fired. Clunk!..... New primer, Clunk.... Again, same 5 primers later still no BOOM. Called Savage, little girl answered and asked what primer and powder I was using. Told her, She said, " OK just send it back and we will take care of it". Any tricks to try? "Nope just send it back and we will fix it." By the time you get it my muzzle loader season will be over. Her answer was Send it back if you want us to look at it or else find yourself a gunsmith to fix it. Off to the gunsmith. After a long session with the gunsmith we found that it would fire sometimes, not fire sometimes and hangfire sometimes. I guess I will go back to my twenty year old Renegade for this season, send it back to Savage and maybe have a gun to use in a year or so. Not impressed with this rifle or Savage. For what it is worth. If and when we get it working further report will be posted. Any Ideas from the floor on what may be wrong. I tried 3 types of primer and 4759 and 5477 powder. All acted in an unreliable fashion. I think something is wrong with the spring or firing pin. "D"

A Smith should be able to tell what the problem is quickly.

It sounds like the pin is not touching the primer some times or it's not strikeing it hard enough. The Savage bolt is a fairly easy setup and pin depth is easily adjusted. I had a 30-06 110 that the same thing was happening too and it was a simple fix. If not the pin depth or and obstruction in the bolt body, it could be the spring but, I don't think spring failure is a very common problem in these rifles.

First of all, is the pin striking the primer evry time? If it is then, I woould think it would have to be either the pin depth is set wrong (too shallow) or there is an obstruction in the bolt body.

Like a said a smith that knows anything about a Savage could probably fix it in just a few minutes.

Jump over to this forum and make a post as a guest if you are not registered, also pm Edge and RB and they'll be able to give you some tips as well. Savage Muzzleloading Message Board

Good Luck

Reloader

Reloader, Thanks for your reply. The primer was hit every time. It seemed to have been fired each time but just a click is all the sound that was evident. The primers seemed to be bulged out of the back and some of the time it took a real effort with a screwdriver or wrench to get it out. Odd deal. D

I see the words [reassembled it !] Did you take the bolt apart ? fireing pin should protude .040 from bolt face , Does it ? primer should have a nice dent .040 deep does it ? I had a guy with a spring in backwards once and the end of spring caught the firing pin stopping it from exiting the bolt face , reverse the spring and try again !look for metal shavings inside bolt that would stop fireing pin from working .

No I did not disassemble the bolt. I simply took the breach plug out, took the vent screw out and cleaned them both, added some anti-sieze grease provided. When I reassembled it and fired two primers through it air blew out the barrel both times. It could be that I am not getting the bullet all the way seated on the powder charge. I did notice that using the bullet starter I could get the bullet a portion of an inch further down the barrel. Even with the tighter seating it still gave me misfires and hangfires so I don't think it is all the problem. I did not measure the length of the firing pin. All primers were hit. All looked dented pretty good. Thanks for all suggestions. D

D Hunter,

This is strange indeed.

First of all, If the primer is indeed going off when fired then there is only a couple of other things that could go wrong: 1) trash in Breech Plug/Vent liner or 2) the Powder failed to ignite.

Having the bulged primers is not a bad thing at all, Mine does that regularly but, thats after it fires a load. They are real simple to remove, all you have to do is shut the bolt and pull the trigger again which, shoves the bulge back into the primer housing and then they practically fall out. If a misfire happens and the primer is buldged be sure to point in a safe direction down range when snapping the buldge back into the primer which, shouldn't be a danager if it is firing the primer like you said.


*****VERY IMPORTANT****** When the primer snaps and the gun does not fire, Reseat the bullet/sabot w/ firm pressure. Sometimes just the primer pressure alone can move a bullet up the barrel which can cause a dangerous problem if the powder does then ignite.

You could possibly have some bum powder but, I believe the primers aren'y igniting and the bolt is not fnctioning properly or the bullet is not seated firmly.

IMR SR4759 and AAXMR5744 are both very easy to ignite so if the primer is indeed firing and the breech plug is clear, you will get a boom 99.9% of the time w/ those two powders assuming the bullet/sabot is seated firmly against the powder.

I seat my 250 SSTs w/ about 50+ lbs of pressure every time, I'm not saying that much is needed but it works and I like being consistent w/ my loading.

Another little habit I have is taking a light and shining it at the bolt face (Bolt open and Unloaded of course) and looking down the bbl to make sure I can see the light through the ventliner. That ensures me there is a clear path for primer fire.

The gun will misfire sometimes if the bullet is not firmly seated I've been told. It could possibly create unsafe pressures as well.

Another tip is to modify your ramrod end if you are shooting SSTs or SHockwaves to protect the Ballistic Tip. You can also buy a attachment for your ramrod that will protect the tips.

Good Luck

Keep us posted

Was wondering what conclusion your gunsmith came up with?Did he just try firing it like you had or did he take the bolt apart to see if anything was wrong with it.
Interested in knowing what was wrong when you get it fixed.
How did your season go/Guess you were taking about the mtn section.I hunted the first day it rained all day didn't even hear but one shot all day.Didn't get a chance to go back any,but going on a 3 day muzzleloader hunt thursday thru saturday down in anson county this week.Taking one of my savages with me got it dialed in to 300 yds.
When you get that savage fixed and shooting you should really like it then.

Not to ask a stupid question but did you have the bolt closed all the way. I was having the same problem with mine. The bolt would come to a stop upon closing it. I never closed it as hard as centerfire bolt figured no need it just needs to closed right. Wrong upon further inspection and a good smack on the bolt handle I discovered the bolt handle would go down a little more. Problem Solved.

Possibly your breach plug is not seated completely in ? not allowing the bolt to be in battery as Mike7mm08 suggests .

I had the same problem (I'll save you the details) with my ML 10. Randy Wakeman at the http://www.modernmuzzleloader.com told me to use N110, MMP short black sabots and .452 Hornady 250 gr XTPs with 40 lbs of pressure on the bullet/sabot with Win 209s. I think it was the powder and sabot that made the difference.

It worked fine now and goes boom every time!! I killed a 110 lb doe last night with that load. I'm shooting a little over 2" groups at 100 yds.
Good luck with yours, but that combo worked for me real well!!

It is really odd. Firing just the primer in the rifle at night, fire blew out the barrel. It sure ought to be firing. If the fire blows out the barrel the powder should be getting a dose of it.
Owensby, the local smith didn't have much to say. He thought I had a bad batch of primers. I will be danged if I believe it. Not three different boxes of bad primers, three different brands. I will play with it a bit this weekend before sending it back to Savage. I will post again to let you know. D

It's the sabot and pressure that makes the differance just like a heavy crimp allows shotshells and pistol rounds the resistance it needs to properly ignite the powder.

The primers are fine...I thought they were the problem too, but found they were fine in shotgun shells and eventually they fired the powder as designed.

The bullet/sabot combo must make a hard to seat load that will seal and put pressure on the powder for it to ignite properly and burn completely. I tried Hornady, Knight and Thompson sabots and they worked only sometimes. I bought MMPs from Midsouth Shooter's supply and they worked great!!

I was ready to throw mine into a 60' deep striped bass hole in the Chesapeake Bay, but now it works great!!

Good Luck!!

When you said you fired it and fire came out the barrel,that says that the fire channel is open but when you add powder and bullet it changes and won't fire.Now I am really scratching my head.
I have 2 ml2's and did have one of the first ones that came out the ml-1 and have never had either failed to fire.Last year I put 1500 + rounds through 2 of them without any problem with firing tring different powders and bullets and primers.Like lowrider said it has to have pressure for smokeless to fire.I tried three shots using 4198 and a 245 power belt and it didn't shoot but I could tell it fired the powder by the sound turned the barrel down and the bullets fell out,so be carefull using different bullets and make sure you don't get complete blow-by and the bullet stays in the barrel.
I looked back at your first post and you didn't say what bullet you were trying,but if you were using any 451 or 452 bullet and any of the different 50 cal sabots it shoud fire.Even using a 40 cal with the right sabot and the fire is getting to the powder it should fire.
Sometimes it don't take many shots for the breech plug to get full with carbon and needs to be cleaned but after getting fire out the barrel that leaves that out.
Just cannot figure out where the fire is going and not getting to the powder.
Interesting keep us posted.

Owensby, I am using Hornaday sst's. They seem to be SOP for the Savage MLll. I sent it back to Savage. The replaced the breech plug. Didn't say why. I am anxious to shoot it but dreading if the same happens. I will post results. "D"

Thanks for the info. breech plug or vent liner must have been bad.lets us know how it shoots now.
I didn't take but 4 this year but there was 7 bucks and one doe taken with my ss model this year.

I think I figured it out. Savage replaced the breech plug but I don't think that had anything to do with it. I loaded it the first time and it was really cold. It has always been very hard to seat the SST's. This time it was very hard. Still I was determined to get the bullet seated. I had to put all my weight on it(the ramrod) to get it to move. Finally after several attempts the bullet seated further than it had seated on any prior loading by about an inch or maybe two. It fired with out a hitch. Prior to the next round I used a bore butter patch. This time I could get the buillet to place with only very heavy pressure and did not have to use all my weight. I understand that not getting the bullet to place is a dangerous thing. I guess the Lord takes care of drunks and fools. Lucky I didn't blow myself up. The ramrod seats almost to the top of the plastic middle portion with 40 gr or 4759 and a 250 gr SST. Is this typical seating depth for you guy's rifles and loads? Thanks, D

Some observations:

When I fire a primer with no load flames come out of the barrel and not just air.

The 250 gr SST's also fit very tight in my ML1011.

The ramrod should not keep going deeper with each push. Not sure if I have your details on this.

My ML10 is reliable and accurate and worked on a nice shot but I hope to get intersted enough to find an easier bullet to load in the rifle. Perhaps someone will make a suggestion on what shoots well for them but is easier to push into and down the barrel.

I really have to lean into the starter or later the ramrod to seat those SST's.

If you are willing to give up the smokeless powder powerbelts work very well in my savage. I am using 120 grains of american pioneer ffg under a 295 grain aerotip power belt. With open sights this load will put three shots touching at 100 yards. Cleanup is extremely easy. Two wet patches followed by two dry patches and it is clean. Loading is extremely easy you can start the bullets with your thumb and drive them home with just one hand.

FYI Those of you with Savage ML or ML-II's may, if you have not already, want to visit the website http://www.h_pmuzzleloading.com for interesting reading on your rifles.

quote:

First time I had to use it was the day before opening day.

D hunter, with all due respect, don't you think you started shooting this rifle about 6 months too late? I mean com'on??? Not only do animals deserve better than this but it's this lack of dedication that makes hunters look bad to the general public, or worse yet....can get people injured.

This is something that may help you get the sst's down better.
One thing is you can try different sabots besides the ones that come with the sst's
another is take some JB's bore cleaner and give it from 200 to 300 strokes (follow the directions on the jar.
I set up a savage for a fellow a few weeks ago first time to the range I had to quit because I couldn't hardly get the sabots (sst's ) down the barrel took it home and gave it a workout with JB's went back to the range and the sabots went down the barrel as good as mine does.And it shot a 3 shot group @100 yds less than an inch.
Using the 4759 I think most use 41 to43 grains.For the last 3 years I have been using 47.5 grains without any problem and it works great for me.

Thanks Owensby. The bore in mine was very rough before the grooves were cut. I polished it some but it could use a lot more. I have been shooting 5744 and it works but I am a 4759 fan so I might switch to that this spring.

Although I can offer you no help with your situation, I will say this. I am planning on buying a 10ML-11 as well in SST/LAM in the not to distant future and have been resurching the living he## out of 10ML-IIs. If its any comfort I must tell you after reading litterally 100s and 100s of posts at websites spacifically dedicated to the 10ML-II, Ive not read a single one detailing ANY problems with 10ML-II as bad as yours, and very few of any kind at that.

I at present own a 209x50 Encore but am sick to death of all of the head aches of hunting with it in the rain or snow as it is the blued steel model.

Fairchase you are absolutely right. Trouble is that sometimes a man gets to reading these threads on the net and gets all excited. The temptation of a new inline rifle got the best of me. Still you are right. A man got no business going hunting with a rifle not fired but the day before. One can't forget that others watch and use you as an example. Maybe my work schedule won't be as demanding of my spare time in years to come and more powder will burn in summer. D

D Hunter,
It takes a man to admit a mistake...best of luck to you

Savage 99

It really depends on the rifle barrel, each one is a little bit different.

Try Barnes 245 grain Spit Fires, 50 caliber with the yellow sabots. Usually they seat much easier than the MMP's or Hornady 250 SST's.

But in my ML-10 it is just the opposite, the Barnes are very hard to seat. I believe a run through of the barrel with a patch damp with break free or WD40, afte a few shots, then a dry patch will make them esasier to load. I also think the workout with the bore paste helps things out.

Want the best knowledge about the ML-10 try Dougs Message Boards... Look under savage Muzzle Loading Forum..

Tell em PAHunter sent ya...

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi#muzzleloader

Reagrds.... Jim P.

PA good info there but they won't let me register. Something about an activation number they assign. The number they give me spits me out as invalid activation number. I have tried several times now. No luck. Guess I will just have to lurk there.
Another question about the JB treatment. How do you keep the JB paste out of the threads for the breech plug? Or alternatively how do you get it all out once the treatment is complete? D

Another question about the JB paste treatments. How do you keep the JB out of the breech plug threads or alternatively how do you get it all out of them after the treatment is complete? Thanks. "D"

D, don't worry about the threads. As long as you get close to 'em that's good enough, 'cause right up aginst the threads is where your charge will sit and it dosen't need to be done there. Make sense? also, extra JB slop is going to go just about everywhere so you'll have to completely clean the whole barrel to get all the grit out. BTW if you need more grit, fine auto valve lapping compound works well too.

D there are tons of options out there as far as other sabots and slugs I would try more that just the SST's, but here's one other thought... instead of lapping just fire 100 or so conicals in that new barrel and you may be pleasently suprised afterwards. I've even heard of people putting paste on the bullets and 'fire lapping' but I have no experience with that method.

D

Just leave your plug in when you lap, then when you get done lapping remove the plug and push some clean or solvent dampened patches from the rear foward to push the gunk out. Works like a charm and gives you a definite stopping point as well as keep the dang threads from jerking the patch off of the jag.

I always lube a patch thoroughly w/ the JB and run it back and forth the length of the barrel for about 30-50 strokes until the patch gives out and then get a new patch w/ JB and go at it again until I've done about 150-200 round trips. Pull the plug and clean and she'll be shining like a mirror.

Good Luck

Reloader

Fellows I know this had to be some freak accident but look at this 300 yd target two bullets in one hole at 300 yds with a savage.One of these was with a sst using their sabot and the other is with sst and a harvester sabot.
I don't have a problem getting the supplied sabots with the sst's down the barrel but the harvester went down much easier.

The bottom group is 250 xtp and havester sabots.think I pulled the number one shot a little.But still a good group for 300 yds.

How high is this shooting at 100?

There is the right forum for technic questions on the Smokleless Savage.

http://dougva.proboards34.com/index.cgi?board=Savage

....................................Gerald..../

Roscoe,I use a burris blisti-plex scope 3x12 and the cross hairs are dead on at 100,first mark on at 200 and second on at 300.

Yep go to Dougs,,,,,

I shoot one hole groups at 100 , lotsa fun and i took a real nice buck this year at 100 yards or so using the 250SST and 4759. Glad you didn't hurt your gun or yourself not seating the bullet, I have found a tighter fit is better.

PPosey,are you shooting the old lot number of the 4759 or the new in the lb. plastic jar.My supplies have dried up with the old in the 8 oz metal cans and have had to go to the plastic jar and havening problems with it.Or my chrony is lying one.I cannot get near the speeds I was getting with the old,have been to the range to test 2 times now both times and 3 different rifles the speed is way off.Going to get my shooting buddy to check them over his chrony maybe next week and see if he gets the same.
Been shooting the 4759 for 3 years now and really liked it.

Owensby,

I haven't run out yet but, I only have one can left myself. I think I'm gonna hit the local shops and see if I can hoard some more.

Have a Good One

Reloader

I have the plastic bottles, never used the old,,,I converted over from 4227 last year....

Have you checked any loads for speed with the plastic jar.Would like to check someone else's with what I have gotten to see if both are close.
What grains are you using??My best is 47.5 with a 250 sst.