I've noticed that it is harder and harder to find 45 caliber ML components. Not impossible, just no where near as common as 50 cal.

I am wondering why? Is there a reason to not go with a 45 Cal?? I seemed to like the idea of a smaller diameter bullet for personal taste reasons, but is there some other reason that the 50 is so dominant?

I've got a 45 cal barrel for my Encore, been thinking about slapping it on there and shooting it a bit.....

For a couple of years they were all the rage...then died off hard and fast some say it was because of some of the state regulations that require a min. of .50 cal others say it was just popularity.

I bought a Knight .45 cal disk elite stainless with a clean barrel (( no sights )) realy cheap at a local store that was selling them on clearance.

I was told by the store cleark that there were many states that my gun could not be used because of the .45 cal. bore and that it was a scoped rifle.

When you put that .45 cal barrel on your rifle shoot the Hornady 200 grn SST bullet and you won't be unhappy I'm sure.

Regulations are the reason for me. Indiana states .45 cal minimum for the bullet. To use a 45 you'd have to use something like a Maxi-ball, no sabots.

I shoot a 40 cal bullet in my 50 cal Encore. I order my sabots from www.prbullet.com and then shoot 10mm or 40 cal Hornady XTP's. Alot of cheaper shooting this way. I usually get several hundred at a time. Check em out. God Bless, Louis

I use a 45 cal Omega and I'm happy with it. I would have preferred a 50 cal when I bought mine, but they were in short supply and the 45 cal was available.

I've taken deer from a field dressed weight ~100lb doe to a really nice ~200lb eight pointer and several in the ~130 - 140lb class and find no faults.

JPK

Thought about the regs, I am confident that a lot of folks think they are compying with the '.50' rule when they are using a 50 caliber saboted bullet, that is probably 45 cal.

I like the idea of the .40 in a .50 sabot, I will check into that.

I'm about to buy a new ML'er and I've been trying to decide why not go with a .45......

Well, got mine because I wanted the best ballistics legally available for my state at the time. Settled on a stainless T/C Omega .45 cal. Ended up shooting PR Dead Center sabots (195 gr .357 bullets). A bunch of target shooting and deer later, I made the right choice. You really want to know the sad part??? Look into legal rifle calibers in states limiting muzzleloader projectiles. The Colorado division of wildlife is full of Sh!t (you're allowed to use a .24 caliber with an 85 grain bullet for elk, but no .45 caliber muzzleloader? WTF!), And every other state that bans .45s for muzzleloader season can join them! Check out ballistics, and get back with me... Set your limits based on bullet weight and velocity (hmmm... same units used for kinetic energy - shocker there!) Reallistically, there's nothing on this planet that I wouldn't pursue with a .45 muzzleloader (and the proper bullet). Nothing short of a darn big grizzly (or Alaskan Brown Bear - same species, different diet) would cause hesitation on this continent (North America). If you can legally use them, they work - plain and simple. It's politicians with no experience making these rules - what do you expect...

gd

I agree with minimum bullet weight. My 45 is a 1-18 twist. I shoot 385 gr 45-70 bullets. Now I can shoot that bullet out of a 45-70 and it is legal for any animal in north america. My load is 80 gr of Pyrodex P a Paper patched 385 gr bullet. I get a speed of 1458 and that is over 1800 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle. It still has over 1000 foot pounds at 200 yards. My ML is every bit as powerful as the 45-70.
This gun and load is only legal for deer, and antelope in Idaho. That load has more energy than a 50 cal with a PRB, but the PRB is legal for elk. That pi$$es me off. Ron

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:

I'm about to buy a new ML'er and I've been trying to decide why not go with a .45......

I'd look at bullet selection also. Don't know what's out there for the .45 but for the .50 you have a pretty large selection of bullet/powder combinations to choose from.

I've killed a fair number of deer with a .45 also. One of the best groups I've seen by any gun was out of a T/C Cherokee shooting 70 grs of FFFG black powder and a Maxi-ball.

Just get an Encore with both the 45 and 50 cal barrels and be happy.

Dan, I like your thinking, I do have a 45 barrel for and Encore frame, don't know if it will work with the new Endeavor or not, but will figure that out.

Like a lot of times, the Guvmnet is so far out of touch with reality, that ridiculous regs. ensue.....I can't imagine there is too much differnce in killling effectiveness between a 50 and a 45.

I am looking for what shoots best (most accurately) day in and day out. Flat shooting counts for a bit to me also.

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
I am looking for what shoots best (most accurately) day in and day out. Flat shooting counts for a bit to me also.

Then maybe you missed this.

That combo shoots sub MOA @ 100 yd out of my Encore.

Dan, good shooting. Have you matched up the drop in that combo vs a 250 gr pill?

I've actually thought about going to the saboted .357 195 grainers like GD, that's plenty of weight for anything I hunt, and should be very flat shooting, as well as penetrate better IMO.

Fish, I don't know how well the Encore shoots conicals, but I cast a 45-caliber conical of ~425 grains for my .451 Whites. With a scope, at 100 yards, my son put three of them into an area you could cover with a quarter. (The mould is the Lyman Whitworth, if you roll your own, and I shoot them unsized, lubed with my own version of Emmert lube.) I don't think there is anything on the NA continent that would walk away from that bullet, if put where it is supposed to go.

I have the T/C Omega in .45. The accuracy has always been dissapointing, no matter the powder or the bullet, iron sights or scoped. Probably the Dead Centers from Cabelas have been the best. The pattern is totally inconsistent with everything---and I zero with a 100 yard target.

A good friend shoots a .45 for about 90% of his muzzleloader hunting, which is mostly how he hunts big game these days. He has a custom built gun and shoots hand cast 495 grain bullets. He's had fantastic success with this rifle, taking much game including an Alaskan Brown Bear that for a long time was the #1 bear in the Long Hunter Society record book.

I won a CVA Firebolt in a gun club raffle. It came with both .45 and .50 caliber barrels. I liked the .45 so much, I never bothered mounting the .50 barrel. Having the option of using 3 Pyrodex or Triple 7 pellets (a so-called magnum load) means I can send a 180gr tipped, saboted bullet ~2400 fps. I don't need bigger or faster.

However, when talking flintlocks and using traditional pure lead round balls, I use a .54 caliber. That ball is ~180 grains also, but with much less oomph behind it compared to the CVA inline. A 45 caliber flintlock or caplock might work fine on those smallish whitetails found in Dixie, but might be undergunned for 200# plus bucks found in the northern deer woods. Perhaps that's why some states have regulated the 45's out of existence for big game hunting.

To my knowledge, there was no muzzleloading pied-piper touting the 50 caliber as the be-all, end-all, like O'Conner was for the 270Win.

Most of my deer hunting in gun season when I lived in Ohio was with a PRB and a .45 flinter. I was told time and time again it was too small but deer hit with it never went anywhere and it didn't matter what size they were. Many over 250# fell to it. My best shot dropped one in it's tracks at 100 yd's. I love the .45 and would trust it anywhere. I owned .50's and have a .54 Hawken I built but can't say they kill any faster.
The problem today is the sabot with sub caliber bullets. They are changing the face of primitive seasons. They are also changing game laws.
All of those searching to turn a muzzle loader into a long range high power rifle are making their own beds and have to lay in it. The problem is that it is affecting the traditional hunter too.
Personally, I will not own anything but a RB rifle. I would rather hunt and accept the fact my range is limited and deer must walk away instead of me needing something to kill them all.
I bow hunt and have sold all of my high power rifles so I can only hunt gun season with revolvers. I killed 5 this last season with 5 shots and never felt under gunned or under bowed.
My opinion is that inlines and scopes should only be allowed in regular gun season.
I can hear the screams now!

I agree with a lot with bfrshooter's post. I hunt with both a flinter and a modern in-liner. But the natural progression of the inliners is what is happening in Ms. & La., that is "primitive black powder cartridges" ie .45/70s etc. replacing the muzzleloaders, in the prmitive season. After all they are ballistically simular and one is about as good as the other for the first shot. If you want an inexpensive muzzleloader go to a gunshow in Ms. & La.

Bfrshooter no hollering from me, I will make a concerted effort next season to hunt more with the rock-lock.

quote:

My opinion is that inlines and scopes should only be allowed in regular gun season.

We are all entitled to our own opinions. I would only offer this: do a Google search for the Pauley in-line design and see when it was invented. It is NOT, I repeat, NOT a new design.

Now, having prefaced my comments as above, I do believe that muzzleloaders should only shoot black or substitutes, not smokeless powder. And I am iffy on the use of scopes. I shoot much better with scopes than with irons on my muzzleloaders, so I am preferential to scopes. But I can see the argument for factory irons only...

Finally, I believe that a mz season should require the use of lead bullets only, with a dimension no smaller than .010" smaller than groove diameter. That is what Idaho does, and it accomplishes two things: cuts out saboted bullets, and allows the hunter to shoot either conicals or patched round balls. Makes sense to me...

I'm glad the last three posters don't live around me. Not because of their beliefs per say, I could care less if they liked chasing deer around with a stick with a nail in it. But their willingness to make me conform to their idea of what's right, that I have a problem with.

quote:

Originally posted by Dan42:
I'm glad the last three posters don't live around me. Not because of their beliefs per say, I could care less if they liked chasing deer around with a stick with a nail in it. But their willingness to make me conform to their idea of what's right, that I have a problem with.

Hey, your not able to use a centerfire rifle during black powder or muzzle loading season, so your conforming to someone's idea of what's right.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Dan42:
I'm glad the last three posters don't live around me. Not because of their beliefs per say, I could care less if they liked chasing deer around with a stick with a nail in it. But their willingness to make me conform to their idea of what's right, that I have a problem with.

I don't care what you hunt with if it's legal where you hunt. I just plan to spend more time with my rock-lock, because I believe it's the essence of what muzzleloading is about. Do your thing, I don't care, just don't be too suprised when your primitive season includes single shot cartridge arms one day, as it is the logical progression of where these "primitive seasons" are headed.

I have no problem with the inline per say, just the long range bullets in the sabot. When I hunted Ohio, only shotguns and muzzle loaders were allowed. Muzzle loaders because they did not shoot far in the heavily populated and flat areas. But to keep increasing range also increases danger in areas that were specified for short range guns. High power rifles are not allowed for a reason and to keep pushing the inline to greater ranges will eventually have the game departments put a stop to them and they might take all the muzzle loaders out with them.
The only reason for an inline and sabot's is to gain an advantage that is already there in areas that allow high powered rifles. But they are an unfair and unsafe advantage in shotgun areas.
Too many say they can't get close enough because of terrain and need to shoot far, funny that a good archer can still kill deer there! So can a good hunter with a flinter.
I have no problem with a low power scope or red dot on any muzzle loader for us old coots with poor eyesight but when used to extend range to 200 yd's in a primitive season, it is wrong.
Mark my words, the day will come when things will change.
There is always the element of gaining an advantage and also the element of greed involved when there are so many other seasons for long range guns.
States that have a muzzle loader season before rifle season will have the most inlines being used, why is that? Is it greed?

quote:

But their willingness to make me conform to their idea of what's right, that I have a problem with.

Where in the world did I try to make you conform to "my idea of what's right"? For a new member, you certainly don't read well. I very clearly stated my opinion, and nothing more.

It is also my opinion that there is not enough energy in a round ball, regardless of what it is fired from, to humanely kill a whitetail deer at the ranges I typically take them here in Texas. That is my opinion, and it is worth exactly what you paid for it. Am I trying to force you to shoot a modern mz? Not at all... It is just my opinion. I am certain you have some that I would not agree with.

And finally, I don't bow hunt, because I don't have enough faith in my own abilities to put an arrow exactly where it needs to go. Does that mean I am going to snub the archers who visit this site? Nope. Not at all. It just means I have enough respect for the animal to want to harvest cleanly, I hate losing/wasting a game animal, and I do all I can to ensure I am able to retrieve what I shoot. It is called limiting variables.

Have I explained myself? I hope so.

Doubless, Those are my feelings, I just express my opinion and am not trying to change anyone. I really don't care what a guy hunts with, that is a personal choice. Some guys want the super, duper ultra mag and others are happy with a 30-30.
My only concern is the advances are taking the muzzle loader into the high power rifle range and will eventually cause changes in hunting laws.
There has been a lot of friction over the years with archery equipment too. First the compound made some angry, then the crossbow started a firestorm. But when you look at all of it, you find range has not changed when hunting.
What started as a primitive season has a name change in many states, they now call it muzzle loader season soon to blend into just gun season.
My conversion came after killing a few deer with rifles. I sat looking out at the fields and hills and came to the conclusion that a deer anywhere in sight was dead. I can do that with chucks or cans. I sold the rifles. I spent many, many seasons hunting with a flinter in rifle season and always got my deer and for quite a few years I kill more deer then my neighbors and I can use just with a bow or revolvers. I got 5 last season and between three of us we killed 10 deer with 10 shots without a rifle between us. I don't even hunt muzzle loader season any more, I can't use any more deer!
So, use your inline, I only tell you how I feel about them from my point of view.
Everyone here should be able to express their feelings without the intent of converting anyone else. I hope you see my point that I like to be close to my deer. Also we have a LOT of deer, some of you live where they are too few. Use the gun you need.

BFR, you and I are on the same page. We have agreed to disagree in the past, but this time I respect your opinions. My response was directed at another poster.

You have probably shot more deer than I have ever looked at. I have lost a few deer (less than the number of fingers on one hand) and it bothers me every time I do it. I therefore have decided to do what it takes to limit that happening again. I also have almost completely put up my centerfire rifles.

I hunt more for my father than I do for myself. I love venison, but have finally become mature enough to where I don't have to kill something to have a great time in the woods. I was in Idaho for eight days Thanksgiving week and passed up numerous small mule deer bucks. They weren't what I was looking for. This is the second time. I was there in 2000 and looked at a 22" 3X4 three different times, and I was carrying a 7 Mag. That deer was as good as dead, and I walked away from him. He was not what I was looking for...

If you re-read my post, you will probably understand that I too was just voicing opinion. I will continue to hunt with my in-lines and conicals, because I believe that is the best choice for me. No one else, just me.

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:

quote:

But their willingness to make me conform to their idea of what's right, that I have a problem with.

Where in the world did I try to make you conform to "my idea of what's right"?

"Finally, I believe that a mz season should require the use of lead bullets only,"

Sorry, I guess I misunderstood the above statement.

quote:

If you re-read my post, you will probably understand that I too was just voicing opinion. I will continue to hunt with my in-lines and conicals, because I believe that is the best choice for me. No one else, just me.

I know you were. I just had to tell everyone that I was not ranting or putting anyone down. I do have those worries about law changes. However we all love what we do and how we do it and most important we are gun owners and hunters.
I hope that in the tough years to come, every one of you belongs to the NRA too. If not, please join.

Fish30114

Be careful how fast you push those 357 bullets if you use them.Alot of pistol bullets dont hold up well when you load your muzzleloader on the upper end.

Some areas of Cal. are already required to use other than lead bullets.

Michigans law for muzzle loaders is 45 cal or more. If it is the projecttile then a 357 dia bullet is not legal. If it is just the bore then your safe with a 357dia bullet. It isn't in the 2008 hunting and trapping guide that I can see.

Al

So... whut haz we desidud?

Richard, I will hunt with a 45-caliber Mz as long as they are allowed... That is what I have decided, at least!

UC, I am going to try my .45 cal barrel on my Encore with the 'standard' saboted bullets, whatever cal they may be from Hornady, Barnes, TC or whomever and see how she shoots.

At the end of a trail of a pretty long hunt, I got my current 50 cal to shoot really well, but with only one bullet, the Hornady's from last year and the TC's which shot so well, just wouldn't shoot again, the Barnes all copper saboted 250 (same weight) shot fantastically....go figure.

I was looking around at ML'ers on the net, and found this Remington Based rig, what say ya'll on this thing Ultimate Firearms

Interesting for sure, but supports some of these 'let's not get out of hand with the range' positions, and I think these arguments have merit.

I am seriously however considering the conversion from Precision Firearms that lets you prime your Encore with 25 ACP cases with Small Rifle primers, they modify your breech plug to accept the 25 ACP cases.......

quote:

Originally posted by Fish30114:
Dan, good shooting. Have you matched up the drop in that combo vs a 250 gr pill?

No I haven't. To tell the truth my Encore doesn't seem to like any 250 gr bullet I've tried. Now granted that was with 777, I haven't tried any of them with the Blackhorn.

The thing is I've hunted whitetails with a MZ for 25+ years and tried about every combination of bullet/powder. The 300 gr TMZ with Harvester sabots load two finger easy, the Blackhorn doesn't need cleaned between shots, nor does it require cleaning right after use, and I shoot 1" groups at 100 yrds. I don't see me doing to much experimenting at this point.

quote:

Originally posted by Dan42:



The 300 gr TMZ with Harvester sabots load two finger easy, the Blackhorn doesn't need cleaned between shots, nor does it require cleaning right after use, and I shoot 1" groups at 100 yrds. I don't see me doing to much experimenting at this point.

And I don't blame you!

quote:

Originally posted by plainview:
I have the T/C Omega in .45. The accuracy has always been dissapointing, no matter the powder or the bullet, iron sights or scoped. Probably the Dead Centers from Cabelas have been the best. The pattern is totally inconsistent with everything---and I zero with a 100 yard target.

Plainview,

My Omega 45 cal and my son's 50 cal both shoot very well. But if yours is giving you trouble, take a look at the thread on Omegas. Some fellows who had issues like your cut off the portion of the barrel from muzzle to rifling and recrowned. Apparently that groove diameter section, intended to ease loading, is called the QLA, or quick load accurizer, and doesn't always work as promised. Some of those fellows think it might be off center or angled.

Hope this helps.

JPK

Thanks JPK---I will look into that.

I really liike the .45 cal ML,,,, paid alot extra to put a .45 pacnor barrel on my ML2 and couldn't be happier

I live in texas where anything centerfire is legal on a deer and I REALLY like my homebuilt .36 caliber front stuffer.

Make some molds of various boolits. Go see what shoots and won't don't with your rifle and a deer whacked with a .45 ain't gonna tell the difference if it was .45 or .50 in the boiler room.

It basially devolves around how much energy you are willing to spend shooting something a "bit" oddball vs buying stuff to go hunting with in the mail. Lead furnace and a set of molds really costs almost nothing if you figure you're gonna live long enough to keep shooting.

Blackpowder, I shoot .45 or .50 pistol and I like .36 "squirrel rifles".

My thrupence,
PM

Spose it all sepends on hom much free time you want and whether or not yer single at the time :-)

Fish - .45 RB's do a wonderful job on deer within 100yards, even our big muley's. Buddy of mine uses his longrifle every year. He tried the REAL bullets, but received pretty much idential penetration and effect with them, so went back to round balls. He lung shots his deer.