Perhaps you're missing the point a bit. Now, if your state has 7000 deer tags, it probably doesn't matter because with that many tags available everybody is going to have one anyway, but in most places there aren't near that many. I really have nothing against the technology of the in-lines, but there is principle; the special BP seasons were made to give the BP shooters a chance to hunt when the CF guys weren't out. They needed the advantage of no orange, which simply wasn't realistic in CF season. They needed the advantage of the animals calm because they had to sneak closer. The modern in-lines came along and illiminated those needs. It thus becomes questionable as to whether a seperate season is justifiable. You talk about the 1st or 2nd season and not spending your money to you get a 2nd season tag. It is you who decides which season you apply for. If you prefer the 1st season, why would you apply for the 2nd season? If I had 2 to choose from, I would sure apply for the one I wanted, not the other. That would be like me, a total non-archer, applying for an archery tag. I get drawn, don't bow hunt, so my season is wasted on a tag I'd never use? Oh, I can say I had a tag this year, but I never hunted? That doesn't make sense. I've noticed you attack the bird hunters pretty bad about making the deer wild. I suppose it could be, but I've not noticed such. The shotgunners aren't shooting at the deer, why do they get so wild? A few more hunters in the field, yes, but it's not like most shogun hunting is in prime deer habitat. The point is that if the BP hunters want to retain this special season, and remember, every BP tag is a tag that some CF hunter doesn't get, then they had better retain a real justification for the special season, i.e. the disadvantages of BP. If they have all the advantages of a CF hunter, then those CF boys are going to squawl about the justification, and enough squawling and the law will be changed and no more special BP season. You can bet that every CF hunter with no tag is looking negatively at every guy with a muzzleloader tag or an archery tag, because if they hadn't allocated it to that special season, they (the unsuccessful CF guy) might have gotten the tag. If the BP season is limited to "traditional" methods requiring extra skills and effort, the CF guy is going to be more open to accepting some tags being allocated to it, but when the newer in-lines with scopes and sabot bullets start eliminating the extra challenge, he is going to become less and less supportive of the special season, because he sees those tags going there that lower his chance of drawing. I'm not even a muzzleloader hunter, but I think you guys need to consider this. It's like shooting yourselves in the foot--you are going to kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Lots of us CF guys are supportive of you BP hunters when you use the old traditional approach, but you are loosing our support with the modern stuff. We're becoming less accepting of loosing tags to you guys. If too many of us get to feeling that way and start putting enough preasure on the G&F boys, either your special season will be eliminated, or at least the length and/or number of tags reduced. I suggest there is some food for thought there.

dannobone im thinken old davy would of used a ak-47 or a browning 50 machine gun if he had it,but he didnt.Im not knocking anyone who shoots a modern inline for i used to for many years,but i have found a greater joy in the traditional type guns with round balls for ammo.thats my preferance these days and i enjoy them more ever day.I find myself maken a couple of powder horns and cuting patches and tinkering with my guns more than ever.
I have never even seen anybody else out hunten when i was muzzle loader hunten,except for some clods on snowmachines,thats another story,anyway ways it dont matter what you hunt with as long as it makes you happy.thats what it is all about.choose a path and take it is the way i look at it.

Seriously, just asking a question. I just saw an ad for Hornady's SST Sabot and powder pellets. My question is this: Does using this product along with a modern BP rifle defeat the purpose of a muzzleloader? The old timers at the range all cast their own bullets, fiddle with various "Fs" or Swiss BP, ram the bullet down with horn-handled rods etc.



This to me seems more in keeping with the muzzleloading traditions. I just don't see how plastic tipped bullets can be part of that scene.



Let me reiterate: When it comes to muzzleloading I'm just an ignorant punk looking to learn more about this aspect of my all-consuming hobby. I'm not looking to stir up trouble. Your comments on this subject will be much appreciated.



(((Oops, I didn't even look through the other posts before entering this one. Looks like this topic has been thoroughly discussed already. I'll leave it up anyway.)))

Gonzo -

Ask yourself this, "If Davey Crockett had the option of
speed loaders and SST's at the Alamo, would he have used
them?"

Only until recently, throughout history, men (as in the
species) have grabbed onto the next best thing to come
along. As soon as rifling was invented in this country,
rifles were sold like hot-cakes. By the time of the Civil
War, conicals were much preferred over ball-'n-patch. Had
plastic been available back then incorporated into sabots
and a pointed covering for hollow points, can any reasonable
person actually conclude they would have opted for their
"traditional methods" instead?

I don't knock those who cast their own bullets (I used to
cast my own minnie-balls), those who prefer to use
sidelocks, or use real black powder. But Gonzo, please
don't take up the "traditionalist's attitude" that what
you now may be thinking is right should be forced on all
the rest of us. That isn't right, and you'll eventually
lose the battle. With the growing popularity of inlines
and ever more efficient bullets, the "traditionalists" are
already grossly outnumbered. And its doubtful that any of
you care to have the rest of us force our modern values
on you like so many of you have attempted to do so with us.
Correct?

There's room in the hunting world for all of us.

as long as you do what makes you happy go for it but never try to force your belifes on others let them make up there owen minds

To each his own. I like the sidelock rifles, and the extra challenge of using round balls and getting close. If I was hunting for my servival I might think differantly, but as it is, the hunt is what is important, not the kill. That is just how I look at it.

I might well be the poster-child for the "don't force your beliefs" school of thought. The goal was to guage opinions. I don't own BP rifles, fancy modern or ancient. I tried to explain from the very beginning that I was merely looking for mroe information, not starting a movement to ban technological development in muzzleloading.

Your input is appreciated, especially because you make some very good points. That is until you start incorrectly accusing me: But Gonzo, please...

Maybe this argument gets you too excited to read rationally, whatever. Good shooting, whatever you're pulling the trigger on.

Gonzo,

I understand your question and your intentions but here is your quote This to me seems more in keeping with the muzzleloading traditions. I just don't see how plastic tipped bullets can be part of that scene.

Now Danno may have jumped the gun a little but taken literally you did state an opinion here. I am afraid this might become a sort of Compound vs. Recurve sort of fight in the muzzle loading scene. Of course as is the case with most stuff, I can remember Turner Kirkland selling nitrated flash paper back in the late 60's-early 70's that you were to make up your own little cones that you glued to a bullet and filled with powder. Of course he was just reproducing stuff that was around in the 1800's, so this really is nothing new. Other than I bet that plastic gizmo is patented.

To me, I have known one person in 30+ of muzzle loading that had a charge of powder go off while he was loading after a previous shot. Remote as the case may be that will be enough reason for me to keep the powder charge and the projectile loading separate procedures! It also may be the reason I get a Savage and try smokeless too, though here in Illinois smokeless isn't an acceptable component during ML season.

How about there are "traditionalsts", modern muzzleoading hunters out for an extra season and those of us that are neutral.
I wish they would split modern off and give them time separate from traditional seasons because the modern muzzleloader is nothing but a center fire rifle burning some black powder replica made to be as little like blackpowder as possible. The very brag (advertising points)of refinements of all of the modern muzzleloaders are the issues that traditionalist accept as part of "The Hunt".

I have and shoot both styles, but for enjoyment I prefer my sidelock cap guns even though they are NOWHERE as accurate as my cheap inline!

Of those that I have been around that shoot modern guns typically are hunters that enjoy the extra seasons that the other gun allows.

To each there own.

LouisB

Yes, I realize that cap gun is way too modern for some!

I can see how that quote is inflammatory, maybe I didn't fully understand how much until your reply. Lesson learned, I should be more careful.

I meant no harm or insult. I think it might, in small part, be due to the old guys at the range always telling me:
Real men shoot BP.
What's that plastic contraption?
You shoot pretty good, even with that loudnboomer.

All this in joking, they're all great guys and are always willing to educate me on the old school ways.

I think Hawky's idea can be carried forth by the tagline of one of the posters here at AccurateReloading . . .

'I hunt, not to kill, but not to have played golf'

I have to butcher it in paraphrase, but hopefully the point of the quote gets across!

lb

Hawky, I side with you. The hunt is the reason. That is why I stay with traditional, archery and revolvers for deer. But I have nothing against the inlines or anyone that uses them. Even these are evolving into easier to use guns. Outside hammers, easy to reach priming systems----sound familiar?

I suppose that it depends on how far you want to take things. I have used a hawken percussion for about 25 years, on and off. I have a black powder sxs that I occasionally take out quail hunting.

I know of people who claim that if it isn't a flintlock, then it isn't really authentic. The question becomes at what period is it authentic? Do you have to shoot a match-lock to be authentic? I personally don't care for the in-line guns.

In truth, I am glad the in-lines are around. It has proved a boon black powder shooting. There are all sorts of folks who want nothing to do with powder horns, patches, etc. But they will use an in-line with no problem.

Anything that brings more hunters back into the sport, I view as good thing.

Pete

Gonzo,

If you want to shoot in a traditional muzzleloader contest, you should use the guns and bullets of that era. And there's nothing wrong with that.

But if you want to hunt with a new inline and the newest style bullets and powder for them, there's nothing wrong with that.

That's why we live in America..........so we can make our decisions about what we want to shoot.

Gonzo,

Clearly you've read the previous thread on this product (which I started). People get really, really ticked off. You'd think one side or the other was going to cook the other side's first born in front of them. The "in-line supporters" think the "traditionalists" want for them to quit hunting and the "traditionalists" think that the "in-line supporters" want to kill everything that walks. Every argument in the world has been used by both sides without effect on the other side. Sadly, you've now seen that vitriol.