Just started to shoot my new to me 50 caliber Knight Disc Elite. I was really suprised that neither the 250gr T/C Shockwaves or 45-300 XTP Mag from Hornady were able to be loaded in this rifle. In fact a lot of combos were really tight compared to my Omega.
Is anyones experience with Knights the same, and if so what sabots can replace the ones supplied with the bullets?

I had similar experience with knight rifles.Even the knight bullets I had were a tight fit.You may have to expirement to find a good fit.I have been told the powerbelt bullets are a little smaller than some,and easier to load.

the short black harvester sabots fit looser, they may be worth a try in your gun.

Try Barnes, my elite likes 'em

I have the 45 cal elite and a tip I can give all who shoot sabots is mark yor rifleing on the muzzle of the barrel with a sharpie marker and when you load always line up the four slits of the sabot with 4 lands of rifleing and it will load nearly 50% easier every time.

Have you tried the yellow easy load sabots?

I have several you can have if you want to try em. I usually just chunk them in my MLer bag and use HPH12s with all of the .452 bullets in my Omega, Knight, and Savage.

Reloader

Easy way around too-tight sabots with pistol bullets is to get a good ML barrel (gun to match) and use patched round balls.

quote:

Originally posted by Daryl S.:
Easy way around too-tight sabots with pistol bullets is to get a good ML barrel (gun to match) and use patched round balls.

If your saying he doesn't have a good gun you are FOS.

Ted-

I don't think Daryl is in any way full of shit.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Daryl S.:
Easy way around too-tight sabots with pistol bullets is to get a good ML barrel (gun to match) and use patched round balls.

If your saying he doesn't have a good gun you are FOS.

My sense is that he's making the suggestion to ditch the sub-caliber projectile business and graduate to a high-quality large-bore roundball rifle!
With proper powder charges trajectories are flat and the roundball are devastating to game, even very large game such as elk and moose.

His suggestion maintains the elementary baseline of starting with good equipment, and I didn't see him making any evaluations of the quality of Massman's rifle.


By the way, I second Daryl's suggestion.
Try a larger bore rifle and run roundball and black powder.
That particular route is much more elegant, and it very much simplifies the effort to develop a smashingly successful hunting rifle load!



Cheers
Tinker

Spot-on, Tinker.

With a round ball gun, there is no problem with fouling buildup - round balls in small calibres, .45 and .50, kill as well or better than pistol bullets in the smaller bores for light big gme, and are vastly superior in the larger calibres for heavier beasts including moose, elk, grizzlies, coastal or inland.

quote:

and are vastly superior in the larger calibres for heavier beasts including moose, elk, grizzlies, coastal or inland.

Huh? How do you figure? Those things lose energy like a thrown brick, and round doesn't penetrate for squat compared to a heavy conical.

Doubtless-


Although a .670" roundball (453gr of pure lead) driven at 1500fpsMV is point-blank (plus or minus 2" of POA) ONLY to 100 yards on a fixed sight, and it's ONLY going 1000fps as it crosses that 100yd line, -- it has tremendous killing power
The smaller they are, the harder you need to drive them out of the muzzle for good down-range energy and trajectory.
Roundball in the 16-14 bore size are manageable in the 1500-1600fpsMV launch speed and hold their energy quite well.

Foot-Pounds Energy at impact is not the only thing to broker into your ballistic budget.

Daryl will chime in here, and hopefully he'll share with us some of his big game hunting experience from up in Alaska, where very large big-game is the norm.

Big roundball kill game very very well - and the rifles are easy to load/run/maintain.

Roundball penetrate very nicely, and in a straight line, very reliably - when driven at appropriate velocity.
They don't fail to expand (coming out of the muzzle at .670" or so they don't need to expand!), they don't steer off-course when they hit hard parts (as conicals can and often do), and they produce nasty wound-channels (naturally!).

Furthermore, big roundball and the rifles that run them are a great alternative route to sub-caliber pistol bullets.
Building/handling/owning/shooting these 'medium-bore' rifles as they were considered in the 19th century can be very rewarding - I have an absolute hoot with my 16bore and 20bore double rifles.
I highly suggest giving them a test drive. You may never go back to powder pellets and plastic bullet-shoes!



Cheers
Tinker

quote:

I highly suggest giving them a test drive. You may never go back to powder pellets and plastic bullet-shoes!

I respect your well-educated opinion, but my note specifically called out conicals... I don't shoot plastic and I don't use pellets; I played with saboted bullets when I first got into muzzleloading, but have completely gotten away from them. I cast my own heavy for caliber conical bullets for .410, .451 and .504 Whites (~400 grains for the .410 and up to 620 grains for the .504...), and am amazed at how well they perform. I don't have to fuss with pillow ticking, and I can guarantee you that these 400 to 600-grain bullets are not going to deflect inside an animal.

We will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see myself ever shooting a projectile that is almost 3/4" in diameter at anything. I don't need to. These heavy conicals do the job quite nicely...

Doubtless-

quote:

Originally posted by Doubless:
...my note specifically called out conicals...
I cast my own heavy for caliber conical bullets for .410, .451 and .504 Whites (~400 grains for the .410 and up to 620 grains for the .504...), and am amazed at how well they perform. I don't have to fuss with pillow ticking, and I can guarantee you that these 400 to 600-grain bullets are not going to deflect inside an animal.

We will just have to agree to disagree. I don't see myself ever shooting a projectile that is almost 3/4" in diameter at anything. I don't need to. These heavy conicals do the job quite nicely...

Pistol bullets are conicals (if it's not spherical ball, it's conical ball! ) - I didn't know you were making your own.
How interesting!
Another alternative to plastic shoes and pistol bullets!
Show your moulds and bullets for Massman (the original poster) to see.
What is the shape of the bullet nose?
How are you establishing a gas seal?
What alloy are you running?
What is your loading procedure?
What load/velocity are you getting with the 600-grain bullet in a Knight Disc rifle?


On shooting the .670" roundball, give it a try some time.
There's nothing wrong with those 'medium bore' rifles, and they're a hoot to shoot. The pressures are low and they tend to be very accurate - with lots of latitude on the load/altitude/weather VS accuracy and the relationship of POI/POA
I really like mine a lot.
On big roundball and Pillow Ticking, I've learned that strong denim (.020"+ thick, found at fabric store) works better and holds more lube. I carry a long rolled strip and cut at the muzzle, quick and easy.
With the lubes I use I can shoot all day (literally pounds of lead!) without cleaning.
I have a hotrod (~1800fps) .62 caliber flintlock English sporting rifle (for roundball) in the works with a Wyoming gunbuilder. Won't likely see it for another year or two, but I'm very much looking forward to getting it out in the western mountains.



Cheers
Tinker

- I didn't know you were making your own.
How interesting! I HAVE BEEN CASTING FOR HANDGUNS JUST A BIT OVER 20 YEARS; STARTED THE MZ THING A FEW YEARS BACK. HAVEN'T GOTTEN TO THE POINT OF SHOOTING LEAD OUT OF MY CF RIFLES, BUT I HAVE THE MOULDS. JUST NOT ENOUGH TIME AT PRESENT. BUT IT IS COMING!

Another alternative to plastic shoes and pistol bullets! YEP!

Show your moulds and bullets for Massman (the original poster) to see. I WILL IF I CAN FIGURE OUT HOW TO POST PICTURES ON THIS SITE.

What is the shape of the bullet nose? TYPICALLY THEY ARE SOMEWHAT ROUNDED WITH A LARGE FLAT NOSE, BUT NOT ALWAYS. HELPS WITH ENERGY TRANSFER... SOME OF THEM LOOK LIKE ELONGATED HANDGUN SWCS; I AM SHOOTING THE LYMAN WHITWORTH BULLET OUT OF MY 451 WHITES...

How are you establishing a gas seal? THE BULLET EXPANDS AND SEALS WHEN THE COLUMN OF GAS HITS THE BASE OF THE BULLET. (DON'T TELL THAT TO BFRSHOOTER... HE DOESN'T THINK YOU CAN "SWELL" A BULLET THAT WAY.)

What alloy are you running? I SHOOT PURE LEAD.

What is your loading procedure? MEASURE THE POWDER WITH A POWDER MEASURE, POUR IT IN, INSERT THE BULLET IN THE MUZZLE, SHORT START IT DOWN, AND USE THE RAMROD TO SEAT THE BULLET HARD AGAINST THE POWDER. THE RIFLES I USE ARE DESIGNED TO SHOOT SLIP-FIT BULLETS. EVERY BULLET I SHOOT OUT OF MY MZS IS SIZED .001" SMALLER THAN NOMINAL GROOVE DIAMETER. THEY ALMOST FALL DOWN THE BARREL; MOST OF THE TIME THEY CONTACT THE POWDER WITH NO MORE PRESSURE THAN THE WEIGHT OF THE RAMROD...

What load/velocity are you getting with the 600-grain bullet in a Knight Disc rifle?[/quote] NOT A KNIGHT DISC, A WHITE WHITETAIL OR WHITE SUPER 91. I WILL HAVE TO CHRONO THEM, BUT I USE 100 GRAINS (VOLUMETRIC EQUIVALENT) OF T7 FFG BEHIND THEM. RECOIL IS ROBUST, TO SAY THE LEAST!

Doubtless-

Are you cutting your own moulds for the .50 caliber?
I can help you with getting the photos up on this thread - contact me via PM and we can take that conversation off-list.


(from quote)
"...MEASURE THE POWDER WITH A POWDER MEASURE, POUR IT IN, INSERT THE BULLET IN THE MUZZLE, SHORT START IT DOWN, AND USE THE RAMROD TO SEAT THE BULLET HARD AGAINST THE POWDER. THE RIFLES I USE ARE DESIGNED TO SHOOT SLIP-FIT BULLETS. EVERY BULLET I SHOOT OUT OF MY MZS IS SIZED .001" SMALLER THAN NOMINAL GROOVE DIAMETER. THEY ALMOST FALL DOWN THE BARREL; MOST OF THE TIME THEY CONTACT THE POWDER WITH NO MORE PRESSURE THAN THE WEIGHT OF THE RAMROD..."

How do you lubricate this load?
Is there a lubed wad or a pocket of lube between the powder and the bullet?


On brisk recoil, I get what you're saying. The 16-bore with 150gr+ FFg gives a good push, but in the field I never notice it.

I wonder what the rate of twist is with the (for the original poster's interests...) Knight Disc .50Cal rifle -- and what the bore/groove numbers and rifling profile are -- essentially, would heavy/long conicals even work in such a rifle?
Although they might stabilize well enough for decent accuracy on paper AND through meat/bone for you and your rifle, will they do that if run through a Knight Disc like Massman's..?
'Over' or 'Under'-spin stabilized conicals can do all sorts of wacky things once they hit fur.

For starters, what's the bore/groove numbers, rifling profile, and rate of twist in your .50 caliber rifle that you're running that 600gr bullet through?
What animals have you hit with it?
What was the terminal path/shot placement/etc on those animals?
Hit any bones?



Cheers
Tinker

I was going to build up a slug shooting rifle for big game (deer aren't big game around here), but then picked up a marvelous little book written in India about large game shooting by Lt. James Forsyth, printed in 1862.

I then had my bro make me an English Sporting Rifle as Forsyth noted, a cheap single, for about $3,000.00.
That rifle, my friends, with it's 480gr. round ball staggers moose on impact, where they collaps and fall. The large calibre round ball guns are the ultimate in flat trajectory with superior striking force within normal hunting ranges.

As to penetration, mine are always under the hide on the off side, whether they punch through a rib or shoulder bone first. My buddy had to drop the powder charge of his 'little' Purdey Style Sporting Rifle to 120gr. just to keep a ball inside a moose.

Yeah- they penetrate just fine and with a WW alloy, they maintain their original diameter while smashing through shoulder bones.

I mentioned bullets not going in a staight line after impact & I did mention moose - we found just that with full size, short conicals shot from the various cheap 48" twist button rifled production guns. After talking the guys into using patched round balls and showing them how to load them, they started killing the moose with their .50 and .54 calibre rifles, instead of coming back to camp empty-handed and saying they'd "got slugs into 3".

I'm almost as excited over your new Sporting Rifle as you are, Tinker. They are supurb hunting rifles, without peer.

Sorry, I haven't checked this post in a while, and didn't realize that a conversation was running. I'm down to the last three days of my muzzleloading season in Massachusetts, and have to sit out today do to big winds and tree limbs falling.

Anyway, I put the Knight aside and will start again in 2010. I'm using a Renegade with Green Mtn bbl and 310 grain slugs, and my Omega.

I do have a 54 flintrock with Green Mtn BBl and if my new glasses work out may be able to use the open sights again!

Always wanted a White, but waited too long to pull the trigger.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:

quote:

Originally posted by Daryl S.:
Easy way around too-tight sabots with pistol bullets is to get a good ML barrel (gun to match) and use patched round balls.

If your saying he doesn't have a good gun you are FOS.

I normally don't post things like this, but obviously, you don't know what a quality gun looks like, that is, if you're saying he has a good quality gun, you're FOS.

His Knight Disc Elite is a top-of-the-line rifle. That is a known industy standard not just my opinion.
His rifle not being a good rifle is your opinion. You are biased.

Well anyway back to the original question,I use the easy load sabot and am satisfied with them.I also use Powerbelts.They are not as accurate as the sabot bullets,but if you are using iron sights they are good enough.Most of my shots are within 75 Yds,so that is what I am zeroed for.The 250 gr.Hornady 45 cal + Sabot goes into 1 1/2" groups at 75 and the powerbelts about 3".A Deer or Bear will never know.

quote:

Originally posted by OLBIKER:
Well anyway back to the original question,I use the easy load sabot and am satisfied with them.I also use Powerbelts.They are not as accurate as the sabot bullets,but if you are using iron sights they are good enough.Most of my shots are within 75 Yds,so that is what I am zeroed for.The 250 gr.Hornady 45 cal + Sabot goes into 1 1/2" groups at 75 and the powerbelts about 3".A Deer or Bear will never know.

Thats a good call OLBIKER, my apologies to Westernmassman for allowing myself to respond in an-off-topic rant. This will be my last reply on the topic as I have one new tip to add.

My best advise was my first post. Align your sabot grooves with your rifleing. One other tip is to run a patch of bore-butter down the bore before loading.

Good Hunting, Ted

I have the Knight because of its reputation for great accuracy at long range and have no doubt I will get a good load for it.
I have the .50 T/C Renegade with 21" Green Mtn bbl cause its a great combo for thick cover and has shot very accurately out to 100yds with slugs.
I have the .54 T/C Hawkin flinter with Green Mtn bbl because of its great accuracy for me with round balls out to 100yds. And flinters are fun!

I went to inlines because it was easier to mount a scope which I needed. I don't think they are of any advantage within 100yds for my hunting areas. Now that my new glasses allow me to use my peep sights I will probably use my T/C's on nice days and the Knight for stands with longer possibilities.

quote:

Originally posted by ted thorn:
His Knight Disc Elite is a top-of-the-line rifle. That is a known industy standard not just my opinion.
His rifle not being a good rifle is your opinion. You are biased.

And you aren't!!!!!!!!!!!

Harvester sabots made a big difference in my Encore. I now take the sabots that come with my Barns and throw them away.