This is not a small thing nor a spitting on the side walk case.

Have you read the indictment?

I haven’t, at least not yet.

How they get felonies about paying hush money is the $100,000 question.

I will post the indictment for you when I get home.

They got 34 felonies.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Have you read the indictment?

I haven’t, at least not yet.

How they get felonies about paying hush money is the $100,000 question.

It is a Felony account for every falsified business record to hide a crime.

From what I’ve heard on multiple news sources- ABC, Fox, CNN…

There is some question on the validity of the legal theory here.

From my mind- did Trump pay hush money to Daniels?

It certainly appears he paid Cohen for multiple legal expenses. I’d say yes.

Did he try and cover up a crime? That’s questionable.

Did he falsify records? Yes. Knowingly? Dunno. Trump isn’t too bright.

Now, 34 counts for essentially 1 act? Sounds like a stretch.

I have no issue with a misdemeanor count of falsifying business records… the felony (trying to hide it from the FEC? After they said no prosecution?) seems like a political stretch.

Is he a slimeball for sleeping with a porn actress? Sure.

Should he be president? No.

34 felony counts? Maybe he can get convicted of it in NYC. I doubt it will stand to appeal, but if convicted, he’s going to appeal so it’s not going to stop him from running.

You tell me, you’re a prosecutor. Doesn’t this sound like overreach?

You have no idea of it will stand up on appeal. I have even less of an idea of a jury will convict.

From what I have heard on CNN, Bloomberg, MSNBC the theory is sound. The question is did President Trump have intent.

That is a fact question for the jury.

The FEC cannot prosecute anyone nor enforce NY State Law.

Only the DOJ can prosecute federal crimes, only state prosecutors can prosecute state crimes occurring in the prosecutors jurisdiction or by appointment as special prosecutor outside the prosecutor’s district.

The FEC declined to prosecute is a very ignorant and false statement.

The 34 counts are for each of 34 business documents that were falsified to cover up the various bribes…. Slimeball….

quote:

Did he falsify records? Yes. Knowingly? Dunno. Trump isn’t too bright.

Hey, come on! He’s a very stable genius, I heard the POTUS himself say so.

Now, 34 counts for essentially 1 act? Sounds like a stretch.

Nope. Not one act, several acts. Paying off Karen McDougall, paying off the door man who knew of the illegitimate kid, and paying off Stormy Daniels - all to modify voters perceptions prior to an election. If he wasn’t running, he wouldn’t have given two shits about their claims. All were about hiding his sins in order to get elected.

The entire country, except those who don't want to, has heard trump on the phone in Georgia attempting to fix the election there. It can't be any more clear that he committed a MAJOR felony. So why hasn't he been indicted & arrested there?

The sad part for Cohen and President Trump is this whole act was unnecessary.

The Stormy Daniels matter was not going to cost President Trump one vote in 2016.

All he did was put the microscope on himself. Now, the pit is boiling and the farmer is going out for the turkey.

Dr. Butler if President Trump committed the misdemeanor, as you believe, and the financial reporting was done for the campaign benefit a felony occurred.

The question is, assuming the allegations of falsification of filings is true, did President Trump have knowledge and intent. The jury will decide.

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:
The entire country, except those who don't want to, has heard trump on the phone in Georgia attempting to fix the election there. It can't be any more clear that he committed a MAJOR felony. So why hasn't he been indicted & arrested there?

What I read was the Court’s calendar due to holidays is interrupting indictment returns.

Here we return indictments one month behind. A case that goes to the Grand Jury will be heard in a month and returned the following court session, one month later because the Judges travel between counties in the District.

Each County does not have its own judge.

Both parties have no sense of the inevitable consequences of self righteousness. Neither do a lot of posters here.

For instance, Demos supported Harry Reid’s ending of the 60 vote advice and consent for Federal judges. That stupid change quickly gave the SCOTUS a 6-3 conservative majority and the end of Roe. Pelosi’s exclusionary selection tactics in the formation of the January 6th committee will (and has) been a guide for Republicans committee chairman allowing only hapless Democrat minions on Republican investigative “fact finding“ endeavors.

Just wait. Bragg is having his Warhol moment. It won’t last forever, except in infamy. The worm will turn. Open season will soon ensue with Republican state and local prosecutors indicting anyone with whom they disagree politically and against whom they can conjure up charges. Then the pendulum will swing back never stopping at center.

Trump’s acts being worthy of prosecution or not, I wouldn’t want to be Bragg right now. Or Joe Biden. Or Anthony Fauci. Or any elected official who’s feeling smug about a local prosecutor currently tilting at national windmills.

Some things might well be left alone. Payback is an MF.

And, Mr. Donald… there’s no free sex. Disbarred Slick Willie coulda told you that.

Most of that was irrelevant to the question at hand.

Somewhat surprising to see a member of the Bench advocate not to prosecute felonies with the statement leave things alone.

If President Trump did these crimes, he can be prosecuted, and do the time.

Do not pay off extra martial affairs for campaign benefit and falsify financial records to cover it up.

While I’m certainly not an expert on campaign finance law, I think you’re mistaken. If Trump was making a payoff primarily to shield his wife from knowledge or embarrassment, it’s the John Edwards defense. Isn’t it?

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The sad part for Cohen and President Trump is this whole act was unnecessary.

The Stormy Daniels matter was not going to cost President Trump one vote in 2016.

All he did was put the microscope on himself. Now, the pit is boiling and the farmer is going out for the turkey.

Dr. Butler if President Trump committed the misdemeanor, as you believe, and the financial reporting was done for the campaign benefit a felony occurred.

The question is, assuming the allegations of falsification of filings is true, did President Trump have knowledge and intent. The jury will decide.

The intent as alleged falsification to benefit the campaign. That is the crime. The felonies is not falsification to hide from the wife.

John Edwards also went to the jury. So, the jury will decide which fact pattern is true.

Yep, you were right, the Biden Attorney General’s office declined to prosecute. They should’ve gone forward I guess. Same way with Hillary’s server and Bill Clintons perjury.

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
Yep, you were right, the Biden Attorney General’s office declined to prosecute. They should’ve gone forward I guess. Same way with Hillary’s server and Bill Clintons perjury.

Yeah after Sessions DOJ told state prosecutors yo stand down I do not care. This is New York State Law.

I am sure AG Garland would prefer not to make a Decision on a close case. To your point, the Edwards failure to secure a conviction has to be part of that decision making. The conversation revolving around, “Will the jury buy the defense argument the money was not for campaign benefit” was part of the decision making.

This assumes President Trump makes this argument.

Bragg believes he has the tangible evidence to back up Cohen establishing intent beyond a reasonable doubt. Bragg then has an obligation to seek conviction.

The indictment is posted on this sun forum. I note few have opened it. I bet consistent with what most do here fewer have read it.

Finally, I think you’re wrong about state and Federal crimes. The NY prosecutor must prove (as I understand it) a Federal crime did occur to get to the NY statute. Convoluted for sure. In other words, Bragg must prove that the federal government could’ve successfully prosecuted Trump for felonies or misdemeanors. The fact that the US DA did not prosecute is not dispositive, but probably probative.

No read the indictment. You are mistaken.

This is all based on State Law.

He has no obligation to prove a Fed crime. Whatever the Feds did or did not do is irrelevant.

The fact NY might have a Statute similar to a fed act is irrelevant.


As you know state prosecutors cannot prosecute federal crime.

He does not have to prove a Fed crime. He has to prove intent to benefit the campaign under NY state law through fraudulent filings in New York to hide the payment(s).

quote:

Originally posted by JudgeG:
Finally, I think you’re wrong about state and Federal crimes. The NY prosecutor must prove (as I understand it) a Federal crime did occur to get to the NY statute. Convoluted for sure. In other words, Bragg must prove that the federal government could’ve successfully prosecuted Trump for felonies or misdemeanors. The fact that the US DA did not prosecute is not dispositive, but probably probative.

And you call yourself a judge? Judge of what? Dog contests?

He does not have to prove the fraudulent filings committed a crime, but he had the intent to commit a crime by making the fraudulent filings.

It does not require Bragg to prove a felony under Fed law was committed.

No need to prove more then you have to.

quote:

And you call yourself a judge? Judge of what? Dog contests?

Hahaha. That’s funny.

Every count alleges that there was a “prior crime”. Not one of the 34 counts references what that prior crime was, just that it exists. I think y’all will discover that the required precedent crime(s) contemplated by Bragg was (were) Federal… a John Edwards type payoff. Clearly it’s a stretch, but not unheard of. The NY statute doesn’t require an attempt to hide a precedent state law, only an attempt to hide a criminal violation (assumably in any jurisdiction).

A great friend of mine and author once said that you can judge the character of a man by the quality of his enemies. Unfortunately, all my enemies are a pissants.

Why are they so many criminals in America??

Because there so many lawyers!

And lawyers become judges.

They support each other!

NY is a different realm.

I've read it. No details. Still think this is a political railroad job. Paying off a woman to keep her mouth shut can't be a crime.

. . . I guess the source of the funds used to payoff the woman and how you report the expenditures is irrelevant?

quote:

R

One, do you think Trump couldn't come up with $130K out of pocket to make the payoff? Obviously he could and if that's where the money came from, no crime.

Also, the 34 counts in the indictment is total BS.
Years ago, in a civil case, I put an expert on the stand to testify about trial groupings and he testified that the government asserts a ridiculous number of counts because it increases their likelihood of a conviction. Same thing with multiple plaintiffs in a civil case. After that, I started thinking and it seems to me the more counts the prosecutor brings, the weaker his case. That's just trial science. If he had a great case, he'd have brought one or two counts.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:

quote:

R

Obviously he could and if that's where the money came from, no crime.

. . . so you know that's where the money came from?

Saeed, would you quit on lawyers already?

If you are ever in Houston, I'd love to buy you dinner and prove to you that I'm not the Anti-Christ.

Mike, that's what I suspected, so where's the crime? Are we going to prosecute every businessman who had an affair and paid off the woman to keep quiet? That would be a long list.

It's $130,000 for Christ's sake. And Daniels was ordered to pay Trump over $120,000 in attorneys' fees on her defamation case. Do any of you believe this isn't completely political?

Noone prosecuted Bill Clinton for doing the same thing. John Edwards was acquitted for doing the same thing. This is a witch hunt.

Snoop Dogg needs a new wine label.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
It's $130,000 for Christ's sake. And Daniels was ordered to pay Trump over $120,000 in attorneys' fees on her defamation case. Do any of you believe this isn't completely political?

Noone prosecuted Bill Clinton for doing the same thing. John Edwards was acquitted for doing the same thing. This is a witch hunt.

Is an impeachment considered prosecution?

Impeachment is a political process not a judicial process according to the Supreme Court.

Thus, impeachment is not a criminal proceeding.

Jeopardy does not attach, and the Rules of Evidence and Procedure only apply to the extent the impeaching body chooses to adopt them. Yet, the Supreme Court case on pint says the Courts are not likely to get involved, should not get involved, and refused to get involved.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
It's $130,000 for Christ's sake. And Daniels was ordered to pay Trump over $120,000 in attorneys' fees on her defamation case. Do any of you believe this isn't completely political?

Noone prosecuted Bill Clinton for doing the same thing. John Edwards was acquitted for doing the same thing. This is a witch hunt.

It seems to me isn’t about blow jobs or hush money, this is about using that hush money to cook an election.

I’m sure other politicians are dirty too - probably all of them, as far as that goes - but this clown has exceeded all boundaries of acceptable dirtiness.

The hush money bullshit, the birther bullshit, the calls to Georgia, the ballot box bullshit, the Dominion voting machine bullshit, the Jan 6 bullshit, the not conceding his loss bullshit, and on and on and on. I don’t care how you try to condone it, that boy ain’t right.

It’s pretty apparent that the more normal bulk of the political and legal arena have finally reached the limits of their tolerance.

He’s not worthy of any further tolerance. If he’d have shut his pie hole and walked away with some dignity, he’d have simply been a not-too-successful former POTUS, but he’s too crazy to do even that. All they’re trying to do right now is make him ineligible to run again, lest his lunatic cultists manage to re-elect him or otherwise irreparably damage the electoral process.

Dump that fool!

I think he committed a misdemeanor with putting the paying off of Daniels and a misdemeanor for paying off that playboy bunny, although I didn’t see that being listed as one of these incidents.

Calling each check/mention in the ledger as a felony count is absurd, and somewhat why the criminal Justice reform movement has some traction.

While I personally think that if one applies what Comey said re HRC and not having proof of intent to this set of charges, I don’t think it’s reasonable to bring it.

Give him 2 misdemeanor charges of falsifying records for this situation (assuming the SOL argument doesn’t apply) and move on.

I do agree with the folks who are commenting on the publicized much worse issues.

Bring those charges up, and settle this mess.

I thought the GA SOS call in its entirety would be sufficient for something there.

He’s certainly been accused of ringleading the 1/6 debacle enough that the lefties are convinced of his guilt. Charge and try him if you have the evidence.

Like the first impeachment, all you are doing with this is making the folks saying Trump has done something look incredibly petty and dangerous.

Repeated attempts that fail due to overreach and lack of common sense are a problem.

If you really want to put Trump in prison, it’s going to require something more than this, IMO.

I am not arguing that Trump did nothing here. If any of us did this, we would certainly get the misdemeanor conviction and probably get slapped with a big fine and tax bill… and probably get divorced and lose all our assets there.

AFAIC, I think Trump smells enough to not be voted for, nominated for anything, and I think anyone who wants to vote for him needs to have their civic consciousness self examined. That’s a far cry from thinking he’s convictable for treason (which is the charge I think appropriate for what he is accused of in total.)

That being said, if the left wants to elevate every slightly problematic act to a felony, while using assumptions about motives to raise it to a felony level, it will cause the political class to reap the whirlwind. No doubt this is a shift in paradigm, and previously political types have gotten away with it, even if Trump is much more arrogantly in your face about it than most (Marion Barry being the only one I think close) but we have done this before as far as changing how we deal with the political class.

If I was Elizabeth Warren, I’d be very afraid…