Mike,
Look at how upset you are, and all over a simple truth that you can’t accept…

I’m not sure what is funnier, the fact that you are angry at the truth, or the fact that you have proven to be more sensitive about this truth than the 3 black people that theback40 discussed it with.

BTW, I might be mixed up, but I thought that someone said that you are a lawyer. Is that true?

I have this image of you in court:

MM, erupts out of his seat(think Henry Fonda as Atticus Finch): “I OBJECT YOUR HONOR!”

Judge: “On what grounds, counselor?”

MM: “Because your Honor, tHaT’s OfFiNcIvE!”



All joking aside, there is not a person walking this earth who isn’t the result of at least one pregnancy that resulted from rape somewhere in their bloodline. Think of that Mike, if it hadn’t been for that grandmother of yours, somewhere in the past 12,000 generations, who conceived another of your ancestors through being raped, you would not even exist!

Therefore Mike, you benefited from your your great^(n) grandmother being raped.

Even worse: every one of your ancestors that came after that rape, also benefited from that rape. And all of your offspring and their offspring: beneficiaries of rape.

Maybe the rapist was a Viking and he killed your ancestor’s husband before raping her…

So you benefited from rape and murder!

Let me guess: you find that offensive…

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
MM I'm up to three african americans I've asked.
The last one was very interesting talk. A 20 yr old college kid, who was visiting her friends from college here in town.
I asked her thoughts on this.
She said, before going to college, she would have jumped on a soapbox and ranted for all to hear how wrong it was.
As it turned out, she was in college with a young lady from Bennin.
She said what I learned from her struggles to get an education, and to be able to come to the USA for college, left me humbled. She said I grew up lower middle class, had a chip on my shoulder about it. She said she resented so many things, that I took for granted in my life, as not good enough as I was black.
Her final words were, slavery was horrible, and still going on in Africa, even if more subtle than it was. She wished it had not happened here, but no way does she wish she was in the shoes of her friend from Bennin. And she is one of the few lucky ones.
So far it's 3 for 3, they would rather be here in the US, even though there has been slavery, than be in Africa.

Asking a 20 year old who has lived in the US her whole life whether she would live here or in Africa doesn’t really address the issue, does it?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:

Her final words were, slavery was horrible, and still going on in Africa, even if more subtle than it was. She wished it had not happened here, but no way does she wish she was in the shoes of her friend from Bennin.

So far it's 3 for 3, they would rather be here in the US, even though there has been slavery, than be in Africa.

Asking a 20 year old who has lived in the US her whole life whether she would live here or in Africa doesn’t really address the issue, does it?

Exactly which issue did she fail to address?

It seems to me that she has echoed my sentiments. Where have I asserted anything that wasn’t supported by her answer?

You are trying to twist things Mike.
The question, to all three has been. Has there been any benefit to the people who's ancestors were slaves.
For some reason you think a conversation about it is taboo. It is not. I suppose if you go about it as an accusation and not a discussion it could be. I dont get offended when asked about white supremacy or any other question by them either.
You are hung up on it, not everyone else is.

The question as to whether or not the descendants of slaves are in a better position as a result of their ancestors' experience is an entirely different question, and not really related to the aspect of black history, and the slave experience, as outlined in the Florida curriculum paper.
It is also worth noting that, in the case of most young adults today, at least six generations have preceded them since the abolition of slavery. At some point, the decision has to be made to shed the burden of victimhood.
By the way, the racial origins of my friends and relatives is also not germane to the conversation. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
I sure wish my ancestors were slaves. Think of all the skills they could have picked up to pass down to their descendants.

I might have learned how to shoe a horse or pick cotton.

Speaking of cotton, commercial cotton is not native to North America. Did Africans bring a knowledge of the plant with them?

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
The question as to whether or not the descendants of slaves are in a better position as a result of their ancestors' experience is an entirely different question, and not really related to the aspect of black history, and the slave experience, as outlined in the Florida curriculum paper.

Mike has dredged up an argument from a previous thread and tried to tie it into the Florida controversy. The argument was whether or not African Americans living today have benefited from the fact that their predecessors were the victims of the transatlantic slave trade. He seems to agree to the obvious benefits, but continues to argue that this is a subject that could never be broached with an African American due to the fact that it is so utterly offensive.

So, you are saying Mike wants so desperately to find offence in the Florida curriculum, he is distorting what it says so he can make an argument? Now I understand! I often miss some of the nuances of internet communication. Regards, Bill

Seems like I'm not the only one that thinks teaching slavery was beneficial is batshit crazy. Virtually every other GOP presidential candidate does too....

"Not surprisingly, a number of DeSantis’s rivals for the GOP nomination have seized on Florida’s batshit new rules as well as DeSantis’s decision to back them. On Sunday, appearing on NBC News’ Meet the Press, former GOP congressman Will Hurd said that “anybody that is implying that there was an upside to slavery is insane.” (He also noted the obvious, which is that “slavery is not a jobs program.”) Hurd added: “It’d be hard to make the case, if Ron DeSantis was the Republican nominee, that folks in Black and brown communities should support him.”

Also on Sunday, former UN ambassador and 2024 hopeful Nikki Haley told CBS News’ Face the Nation: “It’s the 21st century. And I think we can all agree that…there were no positives that came out of slavery,” adding that DeSantis should say as much. On CNN’s State of the Union, fellow 2024 candidate Vivek Ramaswamy said that “obviously, we should be teaching kids about the awful legacy of slavery.”

Days earlier, Representative Tim Scott—the sole Black Republican in the Senate—told reporters at a campaign stop: “As a country founded upon freedom, the greatest deprivation of freedom was slavery. There is no silver lining…in slavery…What slavery was really about [was] separating families, about mutilating humans, and even raping their wives. It was just devastating."

And on Wednesday, Representative Byron Donalds—the only Black GOP congressman representing Florida—tweeted that “the attempt to feature the personal benefits of slavery is wrong & needs to be adjusted.” (In response, DeSantis’s campaign picked a public fight with the lawmaker.)"

https://www.vanityfair.com/new...a-slavery-curriculum

And, again, who is going to respond to my inquiry about the benefits of the Holocaust? The Jews clearly benefited from HItler killing 6,000,000 of them since it eventually led to the founding of the state of Israel. So, where are all the threads and discussions about how beneficial the Holocaust was for the Jews? Same thing, right?

Idiots.

And, again, it's not the same thing at all nor is the claim being made that the institution of slavery was beneficial. The lesson plan does include teaching that some slaves learned skills which were beneficial.
I have heard of no such claims for Jews who were imprisoned and killed; nor have I heard any argument that any descendants of Jewish people imprisoned in concentration camps are in better circumstances because of it.
I understand that you like to argue, but you are really reaching on this. Regards, Bill

quote:

...where are all the threads and discussions about how beneficial the Holocaust was for the Jews? Same thing, right?

Do you get headaches coming up with such inane thoughts?

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:


And, again, who is going to respond to my inquiry about the benefits of the Holocaust? The Jews clearly benefited from HItler killing 6,000,000 of them since it eventually led to the founding of the state of Israel. So, where are all the threads and discussions about how beneficial the Holocaust was for the Jews? Same thing, right?

Idiots.

Instead of changing the subject, wouldn’t it be easier for you to accept that you were wrong in thinking that African Americans all follow the victim narrative that you seem so stuck on?

Are you able to admit to yourself that you learned something?

Jason, the great teacher of proper thinking.

The benefits of slavery were three fold: 1) a violent racial hierarchy predicated on the subjugation of millions of people for the purpose of generating large amounts of cash. For this cash, humans were deemed Chattel property, and 2) expanding slavery among territories that would be admitted as States to prevent the Federal Congress from abolishing the practice, and 3) Cresting a Class of wealth based on a permanent class of labor thst would be kept in check against that class of wealth.

Those are the only benefits. On that, there is no debate.

How about teaching S. Caroline passed a law that free seamen from other nations had to be jailed while in port. This was to preserve the social hierarchy. S.C. did not want to see freemen walking around as men. S.C. certainly did not want their slaves seeing these freemen.

A Jamaican freeman challenged his detention and won at the S.Ct.

How about teach that. I did not learn this until law school.

Benefit and enslaved do not equate.

Mike, in the other thread I did ask your question.
I'll repeat myself as you must not have seen it.
My ex is jewish, so know lots of Jews.
Most here have no connection to Israel. They see only the killing of 6 million people, and most to some degree, dislike what Israel has done to the Palestinians. A few I talked to had dual citizenship. They had done their national service. To them, all who died in the past to make the Jewish State happen were martyrs. Any that die killed by Palestinians/Arabs are heros.
It differed with who I asked, and their background story.
We have such different takes on acceptable.
You are a city dweller. Here is very rural, cell coverage is spotty. Go off the road here, you walk to the nearest house and ask for help. People still talk to strangers. No-one has taken offense to my questions, maybe we are still willing to talk about things here?

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Jason, the great teacher of proper thinking.

He's a troll who asks troll questions that he thinks are clever. "When did you stop beating your wife" inquiries.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:


And, again, who is going to respond to my inquiry about the benefits of the Holocaust? The Jews clearly benefited from HItler killing 6,000,000 of them since it eventually led to the founding of the state of Israel. So, where are all the threads and discussions about how beneficial the Holocaust was for the Jews? Same thing, right?

Idiots.

Instead of changing the subject, wouldn’t it be easier for you to accept that you were wrong in thinking that African Americans all follow the victim narrative that you seem so stuck on?

Are you able to admit to yourself that you learned something?

Jason, you follow me around like a little puppy. I'm not changing the subject.

You're the one extolling the virtues of presenting slavery as a benefit to African-Americans. I've told you why you're full of shit, sorry you can't seem to grasp it.

Now, how about an answer to my question? Do you believe the Holocaust was beneficial to the Jews and should they be grateful it occurred since it led directly to the establishment of the state of Israel? Because that's exactly the argument you try to make in relation to slavery. In between talking about my grandmother getting raped and insulting my profession. Somebody ought to knock you out.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
How about teaching S. Caroline passed a law that free seamen from other nations had to be jailed while in port. This was to preserve the social hierarchy. S.C. did not want to see freemen walking around as men. S.C. certainly did not want their slaves seeing these freemen.

A Jamaican freeman challenged his detention and won at the S.Ct.

How about teach that. I did not learn this until law school.

Benefit and enslaved do not equate.

That IS an interesting bit of legal trivia. I wonder, did the State of Florida (the origin of the curriculum at the heart of this debate) have a similar law in place? If so, this would certainly be germane to the conversation. Just as the totality of the slave's experiences are germane. Regards, Bill.

I think it's offensive to suggest to a black person, whether by question or statement, that they should be grateful their ancestors were brought to the US as slaves. I wouldn't ask a black person this question because I'd probably never get a frank, complete answer. Instead, I'd expect a non-committal response. They probably want to avoid a fight over race with a white friend.

I can see them going home to a spouse or friend and saying, "Guess what a white guy asked me today?"

Besides its offensiveness, the question demonstrates defective thinking. UnAmerican thinking. The standard that black people want is parity with fellow Americans, not foreign nationals in Africa or elsewhere.

Why should we suggest to them they deserve less?

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Mike, in the other thread I did ask your question.
I'll repeat myself as you must not have seen it.
My ex is jewish, so know lots of Jews.
Most here have no connection to Israel. They see only the killing of 6 million people, and most to some degree, dislike what Israel has done to the Palestinians. A few I talked to had dual citizenship. They had done their national service. To them, all who died in the past to make the Jewish State happen were martyrs. Any that die killed by Palestinians/Arabs are heros.
It differed with who I asked, and their background story.
We have such different takes on acceptable.
You are a city dweller. Here is very rural, cell coverage is spotty. Go off the road here, you walk to the nearest house and ask for help. People still talk to strangers. No-one has taken offense to my questions, maybe we are still willing to talk about things here?

Engaging someone in an intellectual discussion about cost/benefit of a historical event is one thing. Advocating an educational curriculum that states that slavery was beneficial to African-Americans is something else.

OK, fine with that Mike.
But several times you said, go out and ask, blacks, jews and so on. I have done that.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
OK, fine with that Mike.
But several times you said, go out and ask, blacks, jews and so on. I have done that.

Well, I haven't so maybe I'm wrong about it. But, you really haven't addressed what I'm talking about.

Has one of your black friends expressed the opinion that slavery was beneficial?

Has one of your Jewish friends expressed the opinion that the Holocaust was beneficial?

Because that's what we're talking about here. Should kids in Florida be taught that slavery had benefits?

It just makes my head spin that this is even a discussion that we are having. Absurd.

Are you talking about beneficial to the slaves themselves?
Because I already answered if we are talking about blacks and jews I talked to in this time.

quote:

. In fact, you appear to be exceptionally capable of feigning ignorance in order to make an argument.

Its a liberal trait that they groom constantly. Lawyers as well....


.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Are you talking about beneficial to the slaves themselves?
Because I already answered if we are talking about blacks and jews I talked to in this time.

There is no benefit past or present to slavery for those made slaves or anyone today.

The benefits of slavery were three fold: 1) a violent racial hierarchy predicated on the subjugation of millions of people for the purpose of generating large amounts of cash. For this cash, humans were deemed Chattel property, and 2) expanding slavery among territories that would be admitted as States to prevent the Federal Congress from abolishing the practice, and 3) Cresting a Class of wealth based on a permanent class of labor thst would be kept in check against that class of wealth.

Those are the only benefits. On that, there is no debate.

I do not know if FL had a similar law to S.C. concerning the jailing of free black nationals while in port.

The Black Codes across the south did see the indenturing of African Americans (Freemen) after the Civil War. These laws made Jim Crowe look almost tame. FL did adopt Black Codes. Again, I was not taught about them in k-12. We were taught Reconstruction was evil. Well, no. The Black Codes that Reconstruction stopped were evil.

I know one free black sailor was hanged in South Carolina. I know 7 states passed similar laws. If you have access to JSTOR there is a lot of scholarship on the Seaman’s Act of 1822.

When Oregon banned slavery, the same law also banned freemen from Oregon allowing freemen who remained in the state to be arrested. Oregon, where no slavery and no blacks were permitted.

FL did pass its version on the South Carolina Seaman’s Act of 1822.

In the wake of the trial and execution of the slaves involved in Vesey’s attempted uprising in 1822, South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, and Louisiana passed the Negro Seaman Acts in an effort to curtail the freedoms of black sailors.21 Ships entering ports in these states were required by law to incarcerate black crewmen in city jails.

https://cupola.gettysburg.edu/...cle=1070&context=ghj

There must be some debate, or I wouldnt have had anything to converse with them about.
Are you black, or colored? Do you speak for everyone? I know you think you do, but, that is really just your ego.

I am white. Not all perspectives have value.

The argument slavery had benefits has no value.

Teach how FL slave holders arrested freemen and feee nationals.

Teach how a Slaver’s Rebellion nearly destroyed the Constitution and Union.

I see, the African Americans I talked to, perspectives have no value. Got it.

Ask them if they would rather be free and miserable or enslaved and fed.

No, the position slavery provided a or any benefit to those enslaved has no value.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Are you talking about beneficial to the slaves themselves?
Because I already answered if we are talking about blacks and jews I talked to in this time.

Well, either. Plenty of folks here have already stated that slavery was beneficial to slaves because they learned how to shoe horses. So, I assume you're on board with that absurd statement.

Wow, some of you cant read.
They thought there was no benfit to being a freed slave with what they had learned. They felt they benefitted by being US citizens from the ancestors of slaves.
Twist that anyway you want. I'm done repeating myself.

I guess most of you have not seen the lengthy interview with the black scholar that is responsible for most of the 200 page curriculum. I am going to believe what he says instead of anyone else

Again, I posted access to the standard. Go read it.

It is there as Leeper has identified. The fact FL is trying to sell it does not change what they wrote.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Are you talking about beneficial to the slaves themselves?
Because I already answered if we are talking about blacks and jews I talked to in this time.

Well, either. Plenty of folks here have already stated that slavery was beneficial to slaves because they learned how to shoe horses. So, I assume you're on board with that absurd statement.

I missed the part where anybody said that. I did read, in the curriculum, that some slaves learned skills which were beneficial to them. I did not read anywhere that slavery was beneficial to slaves. Perhaps it is I who am grammatically challenged. Regards, Bill.

To me, the larger issue is that are we trying to teach children that they have a grievance now or not?

Slavery was a cultural norm for many societies, including the antebellum south.

Slavery is an innate evil in that it reduces someone to the status of an object.

However, while slavery was wrong and is abhorrent, and a knowledge of the past is important, it’s the past. Ask the average refugee or illegal if they feel it’s better here or in their homeland, where they are a racial majority.

I get that the implication that someone should be grateful that their ancestor was a slave is bad, and wrong… but similarly they should be grateful that they are here instead of wherever they were before- and if they really feel they are not, emigrate back to wherever.

I have no interest in returning to Norway, Germany, Ireland, England, or any of the dozen other places my relatives came from (that I know of…) to live.

If they want to talk about reparations, then maybe they can start paying me for the over a dozen known members of my family that have “fell at Antitam… fell at Gettysburg… fell at Bull Run… in the family records. They died to set the blacks free and the gratitude we get is that I should pay them?

See how silly this whole generational grievance crap is?

I get that Florida (being ex confederate) isn’t really wild about advertising that their state government was on the wrong side of morality back before 1865, but what does that have to do with spending inordinate amounts of limited class time on it? Either in an apologetic fashion or as a denial?

History is out there. I have no problems with individuals deciding to study black history or civil war history, but history does need context for its lessons to be valuable. If you are not giving context, then your lesson is pure propaganda.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
Jason, the great teacher of proper thinking.

I see you’re still sore about the time I taught you you spontaneously came to the realization that the fact that you are a “well meaning white liberal” doesn’t give you the right to speak for all African Americans on what is and is not “too offensive to be mentioned” in their presence…

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

I get that the implication that someone should be grateful that their ancestor was a slave is bad, and wrong… but similarly they should be grateful that they are here instead of wherever they were before- and if they really feel they are not,emigrate back to wherever.

I have no interest in returning to Norway, Germany, Ireland, England, or any of the dozen other places my relatives came from (that I know of…) to live.

Butler, I am not taking issue with you, but I quoted your post because I want to expand my position (as I am being painted as the guy who thinks that African Americans should be thanking us for slavery -an assertion that I have never made).

I find it offensive when anyone asserts that “blacks should go back to Africa if they think they have it so bad here”. And yes, I do realize that you weren’t saying that.

The reason that I find it offensive is that the descendants of slaves have no where to “go back to”. For better or worse, the twists and turns of history have placed them here in America, therefore they are Americans just like the rest of us. And just like the rest of us, they are of mixed ancestry which means that they, like most everyone else in America, can’t claim to belong to any single country other than the United States.

And as LHeym has pointed out, they deserve to be afforded every opportunity that America offers the rest of its citizens.

Your ancestors were part of the millions of Union soldiers who fought, and the hundreds of thousands who died, fighting and winning the war that ended slavery. They deserve to be mentioned alongside the white and black Americans who fought slavery long before the nation was ready to fight a war over the institution.



Getting back to the topic at hand: should schools teach that “slavery benefited the slaves by teaching them skills?”

I believe that it would be better to teach them about the industrious men who were born slaves, but went on to become successful men and women. Some of whom became rich by any standard.

But I guess that doesn’t follow the victim narrative that is being pushed.

I didn't learn any such thing. I never purported to speak for all black people--that's your own fantasy talking. If you didn't post so much, you might have learned something yourself.

I'm not black, but I have empathy and imagination to tell me that I would be offended by the statement. It's not a question, even if you disguise it as such.