Tariffs. Let me see if I got this straight.

16 February 2025, 20:03

Magine Enigam

Tariff revenue goes into the treasury.

Trump Team including that sweet guy Peter Navarro, counselor to the President, think tariffs will make up for tax cuts.

Tariffs are paid by the importing country.

The importing country will raise the price of their goods to cover costs.

The average US citizen will pay more for the imported goods, everything from auto parts to fishing gear.

So, the main beneficiary of Trump's tax cuts are corporations and the wealthy.

Fill in the blank spaces and tell me what I got right, wrong or missing.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/mone...6008ce5a2b8c8f&ei=93

The real reason Trump is waging a global trade war
Story by Melissa Lawford • 3h • 6 min read

*************
“Those who control the present, control the past and those who control the past control the future.” George Orwell, 1984
https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp

Degenerate 1:1
1 Then Trump said, "Let Us re-make a Nation in MY Image, after My likeness, to rule over everything in the Nation, and over all the earth itself and every creature that crawls upon it".

Degenerate 1:2
2 Then Trump said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay on your behalf."

Degenerate 1:3
3 "My Kingdom come, My will be done."

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

O.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr.

"Be careful. When a democracy is sick, fascism comes to its bedside, but it is not to inquire about its health." - Albert Camus

16 February 2025, 20:18

TomP

quote:
Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
Tariff revenue goes into the treasury.

Give with one hand (tax cuts for some), take with the other (tariffs for the rest).

When I buy parts from Digikey, the tariff is one of the line items.
There is no one in China paying my tariff.
I know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for me.

16 February 2025, 20:25

Tumbleweed

quote:
Originally posted by TomP:
quote:
Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
Tariff revenue goes into the treasury.

Give with one hand (tax cuts for some), take with the other (tariffs for the rest).

When I buy parts from Digikey, the tariff is one of the line items.
There is no one in China paying my tariff.
I know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for me.

…and that is how you solidify an oligarchy.

I’m surprised nobody has noticed that at Trumps inauguration, the billionaires stood in front of the elected representatives. If that wasn’t indicative, nothing was.

16 February 2025, 20:29

LHeym500

We saw, some would like to turn the country over to them. A couple of them post here often.

We need to bring back the Glass-Steagall Act, and tax their stocks.

16 February 2025, 20:47

Saeed

They are back door taxes!

16 February 2025, 20:47

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
We saw, some would like to turn the country over to them. A couple of them post here often.

We need to bring back the Glass-Steagall Act, and tax their stocks.

the GSA lead EXACTLY to the housing crisis -- which is why it was repealed

tariffs are a voluntary consumption tax -

can't tax unearn gains- literally unconstitutional

16 February 2025, 20:51

LHeym500

No what lead to the housing crisis was predatory lending and government subside of the housing market that made banks play fast and loose separate from the GSA.

The GSA was repelled in 1999.

The GSA separates commercial banking from investment banking.

And no it is not. Give me a case that says we can’t. In fact cases say Congress can tax whatever and how much it wants.

Without a case you have no support for your assertion.

Finally, we tax accessed value all the time. It is called property taxes. There is no reason the same logic does not apply to stocks and assesses valuation.

Yep, finally some honesty. I tax on consumption on an economy built on consumption present a President who ran on things costing too much.

Go ahead place tariff (Tax) lumber and car parts and see what happens.

Oh, and the President wo legislation cannot set tariffs. Would you like some historical and legal precedent for that assertion?

16 February 2025, 21:11

Magine Enigam

quote:
tariffs are a voluntary consumption tax

Like sales tax?

Yea, right, it's voluntary. If you don't want to pay the tax, don't consume.

16 February 2025, 21:19

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
No what lead to the housing crisis was predatory lending and government subside of the housing market that made banks play fast and loose separate from the GSA.

The GSA was repelled in 1999.

actually, yes - you can believe whatever you want -- which of us was an Internal CIO for a major bank during that time?

just to remind you of the actual words of the 16th

quote:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes , from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

16 February 2025, 21:19

LHeym500

Too bad we have to use steel, lumber, and aluminum.

China in response has already banned the importation of tungsten and bismuth. So, shooters should be thankful for President Trump.

16 February 2025, 21:20

LHeym500

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
No what lead to the housing crisis was predatory lending and government subside of the housing market that made banks play fast and loose separate from the GSA.

The GSA was repelled in 1999.

actually, yes - you can believe whatever you want -- which of us was an Internal CIO for a major bank during that time?

just to remind you of the actual words of the 16th

quote:
The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes , from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

You can say whatever you want. You have provided no facts.

I can read a statute.

IT does not make you an expert in banking. I can give better qualified folks than you who dispute your assertion. I’ll believe them.

I’ll believe the president and ceo of banks I spoke to and PhD economist who have testified and published in the issue.

16 February 2025, 21:23

ANTELOPEDUNDEE

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
We saw, some would like to turn the country over to them. A couple of them post here often.

We need to bring back the Glass-Steagall Act, and tax their stocks.

the GSA lead EXACTLY to the housing crisis -- which is why it was repealed

tariffs are a voluntary consumption tax -

can't tax unearn gains- literally unconstitutional

16 February 2025, 21:30

Magine Enigam

Trump Musk think we're stupid.

Well, he's half Right. (pun intended)

16 February 2025, 21:34

Rick R

I’m just a stoopid retired doofus but it’s easy to see that the end goal of Trump’s tariffs is to make it more economical to produce and sell products here in the US instead of off shore.

We buy everything from N95 masks to the steel our artillery shells are made out of from the Land of Somewhere Else and they control our ability to respond to emergencies.

Pay people to make everything here and everyone from the janitor to the billionaire is better off.

16 February 2025, 21:49

Magine Enigam

quote:
it’s easy to see that the end goal of Trump’s tariffs is to make it more economical to produce and sell products here in the US instead of off shore.

In theory. At least that's what he wants you to believe.

It took a long time for the means of production migrated to other countries.

I don't see how that can be reversed short term, nor does it cure or negate the reasons it happened.

Yes, Tariffs MAY raise the prices of goods to the point where production infrastructure may become domestic. That takes a lot of money, and it is risky too, at political whims. Elections have consequences, and that's assuming we still have meaningful elections.

I'm certainly not smart enough or have enough knowledge to figure that out. But I am smart enough to not trust Trump, Musk, Trumpism on anything they spout.

The ripple effect of it all is way over my head, but it is worldwide despite the nationalist/protectionist MAGA attitude.

First thing to know is if Globalization economically is a good thing? I think it is for several reasons. Why can't we work in that framework and thrive, along with the rest of the world, especially our allies and partners?

Is MAGA all about zero-sum, domestically and internationally?

16 February 2025, 22:00

TomP

quote:
Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
quote:
it’s easy to see that the end goal of Trump’s tariffs is to make it more economical to produce and sell products here in the US instead of off shore.

In theory. At least that's what he wants you to believe.

It took a long time for the means of production migrated to other countries.

I don't see how that can be reversed short term, nor does it cure or negate the reasons it happened.

Yes, Tariffs MAY raise the prices of goods to the point where production infrastructure may become domestic. That takes a lot of money, and it is risky too, at political whims. Elections have consequences, and that's assuming we still have meaningful elections.

I'm certainly not smart enough or have enough knowledge to figure that out. But I am smart enough to not trust Trump, Musk, Trumpism on anything they spout.

The ripple effect of it all is way over my head, but it is worldwide despite the nationalist/protectionist MAGA attitude.

First thing to know is if Globalization economically is a good thing? I think it is for several reasons. Why can't we work in that framework and thrive?

One little hitch. Raising a production capability requires capital expense. Fifty years ago I pitched a manufacturing proposal to a fellow who ran a Lichtenstein trust. He told me that manufacturing doesn't pay enough of a return. I suspect that our modern private equity firms would see this as gospel, only interested if there is an exit ramp with high profit.

A company I see no need to name was sold three or four times in twenty years, to various private equity outfits and broken up into its component pieces. At the outset I proposed an employee buyout and that was soundly rejected by its owners. The last sale would have made millionaires of every employee at the company, down to its janitor.

Where is the money to acquire resources while competing with offshore capital and labor?

16 February 2025, 22:10

JTEX

quote:
Originally posted by Rick R:
I’m just a stoopid retired doofus but it’s easy to see that the end goal of Trump’s tariffs is to make it more economical to produce and sell products here in the US instead of off shore.

We buy everything from N95 masks to the steel our artillery shells are made out of from the Land of Somewhere Else and they control our ability to respond to emergencies.

Pay people to make everything here and everyone from the janitor to the billionaire is better off.

Exactly! And our money stays here and is not used against us!

.

16 February 2025, 22:11

Magine Enigam

Yes, Tom, it's still over my head.

What I read between the lines of what you said is "money for nothing".

And who suffers the down-side?

And another thing, the whole philosophy of MAGA is antithesis of win-win. Why should this be different?

16 February 2025, 22:31

Rick R

quote:
Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
quote:
it’s easy to see that the end goal of Trump’s tariffs is to make it more economical to produce and sell products here in the US instead of off shore.

In theory. At least that's what he wants you to believe.

It took a long time for the means of production migrated to other countries.

I don't see how that can be reversed short term, nor does it cure or negate the reasons it happened.

Yes, Tariffs MAY raise the prices of goods to the point where production infrastructure may become domestic. That takes a lot of money, and it is risky too, at political whims. Elections have consequences, and that's assuming we still have meaningful elections.

I'm certainly not smart enough or have enough knowledge to figure that out. But I am smart enough to not trust Trump, Musk, Trumpism on anything they spout.

The ripple effect of it all is way over my head, but it is worldwide despite the nationalist/protectionist MAGA attitude.

First thing to know is if Globalization economically is a good thing? I think it is for several reasons. Why can't we work in that framework and thrive, along with the rest of the world, especially our allies and partners?

Is MAGA all about zero-sum, domestically and internationally?

It’s way over my head too. Trump seems to think that by force of will he can bring manufacturing back to CONUS and undo the laws and regulations that forced/enabled/propagated the move to other countries over the last several decades under both D and R administrations. And he’s sitting in the one chair on the planet that can make it happen.

Otherwise we’re headed right for the dystopian world of the Expanse book series where the government pays 80% of the population to not work.

I don’t particularly like the guy, I wouldn’t go sit down for a beer and a chat with him or Musk. I’ve met their type several times in my life and find driven successful guys to be annoying. But at this point in time I’m content to sit back and watch them either fix or wreck the present clusterfuck we’re living in.

17 February 2025, 00:23

LHeym500

You cannot get around the cost of flowing business in the US.

17 February 2025, 01:24

crbutler

quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
You cannot get around the cost of flowing business in the US.

If you mean the cost of doing business in the US, I think you are right, but you can adjust what it costs to do business here.

17 February 2025, 02:22

LHeym500

Yeah, o em not voting on giving up collective bargaining, safety standard, etc. You can.

17 February 2025, 02:48

Magine Enigam

And I'm not voting for sacrificing environmental protections, what little there is.

17 February 2025, 02:52

Magine Enigam

quote:
I think you are right, but you can adjust what it costs to do business here.

That would involve some real trickle down, not just a slogan. Yes, even at the expense of shareholders.

17 February 2025, 03:29

Tumbleweed

quote:
Originally posted by Rick R:
I’m just a stoopid retired doofus but it’s easy to see that the end goal of Trump’s tariffs is to make it more economical to produce and sell products here in the US instead of off shore.

We buy everything from N95 masks to the steel our artillery shells are made out of from the Land of Somewhere Else and they control our ability to respond to emergencies.

Pay people to make everything here and everyone from the janitor to the billionaire is better off.

Almost, but not quite. You can produce corn cheaper than I can? Great!

I can produce Spruce 2x4’s cheaper than you can, so let’s both produce as best we can and trade! If shipping and distribution work out in both our favors, we all get the best prices and the most robust economies.

Imposing blanket tariffs just complicates things and raises prices (and increases inflation) for both of us. Tariffs are only beneficial in very specific instances, for example if we both produced a surplus of corn and started cutting each other’s throats with ridiculous low prices.

The car & truck trade has been like that for years, Canada, the U.S. and Mexico have all been producing the parts they can put out most efficiently. Disrupting that will surely drive the prices up for all of us.

What Trump is doing right now is like fishing in a trout pond with a case of dynamite.