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My Christian Faith Won't Let Me Vote for Donald Trump Login/Join 
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. . . good to see that there are still Christians that have decided not to follow a false prophet.


My Christian Faith Won't Let Me Vote for Donald Trump

My Christian Faith Won't Let Me Vote for Donald Trump
Story by Donovan McAbee
Time

When I step into the voting booth next week, I will participate in making my voice heard on local, state, and federal issues that range from a local transit tax, all the way to who will represent me in the U.S. House, Senate, and ultimately who will be our next President. Like millions of Americans of faith, my religious beliefs will be the central factor in my decision-making process.

This might be an uncomfortable statement for some, particularly those who find belief in any sort of deity to be an outdated relic of a bygone era. Who could blame them for their unease? Organized religion has a checkered past, to put it mildly.

But as a Christian, the bigger threat in the U.S. now seems to be Evangelical idolatry—this tendency of many Christians to turn a political candidate into an idol, particularly one who has proven himself so thoroughly unfit as Donald Trump.

At a recent campaign event in Concord, N.C., supporters of former president and current Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump erupted into chants of “Jesus! Jesus! Jesus!” The crowd’s chants came in response to Trump claiming that his Democratic opponent, Vice President Kamala Harris, recently “mocked” and “ridiculed” Christians at her own rally, when they had shouted “Jesus is Lord.”

As with many of Trump’s assertions, this was a lie. In fact, Harris was responding to a small group of anti-abortion protesters at her rally in La Crosse, Wis. In a matter of seconds, the small group was yelling multiple slogans in Harris’s direction, including “Jesus is Lord,” “Lies!” and “abortion is a sacrament of Satan.” It is unclear, as multiple witnesses and video footage of the event attest, which phrase, if any in particular, Harris was responding to in the chaos of the moment. Harris, who had been interrupted by the group while she was speaking about abortion rights, suggested that these protesters were at the “wrong rally” and belonged at the smaller one down the road, apparently referencing a Trump rally. Far from ridiculing or mocking the Christian faith, Harris was clearly attempting to quiet the protestors, who had interrupted her speech.

Despite the lack of veracity in Trump’s retelling, his version of the story had already spread across conservative corners of social media and was amplified by rightwing news outlets. This anecdote has now become one of the many ways the Trump campaign has attempted to brand Harris as a threat to Christianity in America.

I find this notion of Christians in the U.S. being an embattled group to be absurd. This lie is an old and often used rallying cry for rightwing Christians, insistent on stoking the flames of a culture war. Christians represent a large and powerful majority of the U.S. population, making any claims that Christians are being persecuted in this country laughable.

When I think of the name Jesus being shouted over and over at a political rally, in response to a politician’s lie, I am angered at both the politician, as well as the response of the crowd of people, who seem to have transfigured a race-baiting, serial sexual assaulting, lie-pedaling politician into a messianic figure.

Evangelical figureheads like Rob Jeffress, of First Baptist Church Dallas and Franklin Graham, who was on the stage at the Trump rally that night in N.C., have long done their parts, along with many other Evangelical power brokers, to stoke unfounded Christian fears of persecution and to cast Trump as the God-ordained figure to stand against the “dark forces,” as Graham framed the situation in his prayer from the stage at the rally.

In Trump, Evangelicals have found a candidate who allows them, encourages them even, to baptize their prejudices against immigrants, against the LGBTQ+ communities, fomenting a movement of hatefulness, all in the name of God.

I wish that as I cast my vote next week, I would be confronted with difficult choices over who to choose as my state representative, U.S. House member, Senator, and President. But Trumpism in all its ugliness has now so overwhelmingly become the orthodoxy of the Republican party that even the down ballot Republican candidates overwhelmingly represent the cruelty and thoughtlessness we see in Trump.

Where I live in Tennessee, a state with the highest per capita rate of hospital closure in the nation and among the worst outcomes for maternal and infant healthcare, our statehouse’s Republican supermajority continues to reject federal funding for Medicaid expansion, a decision that has resulted in hundreds of premature deaths and billions of dollars lost to the state since 2014.

The Republican candidate for my U.S. House District is the incumbent Rep. Andy Ogles. In a state where firearm-related events are the leading cause of death for children, Ogles is the Congressman who famously posed with his family, four of the five members, including Ogles himself, armed with assault rifles for their Christmas Card. Since the Covenant School shooting in March 2023, Rep. Ogles’s response to the Covenant families has been largely silence, as in the months after, he reportedly never met with representatives from Covenant School families, nor did he address the deadly issues confronting our state’s children. The Republican candidate for U.S. Senate is Sen. Marsha Blackburn, an incumbent, who echoes Trump’s anti-immigrant rhetoric, all the while opposing the bipartisan border security legislation brought before the Senate earlier this year. While both Ogles and Blackburn wear their religious identities loudly, theirs is not a version of our shared faith that I see expressed in the Christian gospels.

In my own imperfect attempts to understand and practice my faith, I’ve come to believe that the beauty and healing power of the Christian story is that we believe in a God who draws near to the hurting, the suffering, the immigrant, and the marginalized. When I consider a leader who mocks those he perceives as weak, who lies almost as often as he breathes, who race-baits both documented and undocumented migrants, and who seeks to divide neighbor from neighbor, I can’t in good conscience vote for a Republican candidate for President, nor can I vote for the down ballot Republicans who parrot this hatefulness and divisiveness and demonstrate a callous indifference for the welfare of their constituents.

This doesn’t mean that I like having my vote default to Democratic candidates. Democrats’ sometimes clumsy performative “wokeness” is genuinely deserving of ridicule, as with the image of Senators Pelosi, Schumer, and others kneeling while wearing kente cloth stoles in the aftermath of the George Floyd’s death. And yet despite the cringe factor, there is a largely sincere attempt in Democratic circles at reckoning with our nation’s racist history and seeking to correct our historical racism through legislation.

While there is, on the farther left wing of the progressive spectrum, a lack of tolerance for questioning their own orthodoxies, at heart, these are attempts at inclusion and understanding, at bringing us towards a more empathetic society. Democratic policies overall seek to integrate migrants into our society and to extend healthcare rights to those in poverty and to enshrine in law the rights of women’s autonomy over healthcare decisions that affect their bodies.

When I hear Trump talk despairingly of documented and undocumented migrants, I think of the story from the Christian gospels, of Jesus’ parents sneaking him out of their home country, for fear of his life, into Egypt, the holy family poor migrants in a foreign land. When I think of the ways that Trump sought in his first administration to destroy the Affordable Care Act, when I think of the ways his Supreme Court nominees have curtailed women’s healthcare rights in a country where we lag far behind every one of our peer nations in maternal mortality, I think of Jesus the Healer, who tended not merely to the spiritual needs of the people he encountered but often, to their bodies, to the blind, to the woman who’d been sick for years. When I hear the ways that Trump castigates and threatens his political opponents, as he seeks to divide the nation, I think of Jesus’ admonition to “love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.”

A friend recently brought to mind again a quote from the poet Maxine Kumin, who said, “It is important to act as if bearing witness matters.” As I step into the booth next week to cast my vote, I intend to bear witness to my faith as a Christian. I will enact what little witness has been given to me to bear here in Tennessee.

I intend to bear witness against hate, against divisive and unnecessary fear, against race-baiting and division. I intend to bear witness for the hope that we can do better as a nation, that we can move forward to acknowledge the deep wounds of the violence of our past, to reckon with our ghosts, and to choose together a better path forward.

When we act as if our bearing witness matters, it does.


Mike
 
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That’s great. I hope he can be unburdened by what has been.
 
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quote:
I think of the ways his Supreme Court nominees have curtailed women’s healthcare rights i


Why can't they just say murdering the unborn???? That's what it is. It has nothing to do with a female with appendicitis.....



.
 
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Trump has no Christian values. Trump has Trump values….


Vote Trump- Putin’s best friend…
To quote a former AND CURRENT Trumpiteer - DUMP TRUMP
 
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Unfortunately the rightness forgot a few of the Ten Commandments..
 
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Thanks for the post MJ.

They totally reflect my own Christian faith and thoughts.

If people really take a careful look a the gospels, they will appreciate why I say that Jesus was a Radical liberal. I do not mean this in a political sense but in terms of our compassion, spiritual awareness and how we treat each other.

The ten commandments from Genesis or the summarised two commandments form the gospels are only a small part that validate this view. Several of Jesus' teachings support this sentiment - such as the parable of the Good Samaritan, the Sermon on the Mount and much more.

I grew up in India which is a land of Religions. 30+ years ago and before that, atheism was virtually unknown in Indian main stream. Everyone had a religion, all government forms, school & college forms required you to state your religion.

I soon realised that religion was a cultural construct and at university I even studies this in great depth.

That taught me the difference between religion and personal faith. I began to understand that personal faith was spiritual in nature and could not be defined logically.

Religion was purely cultural and a social label. That is how I view the American evangelicals. The Southern Baptist Church is so politically sensitive that it seceded from the International Baptist Union 20+ years ago because some African leaders criticised the US for its lack of support for African countries against oppressive regimes.

More recently the Southern Baptists excommunicated two churches for appointing female pastors.

Personal spiritual reflections cannot be explained in rational logical terms. This is the same with fellowship among friends or strangers. We may go on safari or travel on vacation and experience spiritual or emotional connections that defy logic.

Hearing the angry rhetoric and reading about it or arguing about it here only confirms my convictions that Jesus definitely would not approve of such a lack of basic human empathy and compassion.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
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quote:
Originally posted by JTEX:
quote:
I think of the ways his Supreme Court nominees have curtailed women’s healthcare rights i


Why can't they just say murdering the unborn???? That's what it is. It has nothing to do with a female with appendicitis.....



.


Because it is not that simple as Texas has shown us since Dobbs.
 
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https://www.brookings.edu/arti...,(21%25%20in%202020).

https://www.pewresearch.org/sh...-abortion-in-the-us/

Abortion has been made into a political football.

if you look at the stats, you will see that a very high % of abortions are early term and for people with major socio economic AND health issues. A vast majority are in their 20s or younger.

Political stunts that restrict the availability of contraception only worsens the misery of young poorer women.

Abortion rates today are at the same level as around 1975! They are about 40% less than in 1990.

Some social studies conducted in the 1980s showed that sexual activity among teenagers was constant across church goers and non-church goers.

Similar studies also showed that a significant percentage of abortion cases were among Christians.

quote:
Originally posted by LHeym500:
quote:
Originally posted by JTEX:
quote:
I think of the ways his Supreme Court nominees have curtailed women’s healthcare rights i


Why can't they just say murdering the unborn???? That's what it is. It has nothing to do with a female with appendicitis.....



.


Because it is not that simple as Texas has shown us since Dobbs.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
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There is a 50.1 chance he will win!

Not because he is any better, just because the opposition is so bad! jumping


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https://biblehub.com/esv/galatians/5.htm

Seems evident that Trump promotes the Sins of the Flesh.
 
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But your Christian faith forces you to offer rewards to report your neighbors having an abortion! jumping


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quote:
Originally posted by JTEX:
quote:
I think of the ways his Supreme Court nominees have curtailed women’s healthcare rights i


Why can't they just say murdering the unborn???? That's what it is. It has nothing to do with a female with appendicitis......


quote:
Mother Teresa:
“I feel that the greatest destroyer of peace today is abortion, because it is a war against the child, a direct killing of the innocent child, murder by the mother herself.” If we accept that a mother can kill her own child, how can we tell other people not to kill one another?”


https://x.com/jeremytate41/sta...104564092567649?s=46

A good thread^^^to read as well.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
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Rubbish....

A choice left best in the hands of the people directly involved, not you, not the state, but the mother and father.

What is tearing the fabric of society apart is you far right fringe folks that feel your religion should be imposed upon the rest of us.

Don't like abortion? Then don't get one.

You can't stop abortion; you can only stop safe abortion.
 
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"Most people believe the media is biased. Anyone who doesn’t see this is paying scant attention to reality, and those who fight reality lose. Reality is an undefeated champion. It would be easy to blame others for our long and continuing fall in credibility (and, therefore, decline in impact), but a victim mentality will not help. Complaining is not a strategy. We must work harder to control what we can control to increase our credibility."

Jeff Bezos WaPo
 
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quote:
Originally posted by tomahawker:
"Most people believe the media is biased. Anyone who doesn’t see this is paying scant attention to reality, and those who fight reality lose. Reality is an undefeated champion. It would be easy to blame others for our long and continuing fall in credibility (and, therefore, decline in impact), but a victim mentality will not help. Complaining is not a strategy. We must work harder to control what we can control to increase our credibility."

Jeff Bezos WaPo


This was Bezos' excuse for preventing the WAPO from endorsing Harris for POTUS. He's scared that trump will come after him and Amazon. Over 200,000 people have canceled their subscriptions in protest.

https://www.npr.org/2024/10/28...lations-resignations


-Every damn thing is your own fault if you are any good.

 
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A first step to increasing credibility would be to not support a lying, cheating, philandering, fraud who has been convicted of multiple felonies and attempted to steal an election.

Supporting a criminal with the morals of an alley cat does not lead to credibility in my mind.
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Rubbish....

A choice left best in the hands of the people directly involved, not you, not the state, but the mother and father.

What is tearing the fabric of society apart is you far right fringe folks that feel your religion should be imposed upon the rest of us.

Don't like abortion? Then don't get one.

You can't stop abortion; you can only stop safe abortion.


I am sure Teresa would love you still Steve and pray for your salvation.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38510 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Rubbish....

A choice left best in the hands of the people directly involved, not you, not the state, but the mother and father.

What is tearing the fabric of society apart is you far right fringe folks that feel your religion should be imposed upon the rest of us.

Don't like abortion? Then don't get one.

You can't stop abortion; you can only stop safe abortion.


I am sure Teresa would love you still Steve and pray for your salvation.


The feeling would be mutual, I'm sure. Big Grin
 
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Rubbish....

A choice left best in the hands of the people directly involved, not you, not the state, but the mother and father.

What is tearing the fabric of society apart is you far right fringe folks that feel your religion should be imposed upon the rest of us.

Don't like abortion? Then don't get one.

You can't stop abortion; you can only stop safe abortion.


You mean the lefties commie ideas are helping??

Hahahaha! jumping


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quote:
I am sure Teresa would love you still Steve and pray for your salvation.


Did you know that President Reagan and Mrs. Reagan presented the Medal of Freedom to Mother Teresa in 1985?

Ronald Reagan Presidential Library (.gov)
https://www.reaganlibrary.gov › reagan-administration

https://youtu.be/X2JEq04iqsg?si=Pa8his3nZSun8uZD
Trump claims Medal of Freedom is 'much better' than Medal of Honor

Trump also gave the award to Rush Limbaugh, Devin Nunes, Jim Jordon, Elvis, etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...rded_by_Donald_Trump

============================================

Did you know that Mother Teresa won the Nobel Peace Prize?

Obama also won it.

Trump was nominated but didn't win.

Here's what Obama had to say:

In fact, Obama did wind up winning the award that year. Upon learning the news, Obama said he was “both surprised and deeply humbled by the decision of the Nobel Committee.”

“Let me be clear: I do not view it as a recognition of my own accomplishments, but rather as an affirmation of American leadership on behalf of aspirations held by people in all nations,” Obama said on Oct. 9, 2009. “To be honest, I do not feel that I deserve to be in the company of so many of the transformative figures who’ve been honored by this prize — men and women who’ve inspired me and inspired the entire world through their courageous pursuit of peace.”

Here's what Trump said about being nominated:

“I’m the only man that got nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize and I didn’t get any press,” Trump said at a rally on Sept. 21 in Ohio. “They wouldn’t. For two of them. Last week, I’m not bragging about it, I’m just saying, I’m the president of the United States because of Kosovo-Serbia, they’ve been killing each other for years, I worked out a deal for them. I got nominated. And then Israel with Bahrain and UAE, and many more to come. I mean, they all want to do it. We’ll have peace in the Middle East without blood all over the sand. No blood. We’re going to have peace in the Middle East. So I was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.”

https://www.factcheck.org/2020...umps-nobel-nonsense/

Trump’s Nobel Nonsense
By Robert Farley

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/w...or-nobel-peace-prize

Far-right Norwegian lawmaker nominates Trump for Nobel Peace Prize
World Sep 9, 2020 11:15 AM EDT

Posted on September 23, 2020


*************
Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks"

D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal.



 
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Yep…she was a treasure and spot on with her assessment!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38510 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Nah, religious zealots win hands down.

How many 10's of millions killed over religion? Just look at the ME in the past year.
 
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Isn't interesting to see just how many people are controlled by religious superstitions and rules based solely on human's obsession in "faith".
Take a look at history. More people died or were killed in the name of religion than in all the wars. Think Jews in WWII, mid-eastern people during the Crusades, and the Spanish Inquisition. And yet, we still pray to pieces of wood or plaster!
(Pissed off yet, folks?)
 
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Steve, you beat me by mere minutes!
 
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Back to the topic ....


A few questions

1. Why are so many of the so called "Evangelical Christians" in the US supporting Trump so blindly?
2. Why are the so called "Evangelical Christians" against women in general and treat them as subservient?
3. Why are so called "Evangelical Christians" racist in their beliefs, conduct and even Theology? The Southern Baptist church, some other southern churches and the LDS all had a theological position that the blacks were descendants of the murderer Cain. This was the OFFICIAL norm until as recently as the 1990s.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
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Nowdays, its worth understanding that for the most part, religious persons of any group, have to live in and abide by secular societies rules.In the west at least.
Thats an important idea.

I find it surprising that many of you are surprised yourself that any such group would wish a little more control over society as a group.
That they can do so is actually an important part of democracy. That they get very little traction as a whole is also part of the same democracy.
 
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I'm not surprised at all. Religious zealots have only one trajectory, more zealotry.

The only thing curbing them is the secular constitution and the Founder's intentional separation of church and state.

An important idea is that Democracy itself is secular by definition. A certain amount of deference to religion in society is part of it. But the deference isn't mutual in respect with religious zealots. Deference is defined as Respectful Submission.


*************
Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks"

D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal.



 
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That defines us all. Until It doesn't.
 
Posts: 4852 | Location: South Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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I don't know about NZ, but it defines the USA, until it doesn't.

That's what is at stake.


*************
Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks"

D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal.



 
Posts: 21857 | Location: Depends on the Season | Registered: 17 February 2017Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Back to the topic ....


A few questions

1. Why are so many of the so called "Evangelical Christians" in the US supporting Trump so blindly?
2. Why are the so called "Evangelical Christians" against women in general and treat them as subservient?
3. Why are so called "Evangelical Christians" racist in their beliefs, conduct and even Theology? The Southern Baptist church, some other southern churches and the LDS all had a theological position that the blacks were descendants of the murderer Cain. This was the OFFICIAL norm until as recently as the 1990s.

These questions are easily answered.
1. Nutbars
2. Wackadoodles
3. Full tilt loonies
Once you accept that a portion of the population is nuts, you are on your way to true understanding.
The same answers apply to question like:
Why do liberals think it's a good idea to provide free drugs to drug addicts?
Why do liberals think it is a good idea to expose elementary school children to pornography?
Why do liberals think it is a good idea decriminalize illegal immigration?
Same answers apply. This makes for a workable, though simplistic, world view. Regards, Bill.
 
Posts: 3856 | Location: Elko, B.C. Canada | Registered: 19 June 2000Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Back to the topic ....


A few questions

1. Why are so many of the so called "Evangelical Christians" in the US supporting Trump so blindly?
I don’t know that a majority do.
2. Why are the so called "Evangelical Christians" against women in general and treat them as subservient?
You seem to view opposing abortion to “being subservient”. Most of the vociferously pro life people I know are women.
3. Why are so called "Evangelical Christians" racist in their beliefs, conduct and even Theology? The Southern Baptist church, some other southern churches and the LDS all had a theological position that the blacks were descendants of the murderer Cain. This was the OFFICIAL norm until as recently as the 1990s.
You are linking a subgroup and then stating that is representative of all of them.

Try this.

Why are you a racist who believes blacks are descended from Cain?

You’ve clearly stated that you are a Christian. Being evangelical is in the Bible.

Why are you supporting this?

The answer is while some may have supported it, the majority don’t. You yourself admitted here they removed this at least 30 years ago, and the way these things work that meant the majority didn’t believe that for quite some time before that.

Do some belive that way? I am sure so, but they are hardly the majority.

Your demonization of anyone who doesn’t agree with you doesn’t help and is disingenuous as to a proper debate.
 
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quote:
a portion of the population is nuts


Demonstrated here daiy!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38510 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
a portion of the population is nuts


Demonstrated here daiy!


I try to call you out on it but there is only so many hours in a day Big Grin
 
Posts: 1479 | Location: Boulder mountains | Registered: 09 February 2024Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
a portion of the population is nuts


Demonstrated here daiy!


I try to call you out on it but there is only so many hours in a day Big Grin


See, the nuts don’t even try to hide their nuttiness any longer^^^they freely admit to it.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
J. Lane Easter, DVM

A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House

No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991.
 
Posts: 38510 | Location: Gainesville, TX | Registered: 24 December 2006Reply With Quote
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Doc

Once again you are factually off the cliff

1. It is well known that the Evangelical voting bloc is for trump. That is a MAJORITY. Major "Evangelical Leaders" like Franklin Graham and many others Support Trump on stage and in public

https://www.npr.org/2024/10/29...ngelicals-for-harris


Doc, I am drawing your attention to this particular quote

"SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: So white evangelical voters overall are a shrinking part of the population, but they turn out in outsize numbers, and they reliably turn out for Republicans by and large. So, according to the Public religion Research Institute, white evangelicals make up less than 15% of the population, but about 25% of people who actually vote. In the last two elections, about 80% of those white evangelicals voted for Trump. "

2. Doc, once again factually you are wrong. 70% of ALL Americans are for abortion. 58% of Republicans are for abortion & the woman's right to choose. See below. there are reports that Kansas (which has not voted Democrat for almost 40 years) might just be in play as a swing state.

https://www.nytimes.com/intera...le-voters-dobbs.html

About my comment on women being subservient - I was not even thinking about abortion but I was thinking about women in leadership. Please see below in congress



The Southern Baptist church has excommunicated 2 major churches because they appointed / elected women pastors. This is the OFFICIAL policy of the LARGEST Evangelical group.

Doc, you should know that those policies were removed from the websites but not from the culture, people's beliefs, the demographic representation in the organisations etc.

I am not demonising anyone. I am asking reasonable questions based on well established facts.

Yes I am a born again Christian. I believe that the sacrifice that Jesus made on the Cross was the MOST compassionate act in human history. It was also the MOST LIBERAL act. I do not see a SINGLE element of Conservatism in the teachings of Jesus. In fact Jesus SPECIFICALLY condemned the self righteous CONSERVATIVE Pharisees etc. He called them out for being so religious and rules bound that they would tithe to the smallest level but not look after the poor or the sick.

You claim that the so called US Evangelicals are not racist in the majority. Well, just look here at those who claim that they are White Christian Nationalists!

I think you need to do some SERIOUS research and fact check before you post.

BTW I grew up listening to US missionaries who visited India in schools and churches going back to the mid 1960s. I never saw a single Black missionary. Few women. I did not even know that the US had African Americans (descended from slaves) in the mid 1960s.

The fundamental premise behind my post is the CULTURAL base of the "Evangelical Christians" community.

They form such a tight bloc only because of their beliefs and values. That is how they live their lives. You cannot spin that.

BTW, demonising is what the Right does. Accusing Democrats of being "Far Left", "Radical Left", "Communists & Socialists", "Enemy within", All the hate against Obama and his family by the Birthers etc., the hate against Kamala Harris with all the name calling right here on ARPF. Far worse, as you should know.


quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Back to the topic ....


A few questions

1. Why are so many of the so called "Evangelical Christians" in the US supporting Trump so blindly?
I don’t know that a majority do.
2. Why are the so called "Evangelical Christians" against women in general and treat them as subservient?
You seem to view opposing abortion to “being subservient”. Most of the vociferously pro life people I know are women.
3. Why are so called "Evangelical Christians" racist in their beliefs, conduct and even Theology? The Southern Baptist church, some other southern churches and the LDS all had a theological position that the blacks were descendants of the murderer Cain. This was the OFFICIAL norm until as recently as the 1990s.
You are linking a subgroup and then stating that is representative of all of them.

Try this.

Why are you a racist who believes blacks are descended from Cain?

You’ve clearly stated that you are a Christian. Being evangelical is in the Bible.

Why are you supporting this?

The answer is while some may have supported it, the majority don’t. You yourself admitted here they removed this at least 30 years ago, and the way these things work that meant the majority didn’t believe that for quite some time before that.

Do some belive that way? I am sure so, but they are hardly the majority.

Your demonization of anyone who doesn’t agree with you doesn’t help and is disingenuous as to a proper debate.


"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick."
 
Posts: 11407 | Location: New Zealand | Registered: 02 July 2008Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Back to the topic ....


A few questions

1. Why are so many of the so called "Evangelical Christians" in the US supporting Trump so blindly?
2. Why are the so called "Evangelical Christians" against women in general and treat them as subservient?
3. Why are so called "Evangelical Christians" racist in their beliefs, conduct and even Theology? The Southern Baptist church, some other southern churches and the LDS all had a theological position that the blacks were descendants of the murderer Cain. This was the OFFICIAL norm until as recently as the 1990s.

These questions are easily answered.
1. Nutbars
2. Wackadoodles
3. Full tilt loonies
Once you accept that a portion of the population is nuts, you are on your way to true understanding.
The same answers apply to question like:
Why do liberals think it's a good idea to provide free drugs to drug addicts?
Why do liberals think it is a good idea to expose elementary school children to pornography?
Why do liberals think it is a good idea decriminalize illegal immigration?
Same answers apply. This makes for a workable, though simplistic, world view. Regards, Bill.


I don't like getting in the middle of this argument, but I think your answers above are not answers at all.

I think you demonstrated "a workable, though simplistic, world view". You made a false equivalence, and your examples are so flawed, stated as facts and conclusions, while being false themselves. The truth is nuanced.

It is my humble opinion that neither you nor Doc know what you are talking about.

Naki is right.

Every so-deemed evangelical and more that I know support Trump, so do the 4-5 preachers I know. Naki is correct with the stats. Why they support Trump is another question, but they do. There is no way Trump could win if not for the Evangelical, Christian Nationalists and other Christian support.

Naki is correct - some churches have been expelled or voluntarily withdrew from the Southern Baptist group due to having women pastors. All my life, especially youth, the teachings were women's place is subservient.

When I was young, many church members believed Blacks had no soul. They didn't teach that in church as I recall, but they didn't un-teach it either. Churches were segregated, strictly. I remember an incident where one Black church had a picture of a black Jesus. The white churches were outraged. So was the KKK.


*************
Real conservatives aren't radicalized. Thus "radicalized conservative" is an oxymoron. Yet there are many radicalized republicans.

"When fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Per my far-right friend: "reality sucks"

D.J. Trump aka Trumpism's Founding Farter, aka Farter Martyr. Qualifications: flatulence - mental, oral and anal.



 
Posts: 21857 | Location: Depends on the Season | Registered: 17 February 2017Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
I kind of wonder... Who should the evangelicals vote for?

Or should they be barred from voting in your view?

Should religion be made illegal?

Whats the correct answer?
 
Posts: 4852 | Location: South Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
I don't know about NZ, but it defines the USA, until it doesn't.

That's what is at stake.


We both know that and are not far apart in opinion on that.

I just think that the left has done an appalling job of preventing it, as much as the right has done an appalling job in allowing it.
Preventing might not be quite the right word. But the blind, arrogant path they have gone down will more likely see them loose this election I feel.
 
Posts: 4852 | Location: South Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
ME, Naki.

I want you both to watch this, and someone quote me so that Naki sees it.

This is what I have been saying for along time. But you can ignore me. Nial Fergusson is harder to ignore.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niall_Ferguson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUJMyTJ9gyI&t=745s
 
Posts: 4852 | Location: South Island NZ | Registered: 21 July 2008Reply With Quote
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posted Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Doc

Once again you are factually off the cliff

1. It is well known that the Evangelical voting bloc is for trump. That is a MAJORITY. Major "Evangelical Leaders" like Franklin Graham and many others Support Trump on stage and in public

https://www.npr.org/2024/10/29...ngelicals-for-harris


Doc, I am drawing your attention to this particular quote

"SARAH MCCAMMON, BYLINE: So white evangelical voters overall are a shrinking part of the population, but they turn out in outsize numbers, and they reliably turn out for Republicans by and large. So, according to the Public religion Research Institute, white evangelicals make up less than 15% of the population, but about 25% of people who actually vote. In the last two elections, about 80% of those white evangelicals voted for Trump. "

Technically, all christians are evangelical.

Depends on how you define evangelical. I get what subgroup you are blaming, but the point is that it is a subgroup of Christians that is rather hard to define explicitly.



2. Doc, once again factually you are wrong. 70% of ALL Americans are for abortion. 58% of Republicans are for abortion & the woman's right to choose. See below. there are reports that Kansas (which has not voted Democrat for almost 40 years) might just be in play as a swing state.

https://www.nytimes.com/intera...le-voters-dobbs.html

Classically when folks talk about women losing rights and being subservient, the only thing they are talking about is abortion and "reproductive rights". The desire to legalize abortion is on a continuum. Some (very few) want it legal until birth. A similar group want it illegal at all. The vast majority dislike it but don't want the procedure to be entirely illegal, they want it regulated to some extent.

About my comment on women being subservient - I was not even thinking about abortion but I was thinking about women in leadership. Please see below in congress



The Southern Baptist church has excommunicated 2 major churches because they appointed / elected women pastors. This is the OFFICIAL policy of the LARGEST Evangelical group.

Doc, you should know that those policies were removed from the websites but not from the culture, people's beliefs, the demographic representation in the organisations etc.

Those policies were removed from dogma because they are not agreed to by the majority of the people in the group. Look at how you are characterizing these folks. If they think the way you are claiming, they wouldn't give a damn about what the "heathen" think of them.

I am not demonising anyone. I am asking reasonable questions based on well established facts.

Yes you are. You are taking a few people and trying to extend the views of some of them to be typical of them all.

Yes I am a born again Christian. I believe that the sacrifice that Jesus made on the Cross was the MOST compassionate act in human history. It was also the MOST LIBERAL act. I do not see a SINGLE element of Conservatism in the teachings of Jesus. In fact Jesus SPECIFICALLY condemned the self righteous CONSERVATIVE Pharisees etc. He called them out for being so religious and rules bound that they would tithe to the smallest level but not look after the poor or the sick.
You might want to look at the bible a bit more. Jesus also told us to look to ourselves. He condemned the hypocrites.

You claim that the so called US Evangelicals are not racist in the majority. Well, just look here at those who claim that they are White Christian Nationalists!

I am stating that the majority of Christians in the US are not racist. Your definition of "evangelical" is what is raising my hackles.

I think you need to do some SERIOUS research and fact check before you post.

You need to be a bit less biased when you try to quote information.

BTW I grew up listening to US missionaries who visited India in schools and churches going back to the mid 1960s. I never saw a single Black missionary. Few women. I did not even know that the US had African Americans (descended from slaves) in the mid 1960s.

I remember in Sunday school the missionaries coming and talking about mission work and asking us to donate our dimes to spreading the word of Jesus. I have friends who go on medical missionary trips to Africa with some regularity. Most of the missionaries were men because it was not viewed as being particularly safe. We still hear of missionaries killed with some regularity. Women tend to be a bit more risk adverse than men. It is what it is.

The fundamental premise behind my post is the CULTURAL base of the "Evangelical Christians" community.

In your opinion .

Firstly, as I pointed out, all Christians are evangelical (spread the word...) so you are choosing a subgroup of Christians that hardly is a majority of US Christians. Depending on the poll and how the question is worded, the majority of Americans consider themselves Christians of some sort.

They form such a tight bloc only because of their beliefs and values. That is how they live their lives. You cannot spin that.

BTW, demonising is what the Right does. Accusing Democrats of being "Far Left", "Radical Left", "Communists & Socialists", "Enemy within", All the hate against Obama and his family by the Birthers etc., the hate against Kamala Harris with all the name calling right here on ARPF. Far worse, as you should know.

You are not quite correct. The extremists on both sides are name calling and "hateful" Substitute "far right" "Evangelicals" "White Christian Nationalists" "Fascists" and comparing Trump/Bush to Hitler and name calling right here on ARPF. The left is every bit as much propagandizing and labeling as the right. See your own diatribe above.


quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Back to the topic ....


A few questions

1. Why are so many of the so called "Evangelical Christians" in the US supporting Trump so blindly?
I don’t know that a majority do.
2. Why are the so called "Evangelical Christians" against women in general and treat them as subservient?
You seem to view opposing abortion to “being subservient”. Most of the vociferously pro life people I know are women.
3. Why are so called "Evangelical Christians" racist in their beliefs, conduct and even Theology? The Southern Baptist church, some other southern churches and the LDS all had a theological position that the blacks were descendants of the murderer Cain. This was the OFFICIAL norm until as recently as the 1990s.
You are linking a subgroup and then stating that is representative of all of them.

Try this.

Why are you a racist who believes blacks are descended from Cain?

You’ve clearly stated that you are a Christian. Being evangelical is in the Bible.

Why are you supporting this?

The answer is while some may have supported it, the majority don’t. You yourself admitted here they removed this at least 30 years ago, and the way these things work that meant the majority didn’t believe that for quite some time before that.

Do some belive that way? I am sure so, but they are hardly the majority.

Your demonization of anyone who doesn’t agree with you doesn’t help and is disingenuous as to a proper debate.
 
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