If there are 4 wet markets in the city, and the one next to the lab has the outbreak...... isn't that where the occam's razor come in?

The virus can (probably did) originate in an animal. That does not mean scientists/ humans did not do science stuff in animals thar allowed or created this thing.

I am sorry about the poker diction. I do not have a science vocabulary.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
If there are 4 wet markets in the city, and the one next to the lab has the outbreak...... isn't that where the occam's razor come in?

Where are you getting that the wet market where the outbreak occurred was next to the lab? I haven't seen that information and I don't see that mentioned in the article I posted.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The virus can (probably did) originate in an animal. That does not mean scientists/ humans did not do science stuff in animals thar allowed or created this thing.

I am sorry about the poker diction. I do not have a science vocabulary.

That's a different narrative than the one being pushed by the folks that disagree with the science.

by the way, I just read the DOE report. Their "conclusion" that it may have come from a lab was made with "low confidence." Not exactly the kind of evidence anybody can hang their hat on with any degree of certaintly.

I want to know, what the eff, the Dept. of Energy, was doing investigating it in the first place!

It was originally claimed the wet market was less then a mile from the lab, it's not, further then that. But was frequented by shoppers from the lab, as the closest wet market. That was early data. No match to the virus was found in the animals at that, or other markets tested. This is what is released by China, and the few whistle blowers, for what it's worth.

Many of the animals were shipped, by the same carrier, so there should be some overlap in finding the virus at other markets animals.
I highly doubt it was an intentional release. I have less doubt that it didnt walk out the door of the lab to the market on a worker.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
It was originally claimed the wet market was less then a mile from the lab, it's not, further then that. But was frequented by shoppers from the lab, as the closest wet market. That was early data. No match to the virus was found in the animals at that, or other markets tested. This is what is released by China, and the few whistle blowers, for what it's worth.

Many of the animals were shipped, by the same carrier, so there should be some overlap in finding the virus at other markets animals.
I highly doubt it was an intentional release. I have less doubt that it didnt walk out the door of the lab to the market on a worker.

I've never seen any evidence that the virus emanated from a lab. Zero. Can you point me to some?

Do a search on wuhan lab leak. That will bring up a trove. It's a believe what you want type of thing. No concrete proof either way, animal or lab leak.

Head of the FBI says likely Lab Leak.

Good enough for me.

https://www.reuters.com/busine...pandemic-2023-03-01/

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Do a search on wuhan lab leak. That will bring up a trove. It's a believe what you want type of thing. No concrete proof either way, animal or lab leak.

Yeah, my point. Virtually all of the commentary supporting the lab leak theory is political, not scientific, in nature.

But, when it comes to science versus politics, I'm going science pretty much every time.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Head of the FBI says likely Lab Leak.

Good enough for me.

https://www.reuters.com/busine...pandemic-2023-03-01/

I'm guessing the DOE report was based on the FBI investigation? Again, I don't know and don't profess to be qualified, unlike other folks here, to say one way or the other. All I know is that the scientists and virologists who spend their lives studying this kind of thing seem to be close to unanimity that the origin was animal-based. If the FBI has contrary info, they ought to release the info.

Nope,
There were three workers from the lab that landed in the hospital with covid type symptoms, from Nov 19, before the outbreak. Reported by the BBC.
Trump had a team to look into it. When Biden took over, he cancelled that order. Never could find a reason why.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Head of the FBI says likely Lab Leak.

Good enough for me.

https://www.reuters.com/busine...pandemic-2023-03-01/

I'm guessing the DOE report was based on the FBI investigation? Again, I don't know and don't profess to be qualified, unlike other folks here, to say one way or the other. All I know is that the scientists and virologists who spend their lives studying this kind of thing seem to be close to unanimity that the origin was animal-based. If the FBI has contrary info, they ought to release the info.

And what makes you think the “science” isn’t influenced by politics? We see it everywhere, due to government funding.

There is a term I am sure all of you are familiar with: FAFO. Right?

Maybe this will be a wake up call to STOP experimenting and calling it 'gain of function' or what ever label they want to put on it. These things are done and conjured up to be weapons of mass destruction.

I have said all along this was a laboratory creation. These diseases are engineered to kill people, not save them. I would not be surprised if HIV , Ebola and a few other 'recent' super viruses were also man made.

From a military standpoint spreading disease is far more beneficial. Infrastructure is not destroyed nearly as much as a nuclear option.

I'll also wager our own US govt was in on this and that is another reason we see a weak if not absent call for China to fess up and be responsible.

As I have always said, this whole situation was about power and money. I believe there is a lot more to this. We will never know the entire truth. Damn sad considering all the loved ones who have suffered and will suffer in the future.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
Nope,
There were three workers from the lab that landed in the hospital with covid type symptoms, from Nov 19, before the outbreak. Reported by the BBC.
Trump had a team to look into it. When Biden took over, he cancelled that order. Never could find a reason why.

Trump was on it, huh?

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Head of the FBI says likely Lab Leak.

Good enough for me.

https://www.reuters.com/busine...pandemic-2023-03-01/

I'm guessing the DOE report was based on the FBI investigation? Again, I don't know and don't profess to be qualified, unlike other folks here, to say one way or the other. All I know is that the scientists and virologists who spend their lives studying this kind of thing seem to be close to unanimity that the origin was animal-based. If the FBI has contrary info, they ought to release the info.

And what makes you think the “science” isn’t influenced by politics? We see it everywhere, due to government funding.

Show me one piece of credible evidence that the virus came from Chinese government labs.

Trump had a team looking into it, as part of the origins search. Biden shut it down.
Not sure what there is to dance about, but if it makes you feel better.
A good bit of conflicting info has been pushed aside. There has been one naritive pushed for a long time. At this point, I'm not sure it matters all that much. we will never really know why the gov does some of the cover ups they do.
Why did Biden and his admin. push the Border Patrol agents whipping migrants story? They were told by the photographer that was not what happened. They continued to push the story. Somewhere they decided it would do them some good for their agenda.
Hard to know for sure.

quote:

Virtually all of the commentary supporting the lab leak theory is political, not scientific, in nature.

But, when it comes to science versus politics, I'm going science pretty much every time.

OK, as a little mental exercise, put politics aside snd simply look critically at the discovery, geography, and timeline of the outbreak.

Is it a stretch to think that if this was a naturally occurring virus it would have been identified as a bat virome ages ago considering that the folks in the Central China region have been handling and consuming wild animals since time began?

If it is naturally occurring in a wild animal of some sort, why did the outbreak originate from one single market in Wuhan?
Why, one may ask, has SARS-CoV-2 NOT been identified in any wild animal population?

From a recent NYT article:

"The lab leak hypothesis is bolstered, the report said, by the absence of any published evidence that SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes Covid-19, was circulating in animals before the pandemic. Samples of virus collected on refrigerators, countertops and other surfaces at the Huanan market were genetically similar to human samples, suggesting the virus was shed by humans, not animals, it said."

Then other experts rebut:

"...the inability to find an infected animal did not prove anything, because China shut down the market and killed all of its animals before they could be tested."

WHAT??!!

So the animals in the market were destroyed and that is what they claim is the explanation for NOT finding the virus in the wild?
Makes zero sense...

MIT published:

"the intermediate-host hypothesis has one big problem. More than a year after covid-19 began, no food animal has been identified as a reservoir for the pandemic virus. That’s despite efforts by China to test tens of thousands of animals, including pigs, goats, and geese, according to Liang Wannian, who leads the Chinese side of the research team. No one has found a “direct progenitor” of the virus..."

I honestly don't know how one can conclude that the SARS-CoV-2 virus originated in nature as no evidence that it occurs naturally exists...

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Head of the FBI says likely Lab Leak.

Good enough for me.

https://www.reuters.com/busine...pandemic-2023-03-01/

I'm guessing the DOE report was based on the FBI investigation? Again, I don't know and don't profess to be qualified, unlike other folks here, to say one way or the other. All I know is that the scientists and virologists who spend their lives studying this kind of thing seem to be close to unanimity that the origin was animal-based. If the FBI has contrary info, they ought to release the info.

And what makes you think the “science” isn’t influenced by politics? We see it everywhere, due to government funding.

Show me one piece of credible evidence that the virus came from Chinese government labs.

When did I say that? And I’m curious why you so fervently defend the Chinese government? What I said is that scientists results have been, and always will be, influenced by politics. Not in every instance, but to believe otherwise would show your naïveté.

I guess that is the rub. Science, in large part because of the obstruction of the Chinese, cannot say with consensus or certainty how the virus came to be.

So much of the it bring pure nature has to take faith in the Chinese position. Again, everyone agrees they are not being forth coming.

I believe the disease was here much earlier prior to detection because schools act so is my state prior to Official Covid were being shutdown for illness that was Covid like, but everyone tested negative for flu and strip. My opinion.

I treat the Chinese Government like the Russian Government, if they said my name was Joshua, I would respond, “My name is Jake.”

I will trust my government on this. I note the White House announced last week that no Federal Consensus of virus origin had been reached.

I know in the 80s the US was playing with pathogen weapons of war because the Feds
said so.

I believe the virus is “animal based.” Just that Chinese folks in white coats helped it happen.

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Head of the FBI says likely Lab Leak.

Good enough for me.

https://www.reuters.com/busine...pandemic-2023-03-01/

I'm guessing the DOE report was based on the FBI investigation? Again, I don't know and don't profess to be qualified, unlike other folks here, to say one way or the other. All I know is that the scientists and virologists who spend their lives studying this kind of thing seem to be close to unanimity that the origin was animal-based. If the FBI has contrary info, they ought to release the info.

And what makes you think the “science” isn’t influenced by politics? We see it everywhere, due to government funding.

Show me one piece of credible evidence that the virus came from Chinese government labs.

When did I say that? And I’m curious why you so fervently defend the Chinese government? What I said is that scientists results have been, and always will be, influenced by politics. Not in every instance, but to believe otherwise would show your naïveté.

I'm curious as to why you think I am defending the Chinese government. I'm just wondering where the evidence and facts are that support any theory that the virus originated in a lab.

I gather you have no such evidence or facts?

quote:

I'm curious as to why you think I am defending the Chinese government. I'm just wondering where the evidence and facts are that support any theory that the virus originated in a lab.

Mike, is it that you don't understand what a gain of function laboratory is doing? There were several workers from that lab who got sick and ran around in public. There are Chinese scientists, who I believe are now 'disappeared', that said in public, on camera, what happened.

Why is this not hard for me to believe? Because when something so 'novel' that spreads so fast, something never heard of before should be your first clue. As I have stated before, I do not believe such things are new. I think a lot of 'new' diseases in fact did emerge from bio labs.

You also have to keep in mind that in such places as China, etc, they have been eating all sorts of wildlife for their entire history, including bats. Now suddenly bats have a virus that crossed over to infecting humans? Not likely without manipulation.

Some of these places are making sure to create more super viruses and diseases. I bet Anthrax is another still on the list of manipulation. None of this is being done for fun or the premise to save people. This is all being done to kill large populations. Always has been.

quote:

Originally posted by Aspen Hill Adventures:

quote:

I'm curious as to why you think I am defending the Chinese government. I'm just wondering where the evidence and facts are that support any theory that the virus originated in a lab.

Mike, is it that you don't understand what a gain of function laboratory is doing? There were several workers from that lab who got sick and ran around in public. There are Chinese scientists, who I believe are now 'disappeared', that said in public, on camera, what happened.

Why is this not hard for me to believe? Because when something so 'novel' that spreads so fast, something never heard of before should be your first clue. As I have stated before, I do not believe such things are new. I think a lot of 'new' diseases in fact did emerge from bio labs.

You also have to keep in mind that in such places as China, etc, they have been eating all sorts of wildlife for their entire history, including bats. Now suddenly bats have a virus that crossed over to infecting humans? Not likely without manipulation.

Some of these places are making sure to create more super viruses and diseases. I bet Anthrax is another still on the list of manipulation. None of this is being done for fun or the premise to save people. This is all being done to kill large populations. Always has been.

Yes, it must just be because I'm not smart enough to understand.

Or maybe it's because while I certainly appreciate your thoughts on the topic, my question stands:

Where is there any evidence that supports your assertion? I can cite you to numerous peer-reviewed studies done by scientists and virologists to support the opinion that the virus likely emanated from animals and jumped to humans. Where is the scientific evidence that supports your assertion?

You may just need to read some materiel that doesn’t conform to your preconceived beliefs.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
Head of the FBI says likely Lab Leak.

Good enough for me.

https://www.reuters.com/busine...pandemic-2023-03-01/

I'm guessing the DOE report was based on the FBI investigation? Again, I don't know and don't profess to be qualified, unlike other folks here, to say one way or the other. All I know is that the scientists and virologists who spend their lives studying this kind of thing seem to be close to unanimity that the origin was animal-based. If the FBI has contrary info, they ought to release the info.

And what makes you think the “science” isn’t influenced by politics? We see it everywhere, due to government funding.

Show me one piece of credible evidence that the virus came from Chinese government labs.

When did I say that? And I’m curious why you so fervently defend the Chinese government? What I said is that scientists results have been, and always will be, influenced by politics. Not in every instance, but to believe otherwise would show your naïveté.

I'm curious as to why you think I am defending the Chinese government. I'm just wondering where the evidence and facts are that support any theory that the virus originated in a lab.

I gather you have no such evidence or facts?

No one knows for certain how it originated, unless it was lab leaked, and then covered up. EVERYONE that has opined on where it came from is guessing, whether a scientist, or a politician. There are plenty of scientists on both sides.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
Regardless, corona came out of China, it's actually their fault, they did it. And they're not being held accountable.

I don't get it.

+1

Doesn't anyone remember when the Chinese blocked flights and travel from Wigan to anywhere in China? But allowed flights from Wuhan to the rest of the world????

China at the very least wanted the virus to spread so that they wouldn't be the only ones hit!


.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The virus can (probably did) originate in an animal. That does not mean scientists/ humans did not do science stuff in animals thar allowed or created this thing.

I am sorry about the poker diction. I do not have a science vocabulary.

ALL corona viruses originate in animals. Even the endemic human coronaviruses were once zoonoses. For sure…the wild-type virus used to build SARS CoV-2 was an animal virus…most likely a bat virus.

However, it had RNA sequences cut and replaced via laboratory means to build this near perfectly suited human pathogen. (Not totally proven at this point but highly likely.)

This IS the reason this did not go the way of SARS and MERS as we all expected initially.