Conservative?

25 March 2025, 00:04

medved

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
And speaking of Putin, Lane, what is your explanation for why Trump is always groveling to him?

What power does Putin have over Trump?

Groveling? Haven’t seen it.

In this shrinking globe…there is a power struggle though, for who will one day govern the one-world-nation. There will be a WWIII at some point. Strategically, I think he puts us in better position for that power play. China is not interested in co-governance.

You have not seen it because your head is up Trump's ass. Witkoff sounds like the Russians gave him his talking points. It's disgusting and you are right there defending it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62zm4eqvp7o

Turning on our allies and embracing Putin is not a strategic improvement

For the record…can you name an ally that we have turned on and describe in detail how we have hurt them?

You could start with the Canadians and the trade war. Nato and undermining its effectiveness. All of the EU by justifying Russia's war in Ukraine. You have to wonder what the five eyes think as well as the Philippine's with whom we have a mutual defense pact.

But America stands strongly with Putin

You MAGAts make me sick to my stomach. Fucking traitors.

Like I said: “ can you name an ally that we have turned on and describe in detail how we have hurt them?”

canada with the tariffs wars and the threat of annexation but of course you are too blind to see that ...

25 March 2025, 07:19

JTEX

quote:
Originally posted by medved:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
And speaking of Putin, Lane, what is your explanation for why Trump is always groveling to him?

What power does Putin have over Trump?

Groveling? Haven’t seen it.

In this shrinking globe…there is a power struggle though, for who will one day govern the one-world-nation. There will be a WWIII at some point. Strategically, I think he puts us in better position for that power play. China is not interested in co-governance.

You have not seen it because your head is up Trump's ass. Witkoff sounds like the Russians gave him his talking points. It's disgusting and you are right there defending it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62zm4eqvp7o

Turning on our allies and embracing Putin is not a strategic improvement

For the record…can you name an ally that we have turned on and describe in detail how we have hurt them?

You could start with the Canadians and the trade war. Nato and undermining its effectiveness. All of the EU by justifying Russia's war in Ukraine. You have to wonder what the five eyes think as well as the Philippine's with whom we have a mutual defense pact.

But America stands strongly with Putin

You MAGAts make me sick to my stomach. Fucking traitors.

Like I said: “ can you name an ally that we have turned on and describe in detail how we have hurt them?”

canada with the tariffs wars and the threat of annexation but of course you are too blind to see that ...

Yeah.....well....that's hurt "feelings"..... so.....

.

25 March 2025, 07:22

JTEX

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
They are not Americans. They got more due process than they deserved. A rifle ball is what they needed…along with those who facilitated their entrance.

Yes, a conservative would be for sending them to an El Salvadorian prison for pennies on the dollar. DJT

And yes those whining about it are enemies of the State.

Well Doc.....this is one of the few times we disagree....

Flying them to anywhere is kinda ridiculous! March em to the halfway line on the bridge at Laredo and let old mayheeco deal with them! Old mayheeco facilitated their entry into the USA......

.

25 March 2025, 07:24

JTEX

quote:
Originally posted by jeffeosso:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
They are not Americans. They got more due process than they deserved. A rifle ball is what they needed…along with those who facilitated their entrance.

Yes, a conservative would be for sending them to an El Salvadorian prison for pennies on the dollar. DJT

And yes those whining about it are enemies of the State.

Nah, Lane, there's no need for violence -- if they are here illegally, and can't prove a right to be here, immediate deportation is ALREADY on the books ... deport em - oh, since DHS is 100% an executive branch function, and "plaintiff (with no standing)" isn't accusing of BREAKING EXISTING LAW, they have no standing-- none ..

amicus curi MAYBE

100%!!!!!

.

25 March 2025, 07:25

JTEX

quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
quote:
Originally posted by fulvio:
quote:
However, our Constitution limits what our government is allowed to do.

Your Constitution which dates back to 1787 was drawn up in different times when there was no drug trafficking or organized crime and what crime there was got handled without too much fanfare as the Human Rights & Freedom of Speech brigades were unheard of.

Fast forward to 2025: You are really of the opinion that the American Constitution should stand as it is and not be reviewed and updated to reflect current times?

Just asking

I believe the Constitution should stand as it is until it is lawfully changed. You know....the rule of law, something the GOP stood for before Trump came along.

It is not something to be followed when convenient and ignored as you please.

And something the democrat party has never agreed with......

.

25 March 2025, 16:37

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by medved:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
And speaking of Putin, Lane, what is your explanation for why Trump is always groveling to him?

What power does Putin have over Trump?

Groveling? Haven’t seen it.

In this shrinking globe…there is a power struggle though, for who will one day govern the one-world-nation. There will be a WWIII at some point. Strategically, I think he puts us in better position for that power play. China is not interested in co-governance.

You have not seen it because your head is up Trump's ass. Witkoff sounds like the Russians gave him his talking points. It's disgusting and you are right there defending it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62zm4eqvp7o

Turning on our allies and embracing Putin is not a strategic improvement

For the record…can you name an ally that we have turned on and describe in detail how we have hurt them?

You could start with the Canadians and the trade war. Nato and undermining its effectiveness. All of the EU by justifying Russia's war in Ukraine. You have to wonder what the five eyes think as well as the Philippine's with whom we have a mutual defense pact.

But America stands strongly with Putin

You MAGAts make me sick to my stomach. Fucking traitors.

Like I said: “ can you name an ally that we have turned on and describe in detail how we have hurt them?”

canada with the tariffs wars and the threat of annexation but of course you are too blind to see that ...

Explain the details of exactly how that has hurt you. Has trade historically been free, equal, fair, and reciprocal with US and Canada? Has Canada ever used protectionism against the US? While you are talking, explain how Canada isn’t much more socialistic (the precursor to becoming communist) than the US. The US owns the US market. It is our market to leverage as we see fit. Maybe remember how good of a neighbor you were the next time your country decides to openly and blatantly harbor draft dodgers as it did during Vietnam.

25 March 2025, 16:48

LHeym500

The Fuchs on “you” is misplaced. You have been shown how this Trade War hurts. You just do not care.

25 March 2025, 20:09

medved

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by medved:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
quote:
Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
And speaking of Putin, Lane, what is your explanation for why Trump is always groveling to him?

What power does Putin have over Trump?

Groveling? Haven’t seen it.

In this shrinking globe…there is a power struggle though, for who will one day govern the one-world-nation. There will be a WWIII at some point. Strategically, I think he puts us in better position for that power play. China is not interested in co-governance.

You have not seen it because your head is up Trump's ass. Witkoff sounds like the Russians gave him his talking points. It's disgusting and you are right there defending it.

https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c62zm4eqvp7o

Turning on our allies and embracing Putin is not a strategic improvement

For the record…can you name an ally that we have turned on and describe in detail how we have hurt them?

You could start with the Canadians and the trade war. Nato and undermining its effectiveness. All of the EU by justifying Russia's war in Ukraine. You have to wonder what the five eyes think as well as the Philippine's with whom we have a mutual defense pact.

But America stands strongly with Putin

You MAGAts make me sick to my stomach. Fucking traitors.

Like I said: “ can you name an ally that we have turned on and describe in detail how we have hurt them?”

canada with the tariffs wars and the threat of annexation but of course you are too blind to see that ...

Explain the details of exactly how that has hurt you. Has trade historically been free, equal, fair, and reciprocal with US and Canada? Has Canada ever used protectionism against the US? While you are talking, explain how Canada isn’t much more socialistic (the precursor to becoming communist) than the US. The US owns the US market. It is our market to leverage as we see fit. Maybe remember how good of a neighbor you were the next time your country decides to openly and blatantly harbor draft dodgers as it did during Vietnam.

you do what you want in our own country.

last time negociations happened between canada mexico and usa who did that and signed them your actual supreme leader ...

you are right we are more socialistic than you but in the mean time your country became more facistic than you dream about and now the most hilarious about vietnam war where you supreme leader was during that time? did he served your country or avoided it?

now if you agree about the annexation of canada or greenland because of your own interests then you showed your true colors ...
for protectionnism sorry but usa is doing the same but i have not a problem for you shopping elsewhere ... it will hurt both countries but as myself i will volunteer my conservative canditate to make sure we are getting off the most of the us markets we can and the fastest we can.

now educate yourself and read the leftist cnn post about canada and usa it might open your eyes even not your brain.

https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/12...da-claims/index.html

25 March 2025, 20:33

Bill Leeper

Lane, every person is affected by a trade war, a trade war in which I think Canada is foolish to engage, by the way. If Trump wishes to apply tariffs, seek other markets. Trump has betrayed a trust and reneged on his own treaty.
Canada may well be more socialist (it provides health care for its residents, for instance) but the difference for people living in the two countries, apart from that, is minor and becomes more minor as time goes on.
Please explain exactly how the harboring of draft dodgers negatively affected you personally. That was a symptom related to the time and the circumstances. Your outrage is contrived. Regards, Bill.

25 March 2025, 22:55

crbutler

While I agree that Trump’s trade war efforts harm Canada, the talk (to give it more import than it has) of allowing Canada to join the Union (or annex it) is not something that can go anywhere unless Canada wants it.

That’s more a hurt feelings item. Unnecessary hurt feelings, and inappropriate but not areal threat to Canada.

25 March 2025, 23:03

Tumbleweed

quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
While I agree that Trump’s trade war efforts harm Canada, the talk (to give it more import than it has) of allowing Canada to join the Union (or annex it) is not something that can go anywhere unless Canada wants it.

That’s more a hurt feelings item. Unnecessary hurt feelings, and inappropriate but not areal threat to Canada.

That’s what they said about Poland in 1939. Trump has made his intentions perfectly clear. I’m not laying down for that treacherous psychopathic sonofabitch, and neither are millions of other Canadians. You can gloss over it all you want. Fuck you, fuck Trump and fuck your “Union”.
I’m assuming you’d die for your country, and I’m equally committed to dying for mine.

25 March 2025, 23:42

ledvm

More butt hurt and zero facts on why the USA should not leverage its market to benefit Americans the most. Only idiots throw around the term fascist. But we can all agree that Canada is closer to communism than the USA will ever be.

I was too young to go to Vietnam but I had several family members drafted and couple of which never back. One was cousin who was like my older brother. My family watched the news every night in those days to hear updates about the war. Every night it was ingrained in my mind of how Canada harbored draft dodgers. Trump never dodged the draft…he got legal deferments. I had family members who got that as well. If it’s legal…it’s legal. Time the USA quits sending money around the world and fully leverages its market to benefit Americans.

25 March 2025, 23:55

medved

quote:
Originally posted by Tumbleweed:

That’s what they said about Poland in 1939. Trump has made his intentions perfectly clear. I’m not laying down for that treacherous psychopathic sonofabitch, and neither are millions of other Canadians. You can gloss over it all you want. Fuck you, fuck Trump and fuck your “Union”.
I’m assuming you’d die for your country, and I’m equally committed to dying for mine.

i became too canadian and bieng nice in my writing lol almot 20 years but thank you.you made very clear but i doubt they will understand ...

25 March 2025, 23:58

RolandtheHeadless

quote:
Trump never dodged the draft…he got legal deferments.

The rich kids like Trump got notes from their doctors. The poor kids had to serve or go to Canada.

The American public eventually became outraged by the above, and we ended the draft. Then Carter pardoned the poor kids who went to Canada.

26 March 2025, 00:00

medved

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:

More butt hurt and zero facts on why the USA should not leverage its market to benefit Americans the most. Only idiots throw around the term fascist. But we can all agree that Canada is closer to communism than the USA will ever be.

I was too young to go to Vietnam but I had several family members drafted and couple of which never back. One was cousin who was like my older brother. My family watched the news every night in those days to hear updates about the war. Every night it was ingrained in my mind of how Canada harbored draft dodgers. Trump never dodged the draft…he got legal deferments. I had family members who got that as well. If it’s legal…it’s legal. Time the USA quits sending money around the world and fully leverages its market to benefit Americans.

you tell me we are idiot because we disagreed .. you did not even read the link i posted lol

your president avoided to go to war but did not to canada ... your president negociated the deals we had between canada mexico and your country nobody twisted his arms now you are thinking you will get better deal and you are still not seeing them on your plates and they will not ... you do not like us as well then live with that because it will not change ... i do hope our oil will not flow to your country to understand where you were getting it .. and discovering canada is not that bad but it is too late canadians are not anymore your friends and it will be for a while ... enjoy your trump ... facism is when the power is taking away all the counter powers that exists ... ever heard of journalists banned or judges threatened to be removed ... enjoy your trump times

26 March 2025, 00:03

Tumbleweed

quote:
leverage its market to benefit Americans

Translation: Move up from raping women to raping nations, now that he has control of the weapons to do it.

26 March 2025, 00:49

ledvm

I looked at the CNN article but I take nothing from CNN at face value.

I will touch on Banking as I do a fair amount of business with Canadians each year — a few hundred thousand dollars at least.

Try to deposit a Canadian check in the USA. The money never completely clears. You never know if it is actually there or not and sometimes takes 60 days for a US bank to say yes…you can now use that money but it is still not guaranteed. We quit accepting payments by Canadian checks. All Canadians without a US bank account must pay us by wire-transfer or CC.

Trump is leveraging the US market in American’s favor — he should.

26 March 2025, 01:13

crbutler

I don’t expect you to lie down for him or acquiesce to him or the idea that Canada is independent and you want to remain so.

Poland was invaded in 1939… when was Canada invaded again?

When did people start shooting across the border?

Heck, the only cries for violence I hear are a few Canadians on this forum.

It wasn’t a declaration of war. It wasn’t a false flag attack. Trump is an idiotic guy who can’t control his mouth. That was known before the election, and hasn’t changed.

You’re offended, and I get that… but that’s again hurt feelings, not a war.

You have a very valid gripe about Trump and his lack of keeping his word.

Yes, he was the one who signed the second NAFTA agreement. He’s showing he can not be trusted to keep his word.

Again that’s something you were harmed by.

A hubris that thought your nation would consent to being a state in the US is actually harming you how?

You want to talk about responsible behavior and you call that an act of war?

You are as hyperbolic as Trump.

quote:
Originally posted by Tumbleweed:
quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
While I agree that Trump’s trade war efforts harm Canada, the talk (to give it more import than it has) of allowing Canada to join the Union (or annex it) is not something that can go anywhere unless Canada wants it.

That’s more a hurt feelings item. Unnecessary hurt feelings, and inappropriate but not areal threat to Canada.

That’s what they said about Poland in 1939. Trump has made his intentions perfectly clear. I’m not laying down for that treacherous psychopathic sonofabitch, and neither are millions of other Canadians. You can gloss over it all you want. Fuck you, fuck Trump and fuck your “Union”.
I’m assuming you’d die for your country, and I’m equally committed to dying for mine.

26 March 2025, 01:23

medved

quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
I don’t expect you to lie down for him or acquiesce to him or the idea that Canada is independent and you want to remain so.

Poland was invaded in 1939… when was Canada invaded again?

When did people start shooting across the border?

Heck, the only cries for violence I hear are a few Canadians on this forum.

It wasn’t a declaration of war. It wasn’t a false flag attack. Trump is an idiotic guy who can’t control his mouth. That was known before the election, and hasn’t changed.

You’re offended, and I get that… but that’s again hurt feelings, not a war.

You have a very valid gripe about Trump and his lack of keeping his word.

Yes, he was the one who signed the second NAFTA agreement. He’s showing he can not be trusted to keep his word.

Again that’s something you were harmed by.

A hubris that thought your nation would consent to being a state in the US is actually harming you how?

You want to talk about responsible behavior and you call that an act of war?

You are as hyperbolic as Trump.

quote:
Originally posted by Tumbleweed:
quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
While I agree that Trump’s trade war efforts harm Canada, the talk (to give it more import than it has) of allowing Canada to join the Union (or annex it) is not something that can go anywhere unless Canada wants it.

That’s more a hurt feelings item. Unnecessary hurt feelings, and inappropriate but not areal threat to Canada.

That’s what they said about Poland in 1939. Trump has made his intentions perfectly clear. I’m not laying down for that treacherous psychopathic sonofabitch, and neither are millions of other Canadians. You can gloss over it all you want. Fuck you, fuck Trump and fuck your “Union”.
I’m assuming you’d die for your country, and I’m equally committed to dying for mine.

you are right: economic war started by your supreme leader is nothing ... declaration of annexation is nothing and the same can be said for greenland.

the most hilarious is you are starting to explain it is nothing but your country is hit hard as well by tariffs ... but again it is nothing ... you see the difference is we are takking seriously the statement and actions of your president and supreme leader ... on your side when you will wake up it will be too late ...

26 March 2025, 02:11

crbutler

The economic impact of the tariff war is on both sides.

Trump is moving towards protectionism, which is not capitalistic; rather it’s populism. It’s not going to work well. He’s giving up the perception of being on the correct side.

I certainly don’t agree with how Trump is doing things.

Trying to get Russia to the bargaining table by changing your position is foolish. While you might get Russia to the table, it’s not going to resolve the situation in your favor. He should have learned this with the Norks in his previous presidency… but apparently you all are right in that he is not particularly educable.

Not much I can do about it at the moment.

But for Trump to annex Greenland or Canada by force, he needs to get Congress and the people to agree to use force.

Look at how far his reorganization attempt of the military went in congress. It isn’t going to happen.

Folks like Trump are why I never wanted to go into business. The juvenile jockeying for advantage in negotiation annoys me. I get you are upset and mad about his betrayal of a longstanding relationship.

Frankly I haven’t changed my mind that Harris would have been every bit as bad in other ways, but I did really doubt Trump would have shown himself this wrongheaded this quickly.

26 March 2025, 02:16

Nakihunter

My bank stopped issuing cheque books 3 year ago or earlier.

The only cheques that we get are from US local government customers who buy from us and will not pay by Credit Card or Bank transfer.

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
I looked at the CNN article but I take nothing from CNN at face value.

I will touch on Banking as I do a fair amount of business with Canadians each year — a few hundred thousand dollars at least.

Try to deposit a Canadian check in the USA. The money never completely clears. You never know if it is actually there or not and sometimes takes 60 days for a US bank to say yes…you can now use that money but it is still not guaranteed. We quit accepting payments by Canadian checks. All Canadians without a US bank account must pay us by wire-transfer or CC.

Trump is leveraging the US market in American’s favor — he should.

26 March 2025, 03:31

jeffeosso

quote:
Originally posted by Nakihunter:
....

I was going to ask Shanks to call the LEOs and do a wellness check on you, you seem to have been gone awhile, and on that long of a bender, I was getting worried you might have died from alcohol poisoning

29 March 2025, 18:17

ledvm

Nothing but a handful of conservatives left here in the ARPF.

The DOGE thread has pointed that out.

After watching that Brett Baier interview with Musk, Gebbia, and team about DOGE…anyone who is not supportive of that work is not in any way shape or form a conservative and simply obtuse.

29 March 2025, 19:30

MJines

Well, while I realize that some folks here are only able to focus on one issue at a time, let's take stock of where we stand just a few months into this Administration.

On the one hand, we have DOGE, a well intentioned effort that has been executed in the most haphazard and chaotic manner possible. Who can seriously object to eliminating unnecessary spending by a government out of control on spending. But instead of approaching the process rationally like any competent enterprise or company would, by assessing functions, people and processes, the group just starts firing people and slashing expenses . . . only to realize in many cases they fired the wrong people or cut the wrong funds. So, I give them an A for effort and a D for execution. Then we have the border. Again, who can seriously oppose securing the border and deporting people here illegally. So while the objective is laudable . . . the flaw is in the execution. An A for effort and a C for execution.

On the other hand, we have some of the largest tax increases (non-Congressionally imposed by the way) in history in the form of Trump's tariffs. Not just tariffs imposed methodically and responsibly, but tariffs imposed one day, eliminated the next, increased, then eliminated and imposed again, etc. At one point I thought conservatives opposed government waste and taxes . . . now I understand that taxes are actually so long as they are MAGA taxes. Not to mention the impact of the uncertainty the tariffs have created in financial markets, the increased risk of inflation and a rescission. So, an F for effort and an F for execution. Next up, our relationship with Russia and our allies. Like it or not, the world does not work like it did in the 1920's. The economy is global and nations exist as part of the international community. Trump's plan, let's get cozy with our long-standing enemies and at the same time see if we can piss off our long-time allies. Even better, let's make noise like we want to take over some of our allies. Again, hard not to give this one an F for concept and an F for execution. On the domestic front, let's issue a bunch of Executive Orders that push the limits of the Executive Branch on spending and other issues traditionally (and in many cases Constitutionally) entrusted to Congress, then when the orders are rightfully and allowably challenged, try to tear down the judiciary by trashing judges reviewing the challenges and finding fault with the orders. This one should be easy for conservatives, but apparently not so. When you affront the entire Constitutional process and seek to advance an authoritarian-like approach, everyone should be able to give that an F. Lastly we have just basic ineptitude, like using group chats with participants that should not be included, to detail military attack plans . . . then lacking the personal responsibility that conservatives love to preach about . . . you make excuses for the debacle. Again, one would think this is not a hard one, but some struggle with it for whatever reason, hard not to give this one a good solid F too.

I have always thought that you evaluated performance based on overall performance. I guess being a conservative today means you pick one issue, look for a glimmer of goodness in it, then declare everything to be wonderful. If that's the standard, then no, I guess I am not a conservative by the MAGA definition.

29 March 2025, 19:35

nute

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Nothing but a handful of conservatives left here in the ARPF.

The DOGE thread has pointed that out.

After watching that Brett Baier interview with Musk, Gebbia, and team about DOGE…anyone who is not supportive of that work is not in any way shape or form a conservative and simply obtuse.

Getting rid of non productive backsides on government seats can only be good, but Trump/ Musk appear to have gone about it in a cavalier and amateurish way.

Having to rehire people in agencies which you do actually need, and which you didn’t check were actually needed? Now you have many thousand stuck in limbo because it might have been illegal to fire them. How much is all the legal shenanigans costing the tax payer. Why did no one check this. It appears DOGE are so desperate for “hell yeah” headlines that don’t check what they are doing.

29 March 2025, 19:38

LHeym500

Dr. Easter is not a conservative. He is a political expedieist.

29 March 2025, 19:46

LHeym500

Sec Hegseth and company discuss live action act plans in unsecured phones, with one person not confirmed, and another standing in Russia.

That send those plans to a third party. Now, the fake conservatives attack the person those chuckle heads sent the information too.

They all should have resigned or been made to resign.

This Administration is worse than Biden.

Biden Administration gave us an improving example. This President is actively making economic living standards worse.

This President did something President Obama and President Biden refused calls to do. That being trying to void the Constitution as interpreted they disagreed with.

Now, this Administration is grabbing people with legal status and putting them on planes denying due process and the checks and balances found in the Constitution.

It is tyrannical. It is wrong. Those who support it, argue for it are not conservatives.

29 March 2025, 20:03

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by nute:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:
Nothing but a handful of conservatives left here in the ARPF.

The DOGE thread has pointed that out.

After watching that Brett Baier interview with Musk, Gebbia, and team about DOGE…anyone who is not supportive of that work is not in any way shape or form a conservative and simply obtuse.

Getting rid of non productive backsides on government seats can only be good, but Trump/ Musk appear to have gone about it in a cavalier and amateurish way.

Having to rehire people in agencies which you do actually need, and which you didn’t check were actually needed? Now you have many thousand stuck in limbo because it might have been illegal to fire them. How much is all the legal shenanigans costing the tax payer. Why did no one check this. It appears DOGE are so desperate for “hell yeah” headlines that don’t check what they are doing.

Mike should know better but I will give you the benefit of the doubt Nute.

It’s all about the time frame. Elon has about 75 years of BS to undo in his 120 day appointment. After that the administration has 2yrs to be strongly effective. Then finally 4 years and it’s up to the people again. The chainsaw is only tool for the job.

Let us not forget that we are not talking about a slightly off kilter company here. The US government is so far in debt without of control spending that it really has NO hope to recover…NONE. If it were a private enterprise bankruptcy (actually years ago) would be its only option. This approach is the only chance.

I applaud them!

29 March 2025, 20:22

ANTELOPEDUNDEE

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Well, while I realize that some folks here are only able to focus on one issue at a time, let's take stock of where we stand just a few months into this Administration.

On the one hand, we have DOGE, a well intentioned effort that has been executed in the most haphazard and chaotic manner possible. Who can seriously object to eliminating unnecessary spending by a government out of control on spending. But instead of approaching the process rationally like any competent enterprise or company would, by assessing functions, people and processes, the group just starts firing people and slashing expenses . . . only to realize in many cases they fired the wrong people or cut the wrong funds. So, I give them an A for effort and a D for execution. Then we have the border. Again, who can seriously oppose securing the border and deporting people here illegally. So while the objective is laudable . . . the flaw is in the execution. An A for effort and a C for execution.

On the other hand, we have some of the largest tax increases (non-Congressionally imposed by the way) in history in the form of Trump's tariffs. Not just tariffs imposed methodically and responsibly, but tariffs imposed one day, eliminated the next, increased, then eliminated and imposed again, etc. At one point I thought conservatives opposed government waste and taxes . . . now I understand that taxes are actually so long as they are MAGA taxes. Not to mention the impact of the uncertainty the tariffs have created in financial markets, the increased risk of inflation and a rescission. So, an F for effort and an F for execution. Next up, our relationship with Russia and our allies. Like it or not, the world does not work like it did in the 1920's. The economy is global and nations exist as part of the international community. Trump's plan, let's get cozy with our long-standing enemies and at the same time see if we can piss off our long-time allies. Even better, let's make noise like we want to take over some of our allies. Again, hard not to give this one an F for concept and an F for execution. On the domestic front, let's issue a bunch of Executive Orders that push the limits of the Executive Branch on spending and other issues traditionally (and in many cases Constitutionally) entrusted to Congress, then when the orders are rightfully and allowably challenged, try to tear down the judiciary by trashing judges reviewing the challenges and finding fault with the orders. This one should be easy for conservatives, but apparently not so. When you affront the entire Constitutional process and seek to advance an authoritarian-like approach, everyone should be able to give that an F. Lastly we have just basic ineptitude, like using group chats with participants that should not be included, to detail military attack plans . . . then lacking the personal responsibility that conservatives love to preach about . . . you make excuses for the debacle. Again, one would think this is not a hard one, but some struggle with it for whatever reason, hard not to give this one a good solid F too.

I have always thought that you evaluated performance based on overall performance. I guess being a conservative today means you pick one issue, look for a glimmer of goodness in it, then declare everything to be wonderful. If that's the standard, then no, I guess I am not a conservative by the MAGA definition.

AMEN TO ALL OF THAT!!!

29 March 2025, 20:29

Magine Enigam

quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:

Mike should know better but I will give you the benefit of the doubt Nute.

It’s all about the time frame. Elon has about 75 years of BS to undo in his 120 day appointment. After that the administration has 2yrs to be strongly effective. Then finally 4 years and it’s up to the people again. The chainsaw is only tool for the job.

Let us not forget that we are not talking about a slightly off kilter company here. The US government is so far in debt without of control spending that it really has NO hope to recover…NONE. If it were a private enterprise bankruptcy (actually years ago) would be its only option. This approach is the only chance.

I applaud them!

There are several flaws in your thinking in your last post.

First, you are beyond the benefit of doubt.

To summarize, you say 75 years to undo in 120 days. That's ideological desperado shit.

The 75 years and more accomplishments were ALL pursuant to and enabled by the Founding principles. The undoing of the accomplishments is not. The Founders knew about the "chainsaw" and warned us, referring to a demagogue.

And comparing the government to a business, company, private enterprise is part of the flaw.

"When a man unprincipled in private life desperate in his fortune, bold in his temper, possessed of considerable talents, having the advantage of military habits—despotic in his ordinary demeanour—known to have scoffed in private at the principles of liberty—when such a man is seen to mount the hobby horse of popularity—to join in the cry of danger to liberty—to take every opportunity of embarrassing the General Government & bringing it under suspicion—to flatter and fall in with all the non sense of the zealots of the day—It may justly be suspected that his object is to throw things into confusion that he may “ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.”
― Alexander Hamilton

29 March 2025, 21:37

crbutler

quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Well, while I realize that some folks here are only able to focus on one issue at a time, let's take stock of where we stand just a few months into this Administration.

On the one hand, we have DOGE, a well intentioned effort that has been executed in the most haphazard and chaotic manner possible. Who can seriously object to eliminating unnecessary spending by a government out of control on spending. But instead of approaching the process rationally like any competent enterprise or company would, by assessing functions, people and processes, the group just starts firing people and slashing expenses . . . only to realize in many cases they fired the wrong people or cut the wrong funds. So, I give them an A for effort and a D for execution. Then we have the border. Again, who can seriously oppose securing the border and deporting people here illegally. So while the objective is laudable . . . the flaw is in the execution. An A for effort and a C for execution.

On the other hand, we have some of the largest tax increases (non-Congressionally imposed by the way) in history in the form of Trump's tariffs. Not just tariffs imposed methodically and responsibly, but tariffs imposed one day, eliminated the next, increased, then eliminated and imposed again, etc. At one point I thought conservatives opposed government waste and taxes . . . now I understand that taxes are actually so long as they are MAGA taxes. Not to mention the impact of the uncertainty the tariffs have created in financial markets, the increased risk of inflation and a rescission. So, an F for effort and an F for execution. Next up, our relationship with Russia and our allies. Like it or not, the world does not work like it did in the 1920's. The economy is global and nations exist as part of the international community. Trump's plan, let's get cozy with our long-standing enemies and at the same time see if we can piss off our long-time allies. Even better, let's make noise like we want to take over some of our allies. Again, hard not to give this one an F for concept and an F for execution. On the domestic front, let's issue a bunch of Executive Orders that push the limits of the Executive Branch on spending and other issues traditionally (and in many cases Constitutionally) entrusted to Congress, then when the orders are rightfully and allowably challenged, try to tear down the judiciary by trashing judges reviewing the challenges and finding fault with the orders. This one should be easy for conservatives, but apparently not so. When you affront the entire Constitutional process and seek to advance an authoritarian-like approach, everyone should be able to give that an F. Lastly we have just basic ineptitude, like using group chats with participants that should not be included, to detail military attack plans . . . then lacking the personal responsibility that conservatives love to preach about . . . you make excuses for the debacle. Again, one would think this is not a hard one, but some struggle with it for whatever reason, hard not to give this one a good solid F too.

I have always thought that you evaluated performance based on overall performance. I guess being a conservative today means you pick one issue, look for a glimmer of goodness in it, then declare everything to be wonderful. If that's the standard, then no, I guess I am not a conservative by the MAGA definition.

I don't disagree with you in general, although I do think you are being a little harsh in your grading.

DOGE has been haphazardly implemented. But I will give it a better grade in that they are actually calling out things instead of the GOP as usual truckling to the institutional mass of government. If this wakes folks up, great, but really the DOGE method is what the left does to increase things- throw a bunch of unaccounted funds at something and never evaluating the real need for them. A for effort, C for execution.

The tax increases, that you are quite accurate with, although I would give him a C for effort in that he does voice a protectionist agenda as to the rationale. I disagree with the thinking, but admit (since most every other nation uses tariffs for protectionist purposes) that its a rational argument. I do agree with the F for execution.

Russia and our allies- He has at least been willing to state the hard truths for our allies that they are expecting us to bear the cost of their countries. You are saying the economy is global... yes... but because it has been pushed that way. D for effort and yes, F for execution.

Domestically, you seem to be objecting to him and his flurry of executive orders. Intellectually I agree, but strangely it seems that this has been how government has been run since Regan. I don't see how you can object as a lawyer to whom precedent seems to be god-like from Moses down on a stone tablet. This I give a C for effort and a D for execution.

His attacks on the judiciary? I do see that the low level judges are more and more issuing injunctions that didn't happen so often before. I would be more sympathetic to their plight if they made the rulings and didn't put up these immediate injunctions to everything... which they don't tend to do when the other side does it. That being said, in my mind there should be some accountability for judges who consistently get overruled or make glaring errors in judgement. This part D and F.

I don't know what I am called anymore. I think of myself as conservative, but many in the GOP think I am not.

I will grant that President Trump is shaking things up, and using the methodology that the left has used to advance progressivism incrementally as a populist tool at this point. Unfortunately, either he does not have enough competent help to address everything at once or he's not thinking things through before acting, or he's just got some wrong ideas in mind. I think all three are partially correct there.

29 March 2025, 21:58

M.Shy

On the scheme of big things, he is trying to correct this ship of ours the right way meaning right ( not politically)
I may not agree with him on everything but I applaud him for his effort to better US in some ways
On international scene, every country has been taking advantage of us in many ways and him trying to even it out is bad? I don’t think so but that’s my opinion and if I’m right or wrong, only time will tell

29 March 2025, 22:51

MJines

quote:
Originally posted by crbutler:
quote:
Originally posted by MJines:
Well, while I realize that some folks here are only able to focus on one issue at a time, let's take stock of where we stand just a few months into this Administration.

On the one hand, we have DOGE, a well intentioned effort that has been executed in the most haphazard and chaotic manner possible. Who can seriously object to eliminating unnecessary spending by a government out of control on spending. But instead of approaching the process rationally like any competent enterprise or company would, by assessing functions, people and processes, the group just starts firing people and slashing expenses . . . only to realize in many cases they fired the wrong people or cut the wrong funds. So, I give them an A for effort and a D for execution. Then we have the border. Again, who can seriously oppose securing the border and deporting people here illegally. So while the objective is laudable . . . the flaw is in the execution. An A for effort and a C for execution.

On the other hand, we have some of the largest tax increases (non-Congressionally imposed by the way) in history in the form of Trump's tariffs. Not just tariffs imposed methodically and responsibly, but tariffs imposed one day, eliminated the next, increased, then eliminated and imposed again, etc. At one point I thought conservatives opposed government waste and taxes . . . now I understand that taxes are actually so long as they are MAGA taxes. Not to mention the impact of the uncertainty the tariffs have created in financial markets, the increased risk of inflation and a rescission. So, an F for effort and an F for execution. Next up, our relationship with Russia and our allies. Like it or not, the world does not work like it did in the 1920's. The economy is global and nations exist as part of the international community. Trump's plan, let's get cozy with our long-standing enemies and at the same time see if we can piss off our long-time allies. Even better, let's make noise like we want to take over some of our allies. Again, hard not to give this one an F for concept and an F for execution. On the domestic front, let's issue a bunch of Executive Orders that push the limits of the Executive Branch on spending and other issues traditionally (and in many cases Constitutionally) entrusted to Congress, then when the orders are rightfully and allowably challenged, try to tear down the judiciary by trashing judges reviewing the challenges and finding fault with the orders. This one should be easy for conservatives, but apparently not so. When you affront the entire Constitutional process and seek to advance an authoritarian-like approach, everyone should be able to give that an F. Lastly we have just basic ineptitude, like using group chats with participants that should not be included, to detail military attack plans . . . then lacking the personal responsibility that conservatives love to preach about . . . you make excuses for the debacle. Again, one would think this is not a hard one, but some struggle with it for whatever reason, hard not to give this one a good solid F too.

I have always thought that you evaluated performance based on overall performance. I guess being a conservative today means you pick one issue, look for a glimmer of goodness in it, then declare everything to be wonderful. If that's the standard, then no, I guess I am not a conservative by the MAGA definition.

I don't disagree with you in general, although I do think you are being a little harsh in your grading.

DOGE has been haphazardly implemented. But I will give it a better grade in that they are actually calling out things instead of the GOP as usual truckling to the institutional mass of government. If this wakes folks up, great, but really the DOGE method is what the left does to increase things- throw a bunch of unaccounted funds at something and never evaluating the real need for them. A for effort, C for execution.

The tax increases, that you are quite accurate with, although I would give him a C for effort in that he does voice a protectionist agenda as to the rationale. I disagree with the thinking, but admit (since most every other nation uses tariffs for protectionist purposes) that its a rational argument. I do agree with the F for execution.

Russia and our allies- He has at least been willing to state the hard truths for our allies that they are expecting us to bear the cost of their countries. You are saying the economy is global... yes... but because it has been pushed that way. D for effort and yes, F for execution.

Domestically, you seem to be objecting to him and his flurry of executive orders. Intellectually I agree, but strangely it seems that this has been how government has been run since Regan. I don't see how you can object as a lawyer to whom precedent seems to be god-like from Moses down on a stone tablet. This I give a C for effort and a D for execution.

His attacks on the judiciary? I do see that the low level judges are more and more issuing injunctions that didn't happen so often before. I would be more sympathetic to their plight if they made the rulings and didn't put up these immediate injunctions to everything... which they don't tend to do when the other side does it. That being said, in my mind there should be some accountability for judges who consistently get overruled or make glaring errors in judgement. This part D and F.

I don't know what I am called anymore. I think of myself as conservative, but many in the GOP think I am not.

I will grant that President Trump is shaking things up, and using the methodology that the left has used to advance progressivism incrementally as a populist tool at this point. Unfortunately, either he does not have enough competent help to address everything at once or he's not thinking things through before acting, or he's just got some wrong ideas in mind. I think all three are partially correct there.

I have no problem with the concept of an Executive Order. That said, there is an appropriate and an inappropriate way to use them. To use an Executive Order to try and accomplish something that is properly legislative and then just wait to see if someone can overturn it someday all the while the order is being left in place, that I find disturbing but it is done by both sides. What I find beyond the pale and worthy of an F, is to do the latter, issue an order that is clearly testing legislative limits, then when someone has the temerity to challenge your power grab, you trash those doing so and particularly trash the judges that are simply tasked with interrupting the law. If it were one rogue judge, maybe you have a basis to complain, but when any and all judges that slap your hand for a grab are challenged, threatened with impeachment, etc., that is simply authoritarian bullshit. If you think you're right on the EO, appeal the order, that's our process.

29 March 2025, 23:50

Magine Enigam

The root word in conservative is conserve.

What are conservatives conserving? Yea, yea, the Republic.

How can authoritarian means accomplish an end or consequence of conserving the republic?

When does an authoritarian regime and movement know when and where to stop conserving the republic, acknowledging it has been saved?

One way to answer that is with another question. What is the difference between Caesar Crossing the Rubicon and Washington crossing the Delaware?

The short answer is Caesar wanted to change a republic to an empire, where Washington's goal was to change an empire to a republic.

I previously posted this in another thread:

quote:
Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
I presume Lane and those he calls real conservatives love Ayn Rand.

Another analogy, suggested by Jeffee, is when Caesar crossed the Rubicon he had an army, much like Trump has a supposed army and a metaphorical Rubicon.

We know the rest of the story regarding Rome and Caesar.

Here's context:

https://youtu.be/jQRdDFQBF08?si=fPTcJsLCn7_Pcj2T

Trump Crossed the Rubicon

AI Overview
Why Did Caesar Cross the Rubicon? | History Hit
After Caesar crossed the Rubicon, he ignited a civil war that led to the end of the Roman Republic and the rise of the Roman Empire, with Caesar initially becoming dictator for life, and later his adopted son Augustus becoming the first emperor.

More detail:

https://education.nationalgeog...sar-crosses-rubicon/

HISTORIC ARTICLE
Jan 10, 49 BC: Caesar Crosses the Rubicon
On January 10, 49 B.C.E., General Julius Caesar crossed the Rubicon, a stream separating Rome from the province of Gaul. Crossing the Rubicon began a civil war that would end the Roman Republic.

30 March 2025, 06:38

Magine Enigam

Conservative - really?

Let's explore this.

In order to do so we have to go back in history.

Here's a result of a search on the question: why is western governance rooted in Greek philosophy?

https://www.google.com/search?...sclient=gws-wiz-serp

AI Overview
Why Ancient Greek Philosophers Are The Greatest Thinkers To ...
Western governance is deeply rooted in Greek philosophy because ancient Greek thinkers like Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle laid the groundwork for concepts of democracy, civic participation, and the rule of law, which continue to influence modern political thought and systems.
Here's a more detailed explanation:
Democracy and Civic Participation:
Ancient Greek city-states, particularly Athens, experimented with democratic governance, where citizens participated in decision-making and held elected officials accountable. This concept of self-rule and the importance of citizen involvement in government is a cornerstone of many Western political systems.
Philosophical Foundations:
Greek philosophers, such as Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle, explored fundamental questions about justice, ethics, and the nature of good governance. Their ideas on these topics have shaped Western political thought for centuries, influencing concepts like the separation of powers, the importance of reason and logic in decision-making, and the pursuit of the common good.
The Rule of Law:
The Greeks emphasized the importance of laws and legal systems, rather than arbitrary rule by individuals or groups. This concept of the rule of law, where everyone is subject to the same laws, is a fundamental principle of many Western legal systems.
Influence on Roman and Later Societies:
The ideas of the Greeks were adopted and further developed by the Romans, who in turn, influenced the development of governance in Western Europe and beyond.
Examples of Influence:
The U.S. Congress, with its system of elected representatives and senators, draws inspiration from the Roman Senate.
The U.S. Capitol building, a symbol of American democracy, is inspired by ancient Greek and Roman architectural styles.
The Statue of Liberty, a symbol of freedom, is reminiscent of ancient Roman goddesses.
In essence, the legacy of Greek philosophy and its emphasis on reason, justice, and civic participation has shaped the foundations of Western governance, influencing our understanding of democracy, law, and the role of government in society.

===============================================

Note that has practically nothing to do with Christian Nationalism, protectionism, or conservativism as we know it today. Conservativism seems to be an ideology invented/fomented contrary to the ideas behind western civilization.

The Founders knew darn well all about Greek philosophy, and the rule of man, the rule of King, the rule of God, and the rule of law.

Jefferson in particular supported the Social Contract, per John Locke and others, and separation of church and state. The constitution is secular and consistent with Greek philosophy regarding the rule of law.

So why are we having to suffer revisiting, and defending, basic concepts regarding western civilization?

The answer is conservativism as it has morphed.

30 March 2025, 18:21

ledvm

quote:
Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
quote:
Originally posted by ledvm:

Mike should know better but I will give you the benefit of the doubt Nute.

It’s all about the time frame. Elon has about 75 years of BS to undo in his 120 day appointment. After that the administration has 2yrs to be strongly effective. Then finally 4 years and it’s up to the people again. The chainsaw is only tool for the job.

Let us not forget that we are not talking about a slightly off kilter company here. The US government is so far in debt without of control spending that it really has NO hope to recover…NONE. If it were a private enterprise bankruptcy (actually years ago) would be its only option. This approach is the only chance.

I applaud them!

There are several flaws in your thinking in your last post.

First, you are beyond the benefit of doubt.

To summarize, you say 75 years to undo in 120 days. That's ideological desperado shit.

The 75 years and more accomplishments were ALL pursuant to and enabled by the Founding principles. The undoing of the accomplishments is not. The Founders knew about the "chainsaw" and warned us, referring to a demagogue.

And comparing the government to a business, company, private enterprise is part of the flaw.

"When a man unprincipled in private life desperate in his fortune, bold in his temper, possessed of considerable talents, having the advantage of military habits—despotic in his ordinary demeanour—known to have scoffed in private at the principles of liberty—when such a man is seen to mount the hobby horse of popularity—to join in the cry of danger to liberty—to take every opportunity of embarrassing the General Government & bringing it under suspicion—to flatter and fall in with all the non sense of the zealots of the day—It may justly be suspected that his object is to throw things into confusion that he may “ride the storm and direct the whirlwind.”
― Alexander Hamilton