quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

Don’t know any Oath Keepers…do you?

How it got handled here.

https://alaskapublic.org/2024/...judiciary-committee/

Riding them down with sabers would work too...

A patriotic choice for president might have been Mickey Mouse, before Disney went all woke. Today, I don't know who to write in. If it seems likely Kamala would win, I would vote for the Republican locally. If it seems likely Trump would win, I might go with the Democrat. Balance. Bill

Actually the patriotic choice in the US is to vote, regardless of who for.

Trying to claim someone is more patriotic based on who they vote for is the antithesis of American ideals.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

I just have to say that I'm dismayed (for lack of a better word) that this contest between Trump and Harris is even close. It ain't right.

quote:

I don't have the trust in my fellow Americans that I used to have and always assumed a base line of a cluster of virtues was common ground.

I am right there with you.

Me too. I don't trust seditionists.

I don’t know any seditionists…but I damn know from good data to never trust a democrat!

So, you must not be keeping up:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/p...piracy-in-jan-6-case

Oath Keepers founder guilty of seditious conspiracy in Jan. 6 case
Politics Nov 29, 2022 5:45 PM EDT

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/p...piracy-in-jan-6-case

Jury finds 4 Oath Keepers guilty of seditious conspiracy in Jan. 6 case
Politics Jan 23, 2023 2:54 PM EDT

=============================================

The master-mind seditionist is still on the loose, running amuck and for office.

Don’t know any Oath Keepers…do you?

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
I know who the ones are that stood trial and were convicted.

I know Trump feed them the lies that bloomed into action.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

Lane, do you know Trump? Or do we need to ask - do you know OF Trump? Same for seditionists and oath-keepers and other convicts and criminals.

You seem to think that because you don't know them personally, that's an excuse for denials. Certainly, you know OF them.

I think you're just being argumentative and don't want to admit something that's obvious.

===========================================

LHeym, Trump feeding them lies is only part of the picture. They were ripe with lies already, looking for a path for expression/aggression. Same as Lane.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Actually the patriotic choice in the US is to vote, regardless of who for.

Trying to claim someone is more patriotic based on who they vote for is the antithesis of American ideals.

Well said! I agree with you, generally speaking.

But how do you make the case for it being patriotic to support a seditionist who called for suspension of the US Constitution?

That's not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Actually the patriotic choice in the US is to vote, regardless of who for.

Trying to claim someone is more patriotic based on who they vote for is the antithesis of American ideals.

Not when one of the options has publicly called for a suspension of the Constitution and tried to violently reverse an election loss.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Actually the patriotic choice in the US is to vote, regardless of who for.

Trying to claim someone is more patriotic based on who they vote for is the antithesis of American ideals.

First, "patriotic" is subjective. The proud boyz and oath keepers considered themselves patriotic on Jan 6, 2021. Yet many were convicted per the rule of law. Go figure.

Just for fun, I looked up the definition of "ideals". I figured in context it means something to do with morals, virtues, values, principles.

But really:

ideal
1 of 2
adjective
ide·​al ī-ˈdē(-ə)l ˈī-ˌdē(-ə)l
Synonyms of ideal
1
a: of, relating to, or embodying an ideal
ideal beauty
b: conforming exactly to an ideal, law, or standard : perfect
an ideal gas
compare real sense 1c(4)
2
a: existing as a mental image or in fancy or imagination only
broadly : lacking practicality

b: relating to or constituting mental images, ideas, or conceptions

3: of or relating to philosophical idealism

4: existing as an archetypal idea

ideal

2 of 2
noun
1: a standard of perfection, beauty, or excellence
2: one regarded as exemplifying an ideal and often taken as a model for imitation
3: an ultimate object or aim of endeavor : goal
4: a subset of a mathematical ring that is closed under addition and subtraction and contains the products of any given element of the subset with each element of the ring

Adjective

abstract
conceptual
ideational
metaphysical
notional
theoretical
theoretic

====================================


So, my point is let's get real.

One might as well try to define "normal". Then let's say Trump ain't normal, nor does Trumpism represent normal, IMO.

If you "feel" that insurrection and many, many lies would be deemed okay by the Founders, then vote accordingly. It's your patriotic privilege.

All I see with Trump and Vance is 2 men fighting to preserve traditional America from progressive liberalism/socialism.

I support them and the party that supports them.

Do I agree with them 100%? No. But I do disagree with 90+% of the Democratic agenda.

Logic dictates.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
All I see with Trump and Vance is 2 men fighting to preserve traditional America from progressive liberalism/socialism.

I support them and the party that supports them.

Do I agree with them 100%? No. But I do disagree with 90+% of the Democratic agenda.

Logic dictates.

Actually, what logic dictates is that anybody who votes for trump is a traitor to democracy. He is a seditionist who tried to overturn the result of a general election even after he was well aware that he had lost. And, there is zero reason to think that he won't do it again.

You need to go read Jack Smith's most recent filing that was released yesterday. Maybe it will clear the fog from your head.

Lane, I missed your response.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
All I see with Trump and Vance is 2 men fighting to preserve traditional America from progressive liberalism/socialism.

I support them and the party that supports them.

Do I agree with them 100%? No. But I do disagree with 90+% of the Democratic agenda.

Logic dictates.

There's a lot packed in that post. Last comment first: It ain't logic that's doing the dictating in your case, but something else.

However, it is logical, outside looking in, based on evidence, that you would form foment such opinions given your presuppositions, beliefs and rigid ideology.

What is "traditional America" really? What is "progressive liberalism/socialism" really? You have your definitions. I could speculate, but won't waste the time.

What are you in favor of "preserving"? Is "all I see" an acknowledgment? Of what?

You try to make it seem so benevolent, and wholesome, salt of the earth, righteous.

I don't think Trump/Vance are about "preserving" anything but power. They are not "fighting" for something benign as tradition. And you know it.

The rise and movement of Christian Nationalism is not about yesteryear. It's about the future, and dominance, using the secular system of the Founders to morph the system to conflate inseparably religious dogma.

Is Project 2025 benevolent? It's certainly righteous. It's not about preserving tradition, but about creating something new and calling it tradition. It's not about draining the swamp, the deep state, but about creating a new deep state filled with vetted loyalists. It's dystopia.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...6467265c182612&ei=51

Trump and his allies are not planning to concede another electoral loss
Story by Philip Bump • 19h • 5 min read

============================================

Here's a sample of "traditional America":

https://youtu.be/lyQo-wf1tLY?si=OD6AU9otoZFqaLVK

One Choice

========================================

Lane, and others, here's something to invest in. Imagine how much it's worth when he loses. It's for Tradition's sake:

https://youtube.com/shorts/lDy...?si=4HhvEAinvPMfu4jr

Next, they will print 3$ bills for Vance. Weird

We were discussing views on Traditional America and values and such, and the party of Lincoln.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/news...4gL?ocid=socialshare

https://www.msn.com/en-us/musi...=socialshare#details

The Little White Schoolhouse.

I have said this in the past and will say it again. Trumpism is a CULT. Cults are based on believe, total believe in the leader. Logic has no place in a cult. You can have 100% hard evidence of something and if the cult leader says that it not true then the followers will truly believe it is not true, logic and proof be damned! Once that total believe in their leader gets seated in their brains, there is almost no chance of convincing them otherwise. Cult followers will never, ever admit that they are in a cult.

Because of this I make it a point now of trying hard not to get into a discussion with Trump supporters because I know it will not do any good and just make them angrier than they already are.

quote:

Trumpism is a CULT.

I have said this before and will say it again…repeating that statement shows a total lack of understanding of the political divide, politics in general, and the mindset of conservative Americans interested in the preservation of traditional America. Basically it is a pathetic explanation used as an excuse by ignorant people unwilling to put forth the effort to comprehend.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Trumpism is a CULT.

I have said this before and will say it again…repeating that statement shows a total lack of understanding of the political divide, politics in general, and the mindset of conservative Americans interested in the preservation of traditional America. Basically it is a pathetic explanation used as an excuse by ignorant people unwilling to put forth the effort to comprehend.

Tell us, Dr. Easter, what are the highlights of this "traditional America" we've lost, and when did we have it?

Was it black and brown people living in their own enclaves, and ONLY there, and not being found in "white" towns after dark? You know what "sundown" towns are, don't you?

Was it when women were expected to endure sexual harassment and sexual assault without complaint because obviously men know what's best, when submitting to the boss was part of a secretary's duties?

Is that the "traditional America" you pine for?

Cross burnings on Saturday night to get ready for Sunday school in the morning, and being "uppity" could carry a death sentence?

Tell us, oh wise one, what was "traditional America"?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Trumpism is a CULT.

I have said this before and will say it again…repeating that statement shows a total lack of understanding of the political divide, politics in general, and the mindset of conservative Americans interested in the preservation of traditional America. Basically it is a pathetic explanation used as an excuse by ignorant people unwilling to put forth the effort to comprehend.

If you can't defend yourself attack the messenger. Typical Trump response to everything.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Trumpism is a CULT.

I have said this before and will say it again…repeating that statement shows a total lack of understanding of the political divide, politics in general, and the mindset of conservative Americans interested in the preservation of traditional America. Basically it is a pathetic explanation used as an excuse by ignorant people unwilling to put forth the effort to comprehend.

Actually, it is the only thing that makes any sense when you take into account everything trump has done and said. He was right when he said that he could shoot somebody on Main street and lose no support from his supporters. Cult talk. He tried to overturn the result of a general election that he clearly lost but you still support him. Cult. He's already saying now that if he loses next month, it will be because of fraud...and, you'll be here supporting that position if he does lose...cult.

You are a perfect example of that mindless zombie support that he enjoys. In other words....you are a cult member. There is nothing that trump could do or say that would sway your support for him. Cult. You might as well admit it. We all know anyway. Dumbass.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

I'll breath easier at a point when a Democratic candidate draws moderate Republican votes

Harris IS drawing moderate republican votes, from what I've read.

Trump is repelling moderate republican votes, more than Harris attracting them.
Keep in mind that "Not-Hillary" won in 2016 over "Not-Trump".
Liz Cheney dreads Trump more than she dreads Harris, and she's not the only one.
There are AR denizens who dread Harris more than they dread Trump.
As Hunter Thompson predicted, as long as we're willing to vote the lesser of two evils, the evils will get worse.

quote:

Trump is repelling moderate republican votes, more than Harris attracting them.

I will not be surprised at all if trump wins.

Shit ----

I'm "surprised" that he's gotten this far.

The evidence is clear and SHOULD be reflected not in his support but the opposite instead, his utter rejection from politics.

It's something worse than cult-like.

How many of our esteemed MAGAt business experts would hire an applicant with 34 felony convictions, multiple pending indictments, 6 bankruptcies including casinos, who was barred from involvement with any charities in a State because they stole from sick children and barred from doing business in their long-time home State because of fraud?

Who responded to being fired from his last job ny trying to violently take over the company, and whose former co-workers by a huge margin want nothing to do with him?

Lane would, as long as it's trump.

My point being is that if you, personally, feel that one person or the other is better for the country, as a voter, and choose to vote for them because you think that its a better way forward, that is patriotic.

You can well be in error, but your motives were patriotic.

If your motives are that you want the country to fall and become subject to some other country or polity, then its not.

I would tend to think the best of my fellows until proven otherwise.

I do think that a lot of voters don't particularly look things through logically, but their vote for someone else, regardless if it is republican, democrat, green or marijuana first parties cannot be condemned as unpatriotic until you hear them say that it is for some other reason.

As for Trump and the various things he has done, they are not patriotic (calling for suspension of the constitution being a big one) but I'm not saying Trump is being patriotic... I am saying it can be perfectly patriotic to support him.

Patriotism does have a specific definition, after all.

Patriotism is the feeling of love, devotion, and a sense of attachment to a country or state.

It is not about being right or agreeing with the country.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Actually the patriotic choice in the US is to vote, regardless of who for.

Trying to claim someone is more patriotic based on who they vote for is the antithesis of American ideals.

Well said! I agree with you, generally speaking.

But how do you make the case for it being patriotic to support a seditionist who called for suspension of the US Constitution?

That's not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
My point being is that if you, personally, feel that one person or the other is better for the country, as a voter, and choose to vote for them because you think that its a better way forward, that is patriotic.

You can well be in error, but your motives were patriotic.

If your motives are that you want the country to fall and become subject to some other country or polity, then its not.

I would tend to think the best of my fellows until proven otherwise.

I do think that a lot of voters don't particularly look things through logically, but their vote for someone else, regardless if it is republican, democrat, green or marijuana first parties cannot be condemned as unpatriotic until you hear them say that it is for some other reason.

As for Trump and the various things he has done, they are not patriotic (calling for suspension of the constitution being a big one) but I'm not saying Trump is being patriotic... I am saying it can be perfectly patriotic to support him.

Patriotism does have a specific definition, after all.

Patriotism is the feeling of love, devotion, and a sense of attachment to a country or state.

It is not about being right or agreeing with the country.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
Actually the patriotic choice in the US is to vote, regardless of who for.

Trying to claim someone is more patriotic based on who they vote for is the antithesis of American ideals.

Well said! I agree with you, generally speaking.

But how do you make the case for it being patriotic to support a seditionist who called for suspension of the US Constitution?

That's not a rhetorical question. I'd really like to know.

A vote for Trump can only be objectively viewed as "patriotic" if cast by a patriotic moron.

Anybody with an IQ above 80 voting for Trump is either more devoted to their tax cuts than they are democracy or more devoted to their racism than they are democracy, or both.

There is no climbing back from saying the Constitution should be ignored for you, or that you will only be a dictator for a short period, or trying to overturn an election you lost with violence.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
My point being is that if you, personally, feel that one person or the other is better for the country, as a voter, and choose to vote for them because you think that its a better way forward, that is patriotic.

You can well be in error, but your motives were patriotic.

If your motives are that you want the country to fall and become subject to some other country or polity, then its not.

I would tend to think the best of my fellows until proven otherwise.

I do think that a lot of voters don't particularly look things through logically, but their vote for someone else, regardless if it is republican, democrat, green or marijuana first parties cannot be condemned as unpatriotic until you hear them say that it is for some other reason.

As for Trump and the various things he has done, they are not patriotic (calling for suspension of the constitution being a big one) but I'm not saying Trump is being patriotic... I am saying it can be perfectly patriotic to support him.

Patriotism does have a specific definition, after all.

Patriotism is the feeling of love, devotion, and a sense of attachment to a country or state.

It is not about being right or agreeing with the country.

You just explained why the whole premise of the OP, tied to the word and meaning of Patriotic or patriotism, fails.

Patriotism is a "feeling", an emotion and thus excluded from objectivity. We have seen that play out too much.

https://www.thoughtco.com/patr...-nationalism-4178864

The insurrectionists on 1/6/21 ALL considered themselves and their actions patriotic.

It's probably the base reason the Founders went with secular rule of law, rather than religious law.

For certain, it was secular rule of law that got the criminals on 1/6 convicted, despite their belief. Same with Tina Peters.

"Feelings" betrayed them and the nation they love.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Trump is repelling moderate republican votes, more than Harris attracting them.

I will not be surprised at all if trump wins.

Nor will I. Two cardboard cutouts representing their donors' interests, neither cut out for leadership.
The loser will be the one with the most stay-home voters.
Hunter Thompson's validation, and maybe not for the last time.
I am aghast that this has to be taken seriously. It's not even a good prank.

Notice that Trump plays an emotional patriotic and pseudo-religious song at his rallies.

Some of the music he's used has resulted in cease and desist and lawsuits to stop it.

https://youtu.be/ox4IRQVGsBU?si=Y2QQGByL_cuF40U_

I'm Proud To Be An American Lyrics

IMO, there is a song that is more appropriate:

https://youtu.be/d_KxReI-gDo?si=HTSsu311xdJAj93v

The Sounds of Silence ~ Explained

https://youtu.be/NarMn_hadwg?si=mJid97iqgoLvKIbU

Paul Simon's "The Sound of Silence": A Close Listening

Here's the version that I like best:

https://youtu.be/Bk7RVw3I8eg?si=LHgWotqvtT5jcehP

Disturbed "The Sound Of Silence" 03/28/16 | CONAN on TBS

The concept of patriotism has been perverted by Trump and through Trumpism.

The lies are the biggest clue, and they are getting more desperate. The magnitude projected if he gets back in office will show us what alt-reality really means and the damage.

https://wdnyradio.com/2024/10/...sehoods-about-jan-6/

Former Capitol Police officer wants to end the falsehoods about Jan. 6
October 5, 2024

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Trump is repelling moderate republican votes, more than Harris attracting them.

I will not be surprised at all if trump wins.

Nor will I. Two cardboard cutouts representing their donors' interests, neither cut out for leadership.
The loser will be the one with the most stay-home voters.
Hunter Thompson's validation, and maybe not for the last time.
I am aghast that this has to be taken seriously. It's not even a good prank.

Well, I'm gonna disagree with both of you.

My prediction is that Trump is toast.

It's my patriotic feeling of course.

That "feeling" tells me that Trump and Trumpism are just too wrong. All the mechanisms behind him are obviously damaging in so many ways that I have to believe that the majority will reject him and what he stands for by a wide margin.