Trump is not only unfit, but bat shit crazy too, the man should be nowhere near an elected office. Wildfires are a scary fact of life in the West today, holding up firefighting money is just plain nuts.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/tru...ornia-193449866.html

quote:

Wildfires are a scary fact of life in the West today,

Forest fires in the West are for the most part a natural phenomenon. They have always occurred. They are no more “scary” today than yesteryear. The difference is that we now have people colonizing the wilderness areas and they don’t want to accept the risk. And they like to exploit fires politically.

I am not saying we shouldn’t mitigate them the best we can.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Wildfires are a scary fact of life in the West today,

Forest fires in the West are for the most part a natural phenomenon. They have always occurred. They are no more “scary” today than yesteryear. The difference is that we now have people colonizing the wilderness areas and they don’t want to accept the risk. And they like to exploit fires politically.

I am not saying we shouldn’t mitigate them the best we can.

Rubbish. The intensity and frequency of wildfires and the amount of fuel on the ground has increased exponentially. They are most certainly more scary than before. They consume far larger areas than in the past and because of the increased fuel are far more intense.

Have you ever watched a raging crown fire? Positively spooky. You certainly contemplate your mortality.

You completely avoided the issue of post though, the Orange Turd saying he would withhold the Federal firefighting money for political purposes. Trump is a total POS.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Wildfires are a scary fact of life in the West today,

Forest fires in the West are for the most part a natural phenomenon. They have always occurred. They are no more “scary” today than yesteryear. The difference is that we now have people colonizing the wilderness areas and they don’t want to accept the risk. And they like to exploit fires politically.

I am not saying we shouldn’t mitigate them the best we can.

I remember the Yellowstone National Park fire; we were hunting Wyoming that year and could see the orange glow in the sky from 50 miles south of the fire. Frequent small fires are natural, a 50-year accumulation of fuel is not. Maybe we put out too many small ones in the past, because we could.

Trump said we should rake the leaves, didn't mention pine needles that don't rake too well.

There is a Hopi legend about a big fire that ruined the "alive soil", I've forgotten how to find it now.

Telling that when Trump threatens to condition Federal firefighting assistance on a Governor kowtowing to him Lane immediately discovers that wildfires aren't really all that bad anyway.

Have you no self-respect Lane? Is there nothing Trump can do you won't excuse?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Wildfires are a scary fact of life in the West today,

Forest fires in the West are for the most part a natural phenomenon. They have always occurred. They are no more “scary” today than yesteryear. The difference is that we now have people colonizing the wilderness areas and they don’t want to accept the risk. And they like to exploit fires politically.

I am not saying we shouldn’t mitigate them the best we can.

Rubbish. The intensity and frequency of wildfires and the amount of fuel on the ground has increased exponentially. They are most certainly more scary than before. They consume far larger areas than in the past and because of the increased fuel are far more intense.

Have you ever watched a raging crown fire? Positively spooky. You certainly contemplate your mortality.

You completely avoided the issue of post though, the Orange Turd saying he would withhold the Federal firefighting money for political purposes. Trump is a total POS.

The above, and we know have homes and infrastructure in the way.

Dr. Easter has no credibility and has had none for a long time. He is not a serious person as this thread again demonstrates.


All he wants is his stock portfolio taxes and his religious views enforced by the government.

Oh, and dispute his bragging, his stock portfolio would not get taxed anyway.

He also wants a return to 1935 from a legal doctrine standpoint, but not have firearms returned to original intent of the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Thus, allowing anyone unfettered access to weapons.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Wildfires are a scary fact of life in the West today,

Forest fires in the West are for the most part a natural phenomenon. They have always occurred. They are no more “scary” today than yesteryear. The difference is that we now have people colonizing the wilderness areas and they don’t want to accept the risk. And they like to exploit fires politically.

I am not saying we shouldn’t mitigate them the best we can.

Rubbish. The intensity and frequency of wildfires and the amount of fuel on the ground has increased exponentially. They are most certainly more scary than before. They consume far larger areas than in the past and because of the increased fuel are far more intense.

Have you ever watched a raging crown fire? Positively spooky. You certainly contemplate your mortality.

You completely avoided the issue of post though, the Orange Turd saying he would withhold the Federal firefighting money for political purposes. Trump is a total POS.

When I was a kid (1961?) We lived in a logging camp, upriver from Pierce, Idaho. Late that summer, we were surrounded by fires. since that time, there have been some years with fires and some without fires. A fifty year accumulation of fuels which finally gets lit up, is not unusual at all. I've lived in my current location for 35 years. We have had no fire until this year when a lightning strike ignited one a half mile from the house. We got on it right away and were doing pretty well at surrounding it when the Forest Service crew showed up.
The point is, fires happen. They've been happening for all of my 75 years and they happened a lot before that. Judging from the evidence, the last big fire here, on my place, was 100 years ago. It's going to happen again.
As far as withholding funding is concerned, Trump's reasoning is, of course, stupid. What does a big city developer know about water, farming, or fish? Nothing. To him, water is for keeping golf courses green. On the other hand, Newsome should look after his own backyard. Bill

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Wildfires are a scary fact of life in the West today,

Forest fires in the West are for the most part a natural phenomenon. They have always occurred. They are no more “scary” today than yesteryear. The difference is that we now have people colonizing the wilderness areas and they don’t want to accept the risk. And they like to exploit fires politically.

I am not saying we shouldn’t mitigate them the best we can.

What about the intentionally set fires? Around here if you build a home on property that has large trees on it you take the risk that a storm or lightning strike could put a tree onto your house. Should property owners out west clear their property of any combustible debris?

quote:

Originally posted by ANTELOPEDUNDEE:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Wildfires are a scary fact of life in the West today,

Forest fires in the West are for the most part a natural phenomenon. They have always occurred. They are no more “scary” today than yesteryear. The difference is that we now have people colonizing the wilderness areas and they don’t want to accept the risk. And they like to exploit fires politically.

I am not saying we shouldn’t mitigate them the best we can.

What about the intentionally set fires? Around here if you build a home on property that has large trees on it you take the risk that a storm or lightning strike could put a tree onto your house. Should property owners out west clear their property of any combustible debris?

The insurance companies want us to do just that. State Farm sent a photographer around earlier this year, I expect a spot of bother later this year when the bills come (or don't come - they plan to ditch 72,000 policies in California this year). I clear our back yard in March or April of weed growth for a buffer zone of a little over 100 feet. There is generally no rain in summer, and it all goes dry and brown. Tinder.

There have been a few fires in the canyon below us, an 1100 acre wilderness park. It's best that the back yard is clear of fuel. One of the fires burned right up to our back fence, then stopped for lack of fuel. Nighttime fires hold our attention, we've been up well into the morning hours keeping an eye on a burn for hotspots.

I got de-selected for jury duty once, the trial was for arson the week after one of the fires that was started by illegal fireworks.
The judge thought I might be just a little cranky after being up all night watching for hotspots.

I think the feds should withhold firefighting funds from states where they don't make homeowners clear the trees and brush from their property. Insurance companies in Anchorage force homeowners on the hillside to clear brush where fire danger is high.

All those pretty shade trees, if cut down, might save taxpayers a lot of money. If not cut down, the private owners in harm's way sould have to rely on their state or themselves to put out fires. Let them choose between pretty shade trees and fewer taxes.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Wildfires are a scary fact of life in the West today,

Forest fires in the West are for the most part a natural phenomenon. They have always occurred. They are no more “scary” today than yesteryear. The difference is that we now have people colonizing the wilderness areas and they don’t want to accept the risk. And they like to exploit fires politically.

I am not saying we shouldn’t mitigate them the best we can.

You are 180 off Doc.
Government policy regarding forest management has been suicidal since the Spotted Owl of the 1980's. You can drive anywhere and I mean any road anywhere throughout the western states and see tens of thousands of acres of fire fuel overload on any given mountain side. Federal and state land management bear total responsibility for this catastrophe.

As a western'er I can emphatically say never ever, not for any reason ever, ever elect anyone to national office that claims residency east of the Mississippi.

Again, I must agree with Scott King to his first point being the mismanagement of national forests from a burn, tree removal mismanagement.

It happens in the East as well.

We have a national forest. The Feds have proposed a select removal that is much needed too little over too long a period. Folks have been screaming bloody murder over it.

All of the largest fires in Colorado have occurred recently:

https://www.9news.com/article/...c8-991b-6ef2fdddca60

Things are most certainly not the same as they have always been.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Wildfires are a scary fact of life in the West today,

Forest fires in the West are for the most part a natural phenomenon. They have always occurred. They are no more “scary” today than yesteryear. The difference is that we now have people colonizing the wilderness areas and they don’t want to accept the risk. And they like to exploit fires politically.

I am not saying we shouldn’t mitigate them the best we can.

Rubbish. The intensity and frequency of wildfires and the amount of fuel on the ground has increased exponentially. They are most certainly more scary than before. They consume far larger areas than in the past and because of the increased fuel are far more intense.

Have you ever watched a raging crown fire? Positively spooky. You certainly contemplate your mortality.

You completely avoided the issue of post though, the Orange Turd saying he would withhold the Federal firefighting money for political purposes. Trump is a total POS.

When I was a kid (1961?) We lived in a logging camp, upriver from Pierce, Idaho. Late that summer, we were surrounded by fires. since that time, there have been some years with fires and some without fires. A fifty year accumulation of fuels which finally gets lit up, is not unusual at all. I've lived in my current location for 35 years. We have had no fire until this year when a lightning strike ignited one a half mile from the house. We got on it right away and were doing pretty well at surrounding it when the Forest Service crew showed up.
The point is, fires happen. They've been happening for all of my 75 years and they happened a lot before that. Judging from the evidence, the last big fire here, on my place, was 100 years ago. It's going to happen again.
As far as withholding funding is concerned, Trump's reasoning is, of course, stupid. What does a big city developer know about water, farming, or fish? Nothing. To him, water is for keeping golf courses green. On the other hand, Newsome should look after his own backyard. Bill

Exactly^^^correct.

Of course I didn’t even mention Trump in my post and said of course we should mitigate fires the best we can.

But we all know everything is Trump’s fault just like ME said — even school shootings.

What a bunch of nutters this forum has turned into. While I have never talked about TDS, the Honorable Judge G is correct…TDS is raging here.

And while fires are scary…as I said…no more scary today than yesteryear.

You are in denial of the current situation. Decades of poor forest management have led to a situation where today's fires are far more destructive than they were in the past. We have an accumulation of fuel that far exceeds past levels making the current fires much harder to contain.

I mentioned Trump because of his threats to withhold funding to fight these fires.

Everything is not Trump's fault, him threatening to withhold funding for fighting fires certainly is on him though.

Nutters? That would be those of you supporting the Orange Turd.

quote:

Decades of poor forest management

How (cause) did forest management evolve away from what it was in the 50s-60s?

quote:

today's fires are far more destructive than they were in the past. We have an accumulation of fuel that far exceeds past levels

What about those in the 1700s before any forest management?

I am always taken when I am in large forest areas that haven’t seen fire in my life and run across preserved remains of a burn that must have occurred 100s of years prior.

We had a policy of 100% fire suppression for decades, when it began, I cannot say. It took decades for the trees and undergrowth to grow and accumulate the fuel load that we have today.


Historically fires burnt out on their own. If you look at photos of the area that I live in taken in the 1800's you will see maybe 30-40% of the area covered in trees compared to today. It is this fire suppression policy that has led to the increased size and intensity of today's fires. See the link I posted above.

I’ll pipe in just for a spell
People in past screamed at FS they spend too much money and not enough on fighting NF fires
Things is, we have massive amounts of land and fires are natural phenomena
There is no low intensity in the past, there is high and low intensity depending on decades or centuries of climate fluctuations and frequencies of summer lightning storms etc.
You guys just google 1910 fire
that being said, nature rules and we cry wolf just like with global warming/climate change…
I think, when people build inside of fire prone forests, are we obligated to spend massive amounts of money to protect a few?
We already don’t allow in most places any building in flood -lawns anymore so maybe we need to do that in western forests
One thing is, forest fighting became industry depended on Feds cash being bottomles pit

Under funding the FS, as well as lawsuits from environmentalists have also contributed to today's issues.

The Feds created much of the problems associated with today's forest fires, most of it happens on Federal land. Yeah, the Feds should pay for fighting forest fires.

Big Quebec fires every 20 yrs or so here. They last all summer, as they do nothing but let them burn.

As you can see, all 20 of Colorado's largest wildfires have occurred since the year 2000, don't tell me things have not changed.

https://dfpc.colorado.gov/sect...wildfire-information

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Decades of poor forest management

How (cause) did forest management evolve away from what it was in the 50s-60s?

quote:

today's fires are far more destructive than they were in the past. We have an accumulation of fuel that far exceeds past levels

What about those in the 1700s before any forest management?

I am always taken when I am in large forest areas that haven’t seen fire in my life and run across preserved remains of a burn that must have occurred 100s of years prior.

I have read Indians engaged in fire management across the NA continent. I wonder what effect t the settling and removal of timber and brush for farming and cities/villages/forts had?

quote:

Originally posted by M.Shy:
I’ll pipe in just for a spell
People in past screamed at FS they spend too much money and not enough on fighting NF fires
Things is, we have massive amounts of land and fires are natural phenomena
There is no low intensity in the past, there is high and low intensity depending on decades or centuries of climate fluctuations and frequencies of summer lightning storms etc.
You guys just google 1910 fire
that being said, nature rules and we cry wolf just like with global warming/climate change…
I think, when people build inside of fire prone forests, are we obligated to spend massive amounts of money to protect a few?
We already don’t allow in most places any building in flood -lawns anymore so maybe we need to do that in western forests
One thing is, forest fighting became industry depended on Feds cash being bottomles pit

Another good post.

Some interesting historical pictures of the area that I live in. You can see the same areas today with Onx or Google earth. Today we have way, way more trees on the mountain.

https://westernmininghistory.c...84/historical/towns/

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
As you can see, all 20 of Colorado's largest wildfires have occurred since the year 2000, don't tell me things have not changed.

https://dfpc.colorado.gov/sect...wildfire-information

What about the 1600s or the 1700s? What were fires like then? Recorded history of the western USA is a relatively short period of time to be basing speculation on when the greatest fires occurred.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Some interesting historical pictures of the area that I live in. You can see the same areas today with Onx or Google earth. Today we have way, way more trees on the mountain.

https://westernmininghistory.c...84/historical/towns/

When I was young…I knew people alive in 1883. Very short time frame when speaking about habitats like the Rocky Mountains.

But I am all for going back to BLM philosophy of the 50s-60s.

Hard saying exactly but lighting and native Americans both caused occasional fires which reduced the fuel load. The fuel really began to build when we instituted a policy of 100% suppression.

I'm not sure much data exists from the 1600-1700's, at that point I believe pretty much the only westerners to have seen the Rockies were the Spanish.

The point is, 20 out of 20 of the largest forest fires that we have on record in Colorado have happened since 2000. Things have most certainly changed.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Some interesting historical pictures of the area that I live in. You can see the same areas today with Onx or Google earth. Today we have way, way more trees on the mountain.

https://westernmininghistory.c...84/historical/towns/

When I was young…I knew people alive in 1883. Very short time frame when speaking about habitats like the Rocky Mountains.

But I am all for going back to BLM philosophy of the 50s-60s.

The mistakes were being implemented in full force in the 50's and 60's.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Some interesting historical pictures of the area that I live in. You can see the same areas today with Onx or Google earth. Today we have way, way more trees on the mountain.

https://westernmininghistory.c...84/historical/towns/

When I was young…I knew people alive in 1883. Very short time frame when speaking about habitats like the Rocky Mountains.

But I am all for going back to BLM philosophy of the 50s-60s.

The mistakes were being implemented in full force in the 50's and 60's.

What period of time do consider well managed and what were the practices differences?

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Some interesting historical pictures of the area that I live in. You can see the same areas today with Onx or Google earth. Today we have way, way more trees on the mountain.

https://westernmininghistory.c...84/historical/towns/

I think that’s the way it is all over Colorado.
Early photos of the Wheatley Creek Ranch which a friend owns, show probably 20% of the tree cover.
I’ve been told that the Army Corps of Engineers had a big tree planting program which seeded most of the trees.
So, you see, in this case the centuries before settlement didn’t have terrible wildfires because there wasn’t the fuel source for big fires.
As to your posts Steve, only four of the top ten fires in Colorado history were naturally caused - by lightning.
So we have too many people and homes in the forested areas, too many trees which were largely introduced, too little deadfall mitigation and too many idiots starting fires.

Add to that historically hotter and dryer weather and voila’ more and bigger fires.

As to the issue in the OP, one could see Trump’s point that Newsome could access more water from the Sacramento-San Joaquin Delta if the smelt and other fish were delisted.
Since the smelt were listed as endangered in 2009 and the pumping volume from the delta was modified to mitigate their dwindling population, the smelt numbers have still plummeted - so, well, that didn’t work….
The only result was more pressure on agriculture and higher prices for consumers.
They had the same pissing match back during the Trump Presidency so this is not new at all.

Nice job of obscuring the original issue, Trump threatening to with-hold Federal disaster funds from a Governor who doesn't demonstrate sufficient personal fealty to him.

Trump’s behavior is irresponsible and wrong… and we all know that if he was in office it would not happen.

It’s folks like Newsome and their attitudes that have caused the problem.

Western Europe has been suffering the same slings and stones as we have with regards to weather. They are not having huge fires.

Why?

Because they utilize their forest lands as a renewable and intensively managed resource.

There are issues with both sides in forest and natural resource management.

One side has been placing things into non utilized status by the stroke of a pen in the executive.

The use of the endangered species act as a one size fits all hammer is a large part of what is wrong with the left’s method.

The lack of insisting on a realistic surety for remediation for mining or drilling on public land is a GOP issue.

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Telling that when Trump threatens to condition Federal firefighting assistance on a Governor kowtowing to him Lane

The Federal Govt. does this kind if shit all the time...Don't do what we want, we withhold Federal funds.

quote:

Originally posted by Gundog 64:

quote:

Originally posted by Jefffive:
Telling that when Trump threatens to condition Federal firefighting assistance on a Governor kowtowing to him Lane

The Federal Govt. does this kind if shit all the time...Don't do what we want, we withhold Federal funds.

For fire fighting??

quote:

and we all know that if he was in office it would not happen.

No, we don't know that at all. I wouldn't put anything past his rotten ass.

I judge a person on what they say and do.
I cannot support Trump in either nor the GOP in the image of Christian Nationalism.

Is this happening in states that have banned Controlled Burning and or Clear Cutting?

Most of the large fires in the west occur on Federal Land, the state has no say in how it is managed.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Most of the large fires in the west occur on Federal Land, the state has no say in how it is managed.

Look up the Florida Fires of 1998.

quote:

Originally posted by madbaum:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:
Most of the large fires in the west occur on Federal Land, the state has no say in how it is managed.

Look up the Florida Fires of 1998.

When did Florida become western? I lived there for a while and distinctly recall it being on the eastern seaboard.

We have vast tracts out Federal land out west, very different from the east cost.