https://www.foxnews.com/media/...ence-among-juveniles

I'm not on board with laying all the blame with the school or other institutions, these are all supposed to be parent involved/ led/ participating.

And so here at my place the administration tells me that by and large the parents aren't in the school. As I said other where, parents sometimes use the school for 8 hour per day childcare.

I think the sheriff is right, the prevention of these crimes starts in schools for one example. But the parents and the schools need to be accountable. If the school doesn't allow the parents to use the school as daycare, if the school encourages the parents to involve and participate more I'd at least hope we see less of these travesties.

By the time the DA is involved it's too late, it doesn't matter.

We thinl the sheriff is wrong in this?

I believe the Juvenile Justice system is too soft on juvenile offenders.

We cannot do more then what the statutes and case law allow.

Most juveniles engage in activities that would be felonies cannot be charged with a felony.

Hence, the discussion in FL and here should be on changing those laws I provided you in the other thread.

The Supreme Court precedent is not going to change. I’m the alternative, the Fed Courts not the FL legislature (if not the state courts) are going to allow laws that let all minors for all felonies be charged with “crimes” and adjudicated through an adult process.

In conclusion, the focus to help this is to focus on juvenile Justice reform that make minors more criminally accountable.

Minors know that in the rarest occasions and only the oldest are not going to receive any meaningful punishment through juvenile court.

quote:

I think the sheriff is right, the prevention of these crimes starts in schools for one example. But the parents and the schools need to be accountable. If the school doesn't allow the parents to use the school as daycare, if the school encourages the parents to involve and participate more I'd at least hope we see less of these travesties.

By the time the DA is involved it's too late, it doesn't matter.

I agree with you Scott. When the schools quit coddling these unparented children, more in the way of forcing these parents to have to deal with these problems and get them out of the classroom they will be making a start.

Paying school taxes and having to pay daycare will wake some of these parents up.

And it drastically reduce classroom disruptions and allow the good kids a better opportunity to learn.

This would be a simple start to holding parents accountable....

IMO

The start of the downfall of the schools was when the courts decided that the law meant that every kid under 18 must be allowed to attend school, and the decision that kids do best in a classroom with all the kids in it.

“Mainstreaming” I believe the popular term is.

When we stopped allowing the schools to expel students and insisted that children with no reasonable expectation to succeed in that environment needed to be there, to the detriment of the class as a whole, public education lost the plot.

So far, private education is able to resist this, but it’s expensive and alternatives are limited.

Then add the social engineering that is being forced in the schools in the name of “equity”.

Lots of changes done in the name of change that were not thought through.

The schools used to catch these types and threw them out, making them easily accessible to law enforcement and the court system.

Admittedly it did little to help the problem child himself, but it did protect the rest… and more than a few kids who went through the juvenile alternate education system did straighten out and became useful citizens.

The change for change sake SJW’s have blood on their hands, even if they would never admit it… it’s the “too easy access to weapons”…

I would rather try moving the kids to a trade school before expulsion.

quote:

Originally posted by theback40:
I would rather try moving the kids to a trade school before expulsion.

Exactly.

Anywhere from 6th grade on…if kids can’t deal with traditional or are being a disruption…sending them to a trade school would be a good option.

I strongly support an attached trade school trace in High School.

To make it work, employers would have to remove age restrictions to employment and provide apprenticeships during senior yet of summer after junior year.

For example, we have a railroad depo in one of our towns.

If you could graduate high schoolers with welding, diesel mechanics, allow them to obtain whatever cards needed, etc use internship for hands on training (glorified job interview) in theory some of those kids could go work for the railroad. However, the line will not hire anyone under 21 regardless of paper qualification.

The trades plumbers, fabricators, HVAC, and Construction can be very labor regulatory.That would have to change.

Take surface mining, to obtain a surface mining card you have to have 3 years experience after you turn 18. You can work on sites before you turn 18.

Another example is my late brother. He died post high school while going out of strays to a diesel mechanics school. No reason he should not have got that training and certification in high school through our public education system it was a 2 year program. He could have done it JR and Senior year. We have a few employers locally that would have allowed wonderful apprenticeships between JR and Senior year.

One thing we do well here are CNA programs high schools. Those students spend half the day at a medical employer working. They graduate with CNA card.

EMT would be another great one because that certification is provided through our Community College system already making it easier and cheaper to integrate.

To bring a trade school- high school tract would cost money as most trade schools that provide these certifications;
CDLs,
Mine Cards,
Nursing (Associates,
Diesel Mechanics,
Fabrication,
Welding,
And MD/ DMD tech/assistant are for profit detached from public education.

I strongly support it.

A good example of this discussion more broadly here in KY of how we are falling students both those trying to succeed and those trying to fail is teachers are under enormous pressure to pass students promoting them to the next grade regardless of credit earned in the class.

Then they get to college (somewhere because of Student loans) and either fail out or are passed their like secondary education.

I disagree with Crbutler on the school law enforcement. It is the kids not in school who disappear from the system school provides that are the hardest to monitor lack interaction with law enforcement.

For example, 15 year old runs away from home to Louisville and drops out of the monitoring school provides. Or the child is removed from public school to home school because kid is bringing too much attention and trouble to the home. Those kids are no longer monitored.

Most kids that make contact with the juvenile Justice program do so through School. Those kids would not be known until behavior escalates otherwise.

We administer a successful juvenile drug court. Successful in that kids are able to establish drug free lifestyles, education, college entrance exam prep (if they wish), mental health services, as long as the program exists after care. This program is funded by a handful of donors with coordination through the public schools. We have 6 different school systems. These kids are identified through school interactions.

Also, the felonious, child abusing parents are more readily identified as well when that fact pattern is present. This is because the Court and schools are inside those families

For every bad case there are 100 that go through as intended. The near adults and sever younger minors need addressing.

My thought with school/law enforcement knowledge was that in the old days, if a kid was out of school, the LE agencies knew of it, and knew if the kid was not gainfully employed, he probably wasn't doing anything good.

Its improper now, but they got rode hard by LE until they either were caught doing something that sent them away, or they cleaned up their act.

I think having a trade track is a good idea, but... if the kid persists in bad behavior, what then?

Trade school is not something you can place a misbehaving 12 year old in... Generally, trade work involves some degree of exposure to hazards... someone who is unwilling to pay attention is somewhat more likely to be a problem to himself or others then.

My commentary is not about the kids who are bored or just don't want to be there- but the kids who are disruptive or predatory on their peers.

I don't have an issue with offering an alternate track, and certainly don't think one and out, but they do need to be able to expel and not take back recurrent problems.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
My thought with school/law enforcement knowledge was that in the old days, if a kid was out of school, the LE agencies knew of it, and knew if the kid was not gainfully employed, he probably wasn't doing anything good.

Its improper now, but they got rode hard by LE until they either were caught doing something that sent them away, or they cleaned up their act.

I think having a trade track is a good idea, but... if the kid persists in bad behavior, what then?

Trade school is not something you can place a misbehaving 12 year old in... Generally, trade work involves some degree of exposure to hazards... someone who is unwilling to pay attention is somewhat more likely to be a problem to himself or others then.

My commentary is not about the kids who are bored or just don't want to be there- but the kids who are disruptive or predatory on their peers.

I don't have an issue with offering an alternate track, and certainly don't think one and out, but they do need to be able to expel and not take back recurrent problems.

Wow. Just wow!

So kids that are terrorists are a reason for needing vocational education.....

That mindset is disgusting!

But it is a college educated mindset......More higher education indoctrination.

Who built your courthouse, your hospital and your vet clinic or the schools and colleges you attended....I know you are very educated but you couldn't do it.

.

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
My thought with school/law enforcement knowledge was that in the old days, if a kid was out of school, the LE agencies knew of it, and knew if the kid was not gainfully employed, he probably wasn't doing anything good.

Its improper now, but they got rode hard by LE until they either were caught doing something that sent them away, or they cleaned up their act.

I think having a trade track is a good idea, but... if the kid persists in bad behavior, what then?

Trade school is not something you can place a misbehaving 12 year old in... Generally, trade work involves some degree of exposure to hazards... someone who is unwilling to pay attention is somewhat more likely to be a problem to himself or others then.

My commentary is not about the kids who are bored or just don't want to be there- but the kids who are disruptive or predatory on their peers.

I don't have an issue with offering an alternate track, and certainly don't think one and out, but they do need to be able to expel and not take back recurrent problems.

Wow. Just wow!

So kids that are terrorists are a reason for needing vocational education.....

That mindset is disgusting!

But it is a college educated mindset......More higher education indoctrination.

Who built your courthouse, your hospital and your vet clinic or the schools and colleges you attended....I know you are very educated but you couldn't do it.

.

J, that not the way I read it from him.

If you are properly supervised you can run dangerous equipment at an age less than what the law currently allows.
Any kid that grew up on a ranch or farm is driving a truck, tractors, running a chain saw and welding in their early teens.
Stretching wire, clearing fence.
Hell not much is more dangerous than a spooked horse.
I suppose life outside the city there is a double standard.
You grow up faster but also in a environment where your parents personally invest in you and guide you.
You learn how to address problems and fix things on your own.
You fix a problem and it provides pride and confidence.
So many kids lack confidence these days. Always rely on others.
May sound like broken record but so much goes back around to parenting.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:
My thought with school/law enforcement knowledge was that in the old days, if a kid was out of school, the LE agencies knew of it, and knew if the kid was not gainfully employed, he probably wasn't doing anything good.

Its improper now, but they got rode hard by LE until they either were caught doing something that sent them away, or they cleaned up their act.

I think having a trade track is a good idea, but... if the kid persists in bad behavior, what then?

Trade school is not something you can place a misbehaving 12 year old in... Generally, trade work involves some degree of exposure to hazards... someone who is unwilling to pay attention is somewhat more likely to be a problem to himself or others then.

My commentary is not about the kids who are bored or just don't want to be there- but the kids who are disruptive or predatory on their peers.

I don't have an issue with offering an alternate track, and certainly don't think one and out, but they do need to be able to expel and not take back recurrent problems.

I agree with everything you articulate. I add that more cases near adults with low felonies need to be transferable to adult court with adult penalties. That is currently not the case nor national trend.

quote:

I agree with everything you articulate. I add that more cases near adults with low felonies need to be transferable to adult court with adult penalties. That is currently not the case nor nationa

The US has one of the world's highest incarceration rates, does it not? Has it done any good? When I was young the young adult a-holes were given a choice, prison or the military.

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:

quote:

I agree with everything you articulate. I add that more cases near adults with low felonies need to be transferable to adult court with adult penalties. That is currently not the case nor nationa

The US has one of the world's highest incarceration rates, does it not? Has it done any good? When I was young the young adult a-holes were given a choice, prison or the military.

I believe the sheriff was agreeing with you and suggesting youth need directing before crime, the justice system, incarceration.

The education system and it's supporters and participants need to re evaluate, "dropping the kids off,".

A 15 year old kid at Lamar High School in Houston, used to be a good school, punched out a teacher for taking his phone away from him. Unfortunately, for the student, it was all on video. He's almost certainly going to be expelled and will likely not ever be able to graduate from a normal school. He pretty much ruined his life. Not sure it should totally ruin this young man's life.

I punched out a teacher when I was in school, but he hit me first, there were witnesses and no video. I had no consequences. Teacher had a bad reputation.

The problem is when a student lunches a teacher, teacher falls and head hits a concrete floor. That happened here.

How to handle it, we punish what happened and not what might happen.

I need more info. In KY kids who are “expelled” are moved onto virtual or other resource providing path by the School District. No one is just sent home unable to access schooling anymore.

This is because in KY, children have a State Constitutional Right to an education.

The juvenile justice centers even have schools attached to them because an education must be provided.

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by wymple:

quote:

I agree with everything you articulate. I add that more cases near adults with low felonies need to be transferable to adult court with adult penalties. That is currently not the case nor nationa

The US has one of the world's highest incarceration rates, does it not? Has it done any good? When I was young the young adult a-holes were given a choice, prison or the military.

I believe the sheriff was agreeing with you and suggesting youth need directing before crime, the justice system, incarceration.

The education system and it's supporters and participants need to re evaluate, "dropping the kids off,".

The fact that juveniles know they cannot receive any meaningful sanction (correction) by the juvenile Justice system contributes to these escalating bad behaviors.

Foster kids who are there because of their behavior do not care to steel your car being a Class D felony, which is not transferable to adult court. While in juvenile court the most severe sanction is 90 days or 18th birthday which ever comes first.

There is little course correction being down by states of juveniles with high misdemeanors and low felonies. The kids know it and a percentage just run right through until they turn 18 or receive a high, A or B, felony charge.

C and D felonies not transferable on their own snd no minor less than 14 years of age regardless of what level of crime the behavior would be can be transferred to adult court.

This is why the Virginia teacher shooter was not prosecuted, nor was he technically ever arrested.

Yet another example of bad law that needs to be changed!

quote:

Originally posted by JTEX:
Yet another example of bad law that needs to be changed!

But not what the sheriff is saying and this conversation is an easy example of why we continue to miss the boat.

Baron Heym doesn't get it, he doesn't have a kid and his everything seems to be wrapped around courts and law and officers and punishment.

I believe any law or justice system intervention, especially with kids is to late. There's a whole brussel of folks that should be involved , influencing and intervening before someone with with a badge comes along and they gotta be mainly parents, educators, health professionals, big brothers and uncles. Firemen!

Since tradesmen have been mentioned, sure, why not have a continuous presence in school, even if is no more than a students dad, trade can participate and influence in curriculum, policy, decorum.