The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading The Political Forum What options did tribal nations have after colonialism?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Its also worth noting that much of current immigration is not about a need for skills. Its about wage economics. In general you get a skilled enough person who will do the job cheaper, While our in country trained citizens tend to head overseas on their credentials for higher paid equivalent jobs. Health is a prime example and its foolish. Its only in the non skilled areas where citizens dont really wish to do the work, that there is a true shortage. However currently many of those visas dont offer a pathway to citizenship. They do 2 years and must leave again. | |||
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If you ask Maori, Naki is a colonial. He used the crowns laws to immigrate and actually lives on land forcibly taken in one of the most vicious episodes of the time. https://nzhistory.govt.nz/occu...ttlement-at-parihaka | |||
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Cape town for me......or most especially Europe to the new world! Just WOW!!!!! But in another vane, if I where a young man in one of those corrupt shithole Latin American countries, I would be doing anything I could to get out!!! I have all the empathy in the world for them....but we just can't take everyone. We have national interest and we have too many deserving citizens that need our care FIRST! | |||
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Naki is and always has been a hypocrite! . | |||
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While I understand their thinking they too were once colonizers. It's always been the way of humans. Nomads. Always striking out for more territory. I know this has been pointed out before here too. That's why I don't put too much into the 'indigenous' claims or whatnot. All came from somewhere else. The solution? We need more M class planets to colonize.  We still won't get along if there were ten more of them nearby. ~Ann   | |||
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Yeah its kind of my point. People in glass houses. Focussing on the past hinders your future. Should the govt now confiscate Nakis house to give back? It might fix an old injustice but will create a new one. I grew up in an area where the Maori tribe still carries a huge grudge against non maori NZers. Until I learned to fight I faced a beating every week from those kids at school. My brother was nearly shot when he told some of those locals to get off our farm. Should we hold a grudge for those actions? Its a strange old world. Those guys who would beat me at school, came and helped us when we had problems with maori from another tribe. Why? because the bones of their ancestors still litter the sand dunes nearby where this other tribe massacred them 180 years ago. | |||
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As long as racist bigotry thrives as per previous 3 posts, you are always going to have conflict. Some years ago, I invited one of them (An American) as my personal guest to India. I offered to host this person with my family, visit national parks and hopefully see a tiger etc. and I did not even get a response. That is the kind of values these bigots have. No common decency or manners. I have been an adult kiwi for longer than most Kiwis in NZ including the ignorant one who trolls here. No Maori can call me a colonial because I have been here and continue to stay here as part of their "tino rangatiratanga". Maori in NZ recognise me as a citizen and not a guest or an invader. I am welcomed. I am valued as a significant contributor to Maori interests. Members of the local Marai will vouch for that. When I had a 10-year business visa to live and work in the US, I was invited because they needed my skills. JTITS, Ann and their bigoted kind do not have the skills or work ethic to contribute to the future of the US. They are parasites like their forefathers and the GOP.   "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Doc Butler You are an intelligent man, and it saddens me to see you post such rubbish. Please read a bit on History and technological advancements in the middle-ages and earlier. You claim that the West are more advanced in Physics without realising that India was MOST advanced in mathematics and its sophisticated derivatives including astronomy, metallurgy and alchemy. Please also read about how the British corrupted and distorted to Caste system and its socioeconomic structure. Read about how the British destroyed the textile industry in India so that they could dump their cheap English fabric in the Indian market. Please read about how the British ordered the weaving caste to stop their trade by burning all their looms and breaking the thumbs of the weavers so that they could not ply their trade. That would just be 0.0001% of colonial history in India. You just cannot make up shit to support your agenda!  "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Islam had the Scientific Method before Christian Europe. https://repository.library.geo...town_0076D_14407.pdf | |||
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Typical obfuscation. And avoidance. You didnt come here under Tino Rangatiratanga, Thats Maori self governance. You came under a crown visa and Pakeha govt citizenship. You took advantage of the confiscation of Maori land to purchase a property, and hold it under Crown title. You owe your entire position to being a colonist and accepting the benefits of colonisation. And its not ancient history. If you have actually been a citizen longer than I have been alive, as you claim, then you moved here a scant 70-80 years after the fact. Quite probably some of the participants were still alive and you walked past them in the street. You also moved here under the time frame of maori subjugation. Doesn't matter if you contribute to maori interests, Or get on well with Maori. So do I, and I gaurantee My family has contributed much more. Its not about contributing. Its about what advantage you took in being here. That was gained from the things maori lost. And you do not suffer from the institutional trauma associated with that. | |||
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Did India have firearms and cannon being produced locally? Did they have military logistics as a field of study? For all their astronomical knowledge, did they have celestial navigation? What’s more, with India’s caste system, who knew what? India today makes many varied products because they were forced to share knowledge with their fellows. Yes, India had areas where they were advanced compared to the west, which the west gladly took and advanced on. You are missing the point. India was behind in several critical areas, particularly applied sciences such as engineering. You are trying to make it sound like the British were like the current Taliban taking over the US. It isn’t so. There certainly were areas that the Indians were well advanced compared to the west. But they had critical areas of deficiency that cause a numerically inferior distant opponent to absolutely dominate them. Once conquered, the colonial power did everything they could to keep the balance of power where it was. I’m not claiming that the British behaved well in India, although one could argue their presence and western society allowed the caste system to be broken, which is, all your arguments about it being benign being nonsense, overall a good thing. Ask any untouchable. But the attempts to ensure their power remained supreme were vile. The British government was continually worried about a native uprising. They knew that their control was tenuous. The point being is that India had (and still has) substantial societal issues that caused them to be less efficient than others. They are progressing, and as knowledge and education becomes more commonly shared they will continue to progress. You seem to be saying India was superior to the west. It wasn’t. The proof was in the pudding. The morality of the colonial behavior is a different matter. They did vile things for petty reasons… but if India had been able to conscript an army, arm then with muskets and pikes and swords, and held with military discipline, then the Brits, Portuguese, and Dutch would never have controlled India. There is plenty of history of India and diplomacy and empire… they could have demonstrated everything the British Raj did as a history lesson. So why did it work? It certainly isn’t that India and its people are too meek and nice to take anything… see history again. They stopped the Persians and others…
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Columbus set sail for India in the hope of profiting from the silk and spice trade. That's it. Nothing more. Converting the natives to Christianity, building schools, western healthcare, blah blah blah that was all a very distant second. | |||
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And he murdered a lot of people. We've advanced a bit since then. | |||
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Doc You are cherry picking and not really speaking from educated understanding of history. Please stop being a keyboard scholar and do some serious research. You are really embarrassing yourself. Yes India had firearms and canons 100 years before the West came there and 200 years before the British. They were making their own firearms. Indians also made the finest steel that the West called Damascus steel. That was the best technology and it spread all over the East into Japan. Indians also had the secret of mining, extracting and using zinc for over a thousand years before the Chinese stole the technology and then the West got it much later. The secret was that zinc has a very limited temperature range in its melted state before becoming vapour and the Indians discovered this and developed the technology to harness it. Check on Arthasasthra as a treatise on statesmanship and more. It was written more than 1500 years before Machiavelli. Check on Indian Universities before the Western influence. Also read up on the spread of Jainism and Buddhism 2500 years ago. Please stop claiming any expertise on the Caste system. Go and read some credible books on it and educate yourself. The system was far mor complex and sophisticated than the serfdom and feudalism of Europe. It was far more functional. The British corrupted and made the system dysfunctional. Did you know that the British coined the term "Hindu" for the people of India. The locals did not call themselves that and there were many locals forms and variations of the complex religion and social system. You are missing the point Doc. You are side tracking the thread to put down Indian history and culture. You are also compressing history into a few keyboard minutes. The Portuguese came around the Cape of Good Hope to India around 1498. There was trade with ancient Rome going back 3000 years . This was over land and by sea from the Arabian gulf. Roman graveyards of their trading community and their coins have been found in India that are from 1 millennium BC . Along with spices the Romans got their pearls, diamonds and peacocks from India over 3000 years ago. The British came around 1640 as already pointed out. This was 150 years BEFORE the industrial Revolution and the advancement of engineering technology in the West. The West were way behind and far less literate before that time. The British were far worse than the Taliban. They spread innumerable diseases all over the world. They contributed to mass genocide and destruction of entire people groups. How many indigenous tribes were made extinct around the world by Western colonialism? They did this to other Europeans as well. Ask the South African Boers. Also ask what became of all the wealth plundered from around the world by the colonials. Doc, just go and find some current scholarly papers out of Oxford and Cambridge. You will find plenty of WESTERN scholars who admit that Indian civilization was far superior before colonialism. Please get off your keyboard and do some serious HONEST research. BTW - someone posted about Colombus! How is that relevant? He never reached India. It was Vasco da Gama who came to India in 1498. Alexander reached India almost 1800 years earlier. Archaeological evidence shows trade with Rome from 1000 BC and earlier. Also please get back to the original topic.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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You know very well how it was relevant, Columbus was searching for India and his intentions were to acquire treasure. As I've said the Colonizers had interest in gain for themselves and their nation only. | |||
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Advanced?!?!?! Really? Our recent performance in Iraq, Afghanistan and Somalia seem to indicate to me regression not advancement. Maybe retardation is a better word? | |||
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What you are is an ignorant racist....without the " crowns" money you would have starved.....you are a sponge off of productive soviety. We know you for what you are... . | |||
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Was.....just like the islamists.....then you fell off the cliff and had to flee your brown utopia for western European society where even an idiot like you had a chance to survive..... . | |||
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 The wacky paki tells someone as intelligent and logical as Doc Butler HE is missing the point. I think old underachieving naki is looking for some reparation money.... | |||
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India got powder and cannon from China, they didnt invent it themselves. Damascus didnt do them any good against Tamerlane did it? India just liked getting it's ass kicked. | |||
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For all his flaws as alleged by you, I haven't seen him stoop to personal insults. | |||
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Would you like fries with that order? Thank you come again!  | |||
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You should probably look a little closer. Hes spent the entire thread and previous one calling people Bigots, illiterate, Racists, Embarrassing themselves, Spineless. Its why he gets the reaction he does. You reap what you sow. | |||
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The bottom line with colonial Africa is that there were mistakes on both sides. That said…had the black Africans just hung with the post colonial Europeans(especially in Rhodesia) they would have been integrated and way way way better off today and the world better off as well. The Chinese are the new colonists and in the end will be way more ruthless than the Europeans. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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When the Chinese are done with sub Saharan Africa, those poor natives will be begging for western colonists to save them! . | |||
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I agree with the above. The Chinese ate using our indifference to Africa to the gain of only the China. | |||
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Doc You are just continuing your keyboard "expertise" without knowing history. I am not going to try and make you read and convince you. FYI many Indian dynasties spread their cultural, military and economic influence all the way to Japan and the Philippines. Thai, Indonesian, Cambodian history is full of it. Indian kings rules those countries and established marital alliances. Yes the British were the most manipulative and treacherous and hence they succeeded. The US has done the same. Look at the native Americans and their history. Nothing superior about repeatedly violating peace treaties. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Doc Just remember that I came here to NZ bringing skills and capabilities that were in demand here and better used than in India 30+ years ago. There was nothing inferior about my skills at that time, having lead two joint ventures and working with American & Scottish scientists etc. As I said, you are just embarrassing yourself. The other racist idiots are not worth even responding to. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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Has anyone paid any attention to true racism? India is right at the fore of it! As well as ALL African countries! Of course, no one pays attention to this fact!  | |||
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Well,.... Nobody mourns the original residents of Jericho. Joshua marched around a few times, the walls fell down and in the Israelites went in "New sheriff in town!". Our indigenous Americans don't want to talk about the Navajo coming down out of Alaska, leaving their Athabaskan brothers behind and decimating the Pima. The Shona roughed up the Ndebele pretty good right? For centuries? Not much interest in Reparations there. The outrage is very selective. If the topic is European Colonies then it's all sin, gloom and doom, Evil. Obviously Naki has benefitted from Queen Victoria being named Empress of India, but he's Eastern so like Saeed he's gotta point a finger at the West.  The Infidels no matter the church those two and their kin attend. | |||
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But you do respond. You feel the need to respond. You respond in the most childish, cowardly of manors by addressing us with insults in the 3rd person through reply to others. You call us Idiots, racists, Bigots, Illiterate. All demeaning terms to get your little hit. When in actual fact you can not pull a single sentence from this conversation where I have been racist, bigoted, or illiterate. Thats because Im not judging you on the colour of your skin. Im judging you on what I see in the content of your character. To me Its full of cowardice, false superiority, hate and spite. | |||
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I kind of think thats an important point. Im comfortable enough recognising that the past as far as my people are concerned, is not perfect. But I also want to be able to say to those who want to point the finger. You bloody Hypocrite. Look at your past, you are no different. And for all the bad others want to tar us in the west with, we still were first or among the first to abolish slavery, First to give women the vote, Western style democracy gives people the best quality of life. Western technology is increasing life quality throughout the world. | |||
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Doc Have started reading about Indian history yet? Here are some tips. 1. Who was Vikramaditya? What caste was he? 2. Who was Shivaji? What caste was he? 3. Who was Kutbudin? What was his heritage? 4. Who are the Sidhi community? 5. How many kings were there in Indian history who were of Sidhi descent? I hope this opens the clogged brain of yours. "When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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India before the brits arrived wasn’t a cohesive nation state but rather a fractured series of smaller kingdoms and states each of whom was happy to take over and subjugate adjacent states where it could. That is exactly how the British east India company and later the British state was able to expand its control over what is now modern India, by allying with certain groups or local rulers against others. The majority of soldiers in India under the command of the British were locally recruited Indians, and most conflicts involved not only British but also allied local soldiers. Whilst parts of what is now India may have possessed knowledge greater than the invader India was a patchwork of warring and competing states, not a homogeneous utopia of civilisation, human rights, peace and learning. The divisions within society were exactly what the British were able to exploit to take over. | |||
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And last but not least: Racism. | |||
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Much the same with the native Americans here. They hated their old neighbors more than the whites. If they had banded together, it might have been a different outcome. Old hatreds die hard. | |||
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Similar too NZ. There was quite a bit of support from some tribes for the british, as it gave a chance for the upper hand and UTU/revenge on enemy tribes. And its interesting reading how much autonomy they had and what they gained from it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kūpapa | |||
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Great analysis. That is well researched sir. Did you know that India lost a lot of soldiers in the World War 1 & 2. The correct figure is unattainable because the stats record them as part of British colonial forces. The complexity within your post is of course unfathomable. Not dissimilar to European countries. UK was 4 countries and several smaller dutchies that were ruled by various war lords who fought each other. The same all over Europe.
"When the wind stops....start rowing. When the wind starts, get the sail up quick." | |||
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By now I'm sure folks are thoroughly impressed with your BIG brain. Your credentials, impeccable. Your intellect, unsurpassable. Your honesty, unquestionable. But, After Mozambiquan independence it wasn't Capitalism that replaced Colonialism. It was Marxism. Marxism is an economic and political theory that examines the flaws of capitalism, a type of society where private ownership of the means of production is the primary way people provide for themselves. Marxism is based on the work of German economist and philosopher Karl Marx, who believed that capitalism would eventually stagnate due to internal contradictions and be replaced by socialism. Marxism in this case backed straight from Moscow. Despite the influence of Islamic coastal traders and European colonizers, the people of Mozambique had largely retained an indigenous culture based on subsistence agriculture. At this juncture 80% of Mozambiques tribal culture was based in subsistence farming. When 200,000 Portuguese left after independence, they took most of Mozambique's technological and entrepreneurial talent. In 1977, in step the Marxists, and their Communist collectivist agriculture. Political leadership immediately embarked on replacing colonial mercantilism with Marxism. Private enterprises were nationalized, collective farms created, and centralized planning adopted Yeah, most people can probably guess where this is heading, and, I'm sure Mr BIG brain isn't following along because, well, gee, why would he give a wiff about some peon's opinion... But I digress. Yep, the Marxist's (not Capitalists) brilliant moves led to starvation and death. In fact Naki, The relocation of several million people into collective farms and other communist experiments contributed to food shortages that caused 300-600,000 Mozambicans to starve to death. According to Human Rights Watch, hunger caused more deaths in Mozambique during 1975-1985 than the country's armed conflict. Hundreds of thousands fled from hunger and repressions. Existing research, although limited, confirms the claims by Human Rights Watch that both parties of the civil war were involved in numerous crimes against civilians. So there you have it folks. The Real Reason I referred to several Mozambiquans, who told me their personal lives were better under communism, as fools. . | |||
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