And threatened by Hospital.

I remember when we first stayed sharing these reports. A few here called them false flags and lies.
https://apple.news/AhPKy8zW-TrqyLZA-mOYbzg

The consequences of the Factions advocacy. No, this is not better than the frame work created by Plan Parenthood v Casey.

you only got 2 ways to get it out.

I wonder which one obamacare covered?

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
And threatened by Hospital.

I remember when we first stayed sharing these reports. A few here called them false flags and lies.
https://apple.news/AhPKy8zW-TrqyLZA-mOYbzg

The consequences of the Factions advocacy. No, this is not better than the frame work created by Plan Parenthood v Casey.

So tell us…what were they going to do differently under old law in that situation?

WTF does that have to do with the OP?

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
WTF does that have to do with the OP?

Did you read the article?

I did and I don’t believe the case would have been handled differently under the old law and that is what Joshua and the author wants us to believe.

When you have a State Governor offering a reward to reporting your neighbor having an abortion....

Do you really expect any common sense answers?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by jdollar:
WTF does that have to do with the OP?

Did you read the article?

I did and I don’t believe the case would have been handled differently under the old law and that is what Joshua and the author wants us to believe.

"When she asked about her options, she says she was told she couldn’t receive an abortion under the new state law."

I got that part.

However, she was 4 1/2 months pregnant. She wanted the baby up to the point of the complication. At that point it may have been best course of action medically (I don’t know as I am not an OB GYN) to handle as they did. But, either way…it was coming out vaginally unless a complication arose where trans abdominal surgery was necessary.

So it boils down to whether the 4 day hospital stay was necessary and to the methodology of expulsion or extraction.

I would have to hear the pros and cons from an OB GYN but it may be she received the exact proper course of action

Joshua makes it sound like getting and abortion is magical and the fetus does not have to come through the same route.

I'm still hopeful that hell may indeed exist and that one day it will be populated with the people promoting these types of laws.

These choices should be left to Doctors and patients not some legislator.

This will continue to be a winning issue for Democrats in the years to come, and for a damn good reason.

Forcing a woman to carry an unviable pregnancy to term is the most vile, Unchristian thing I can think of.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I got that part.

However, she was 4 1/2 months pregnant. She wanted the baby up to the point of the complication. At that point it may have been best course of action medically (I don’t know as I am not an OB GYN) to handle as they did. But, either way…it was coming out vaginally unless a complication arose where trans abdominal surgery was necessary.

So it boils down to whether the 4 day hospital stay was necessary and to the methodology of expulsion or extraction.

I would have to hear the pros and cons from an OB GYN but it may be she received the exact proper course of action

Joshua makes it sound like getting and abortion is magical and the fetus does not have to come through the same route.

I am telling you what is happening to women in your state as a direct result of your advocacy.

No magic to it.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I got that part.

However, she was 4 1/2 months pregnant. She wanted the baby up to the point of the complication. At that point it may have been best course of action medically (I don’t know as I am not an OB GYN) to handle as they did. But, either way…it was coming out vaginally unless a complication arose where trans abdominal surgery was necessary.

So it boils down to whether the 4 day hospital stay was necessary and to the methodology of expulsion or extraction.

I would have to hear the pros and cons from an OB GYN but it may be she received the exact proper course of action

Joshua makes it sound like getting and abortion is magical and the fetus does not have to come through the same route.

I am telling you what is happening to women in your state as a direct result of your advocacy.

No magic to it.

And I am saying that case looks like it was handled in a way that appears medically correct regardless of any law. I stand to be corrected by an expert.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
When you have a State Governor offering a reward to reporting your neighbor having an abortion....

Do you really expect any common sense answers?

No.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I got that part.

However, she was 4 1/2 months pregnant. She wanted the baby up to the point of the complication. At that point it may have been best course of action medically (I don’t know as I am not an OB GYN) to handle as they did. But, either way…it was coming out vaginally unless a complication arose where trans abdominal surgery was necessary.

So it boils down to whether the 4 day hospital stay was necessary and to the methodology of expulsion or extraction.

I would have to hear the pros and cons from an OB GYN but it may be she received the exact proper course of action

Joshua makes it sound like getting and abortion is magical and the fetus does not have to come through the same route.

I am telling you what is happening to women in your state as a direct result of your advocacy.

No magic to it.

And I am saying that case looks like it was handled in a way that appears medically correct regardless of any law. I stand to be corrected by an expert.

You're not an expert?!?!

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
I got that part.

However, she was 4 1/2 months pregnant. She wanted the baby up to the point of the complication. At that point it may have been best course of action medically (I don’t know as I am not an OB GYN) to handle as they did. But, either way…it was coming out vaginally unless a complication arose where trans abdominal surgery was necessary.

So it boils down to whether the 4 day hospital stay was necessary and to the methodology of expulsion or extraction.

I would have to hear the pros and cons from an OB GYN but it may be she received the exact proper course of action

Joshua makes it sound like getting and abortion is magical and the fetus does not have to come through the same route.

I am telling you what is happening to women in your state as a direct result of your advocacy.

No magic to it.

And I am saying that case looks like it was handled in a way that appears medically correct regardless of any law. I stand to be corrected by an expert.

You're not an expert?!?!

Is LHyem500?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
And threatened by Hospital.

I remember when we first stayed sharing these reports. A few here called them false flags and lies.
https://apple.news/AhPKy8zW-TrqyLZA-mOYbzg

The consequences of the Factions advocacy. No, this is not better than the frame work created by Plan Parenthood v Casey.

So tell us…what were they going to do differently under old law in that situation?

Perform a D&C?

https://www.ucsfhealth.org/tre...ion-second-trimester

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
And threatened by Hospital.

I remember when we first stayed sharing these reports. A few here called them false flags and lies.
https://apple.news/AhPKy8zW-TrqyLZA-mOYbzg

The consequences of the Factions advocacy. No, this is not better than the frame work created by Plan Parenthood v Casey.

So tell us…what were they going to do differently under old law in that situation?

Perform a D&C?

https://www.ucsfhealth.org/tre...ion-second-trimester

Maybe. But it is not clear cut that would be the better medical option in this case. And it certainly doesn’t resolve without vaginal extraction/expulsion of the fetus…just the methodology.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
And threatened by Hospital.

I remember when we first stayed sharing these reports. A few here called them false flags and lies.
https://apple.news/AhPKy8zW-TrqyLZA-mOYbzg

The consequences of the Factions advocacy. No, this is not better than the frame work created by Plan Parenthood v Casey.

So tell us…what were they going to do differently under old law in that situation?

Perform a D&C?

https://www.ucsfhealth.org/tre...ion-second-trimester

Maybe. But it is not clear cut that would be the better medical option in this case. And it certainly doesn’t resolve without vaginal extraction/expulsion of the fetus…just the methodology.

Bullshit. This lady could have and would have had a 2nd trimester D&C but for the abortion ban in Texas.

Be happy with the consequences you have wrought for Texas women.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Mitchell:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
And threatened by Hospital.

I remember when we first stayed sharing these reports. A few here called them false flags and lies.
https://apple.news/AhPKy8zW-TrqyLZA-mOYbzg

The consequences of the Factions advocacy. No, this is not better than the frame work created by Plan Parenthood v Casey.

So tell us…what were they going to do differently under old law in that situation?

Perform a D&C?

https://www.ucsfhealth.org/tre...ion-second-trimester

Maybe. But it is not clear cut that would be the better medical option in this case. And it certainly doesn’t resolve without vaginal extraction/expulsion of the fetus…just the methodology.

Bullshit. This lady could have and would have had a 2nd trimester D&C but for the abortion ban in Texas.

Be happy with the consequences you have wrought for Texas women.

Well, I guess you are the expert. (In your own mind!)

Still a vaginal extraction…different methodology.

And the poor woman endured days of needless suffering.

Pro-life my ass, pro-controlling others and pushing your sick version of Christianity onto the unwilling is more like it.

Busy-body holier-than-thou know-it-alls is exactly what they all are.....

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
And the poor woman endured days of needless suffering.

Pro-life my ass, pro-controlling others and pushing your sick version of Christianity onto the unwilling is more like it.

Were you there Steve?

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
And the poor woman endured days of needless suffering.

Pro-life my ass, pro-controlling others and pushing your sick version of Christianity onto the unwilling is more like it.

Were you there Steve?

No, but I can read and comprehend.

Were you there Lane?

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Pro-life my ass, pro-controlling others and pushing your sick version of Christianity onto the unwilling is more like it.

And these are the same people that screech about Muslims and the hideous nature of Sharia Law yet they want to impose their own version of religious law here. Hypocrites.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Pro-life my ass, pro-controlling others and pushing your sick version of Christianity onto the unwilling is more like it.

And these are the same people that screech about Muslims and the hideous nature of Sharia Law yet they want to impose their own version of religious law here. Hypocrites.

Isn’t everything involved in American politics is just pure hypocrisy??

Do as I say.

No as I do!

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
And the poor woman endured days of needless suffering.

Pro-life my ass, pro-controlling others and pushing your sick version of Christianity onto the unwilling is more like it.

Were you there Steve?

No, but I can read and comprehend.

Were you there Lane?

No sir…but all I read was that she thought she was in the hospital too long at 4 days. The outcome seems fine.

A D&C is a 2 day procedure at this stage, likely not pleasant either, and not without significant medical complications.

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
Pro-life my ass, pro-controlling others and pushing your sick version of Christianity onto the unwilling is more like it.

And these are the same people that screech about Muslims and the hideous nature of Sharia Law yet they want to impose their own version of religious law here. Hypocrites.

Mike,
To be honest. The pendulum was allowed to swing way too far to the pro-abortion side of things. It has swung back the other direction…rightfully in my opinion. RvW was a poor way to try and settle the subject and a poorly ruled case in my opinion as well. It should be settled in the legislature where it can be amended and seen as the will of the people.

But maybe it has swung too far anti-procedure in some instances…I am not sure. And, I don’t see this case as a clear cut example where best practices weren’t utilized.

Hopefully, it will settle out to a standard in which best medical practices are achieved without killing human beings against their will on whims or out of convenience.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
And the poor woman endured days of needless suffering.

Pro-life my ass, pro-controlling others and pushing your sick version of Christianity onto the unwilling is more like it.

Were you there Steve?

No, but I can read and comprehend.

Were you there Lane?

No sir…but all I read was that she thought she was in the hospital too long at 4 days. The outcome seems fine.

A D&C is a 2 day procedure at this stage, likely not pleasant either, and not without significant medical complications.

So instead of ending a nonviable pregnancy when she first went to the hospital and it was determined to be the case, best medical practice is for her to wait four days until she had a stillbirth?

Bat Shit Crazy.

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by skb:
And the poor woman endured days of needless suffering.

Pro-life my ass, pro-controlling others and pushing your sick version of Christianity onto the unwilling is more like it.

Were you there Steve?

No, but I can read and comprehend.

Were you there Lane?

No sir…but all I read was that she thought she was in the hospital too long at 4 days. The outcome seems fine.

A D&C is a 2 day procedure at this stage, likely not pleasant either, and not without significant medical complications.

So instead of ending a nonviable pregnancy when she first went to the hospital and it was determined to be the case, best medical practice is for her to wait four days until she had a stillbirth?

Bat Shit Crazy.

So now we have expert number 2. (In his own mind as well.)

Do you think they would have rushed her in for D&C on day 1? Likely not. So even if it was second day…that makes 3 days as opposed to 4. Then there is the comparison of complications of each…which would require a REAL expert to lay out.

I remain unconvinced anything out of the realm of good medicine was done here.

There is way too much opinion going on and very little fact here.

Generally, with a formed fetus, the safest way to have the products of conception come out is induction and delivery. It’s unpleasant, but has the least likelihood of post procedure complications such as future infertility or need for emergent hysterectomy.

That being said, if the baby is dead, it isn’t an abortion anymore. If she wanted the baby, then why would they abort it? Once it’s nonviable, it’s not an abortion.

It’s not uncommon for a woman in this situation to undergo a multi day induction, and it is not a pleasant thing… but equally, it should be a decision that is made mutually between the doctor and patient.

Many (not all) of these reports sound like trumped up statements trying to get abortion relegalized in TX.

Some of the claims sound like they are not medically logical- like this one. Evacuation of fetal demise is not an abortion, and using this as a drum beat to change the law is PR, not factual.

That being said, there have been a few cases that do sound logical.

I think the TX law is a bad one.

The problem is that you can’t really write the law in a way that will not be abused by one side of the other.

Abortion is awful, and IMO, abortion as a means of birth control is evil- but not all abortion is evil, and evil is subjective (either it’s a personal decision or it’s God’s, and the mind of God is not fathomable by man…) so from a legal perspective, banning the procedure isn’t right, and leaving it wide open isn’t right either.

As was mentioned, it’s a bit of a pendulum and the left’s insistence on minimal regulation has resulted in this happening. Now it’s overshot the mark and going to remain a fight in our politics for decades to come again.

Roe v Wade should never had been the law. Congress should have been forced to step up and decide. That’s what they are there for, after all.

The Courts are to decide what rights we have under our jurisprudence. Legislatures pass laws. Those are two different concepts.

That’s not how I was taught.

Exactly who wrote the constitution after all?

As I recall, even the Declaration of Independence started with “In congress….”

The courts interpret and adjudicate laws.

Even the court that made Roe v. Wade had attempted to have congress answer that question.

quote:

Originally posted by LHeym500:
The Courts are to decide what rights we have under our jurisprudence. Legislatures pass laws. Those are two different concepts.

Go read up on the Incorporation Doctrine and Fundamental Rights. Those are decided by Courts.

I am tired of teaching those two concepts here.

They are what created Federally Protected Rights that gave us a federal level of citizenship not subject to the whelms of legislatures.

You know like when the Supreme Court incorporated a Federally Protected Right to possess firearms for self defense when the traditional understanding never created such a Right.

Let us make this a little less high brow.

Courts in our system have always had the discretion to invalidate statutes and create rights against legislative action.

For example, some states barred by Statute illegitimate children from inheriting from their fathers.

Ky was one such state. We like most states created the right through the Courts against the legislature. The case here was Pendleton v. Pendleton, Ky., 560 S.W.2d 538 (1977),

Legislatures pass laws. The Courts address rights. Laws can never be unreasonable, arbitrary, or capricious in denying rights.

Point is, the Court addressed the Right of Inheritance.

Now, the KY case was the result of the Federal S. Ct. creating a federally protected right for illegitimate children to inherit.
Trimble v. Gordon, 430 U.S. 762, 97 S. Ct. 1459, 52 L. Ed. 2d 31 (1977),

Again, the Courts address rights.