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| One of Us |
Saeed’s common refrain actually has bearing with this. A lot of the violence in the Middle East has to do with the Cold War and its residuals. The folks living there have been fighting since the dawn of time… but the west and east have been selling them arms and using them as proxies, and agitating groups for various political and economic reasons. This has been going on since before Roman times. I don’t see either China, Russia, or the generically speaking west as changing, either. | |||
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One of Us |
Exactly. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wik...nquest_of_the_Levant Israel is the closest permanent target and so the convenient enemy. If Israel in its entirety picked up and moved in with The Latter Day Saints in Utah, the rest of the folks in the M.E. would simply return to picking on each other as the did in the 1st century AD. 1948 was nothing more than an additional phase. Blaming the Joos is willful ignorance or outright dishonest. | |||
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One of Us |
Besides it is much tribal within each boundary and Europe conflicts seemed to arise from tribal boundaries as well in not so distant past and even in recent times…Ukraine Russia is the latest example | |||
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| One of Us |
Not true in the least. Palestine was largely peaceful and all three of the major religions co-existed for centuries under the Ottomans without nearly the level of violence seen since 1948. The extremism in the ME is fueled by the displacement of the Palestinians as well as how they are currently treated by the Israelis. I know it conflicts with the whole "God's People" thing, it is still the truth though. | |||
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| One of Us |
Ignoring my Wikipedia link above? Or,.... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Barbary_War Neither the Joos nor 1948. | |||
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| One of Us |
You are right Scott. Peace under the Ottoman empire( internally) was due to a powerful army, that ruled with an iron fist. The "tulip" period was peaceful due to economics. The last 150 years they were called the Sick man of Europe, as they were falling apart. Russia was the up and comer. Fascinating time in history! | |||
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| One of Us |
Your first posted link was far before the Ottoman Empire which began in 1299. The Barbary war had nothing to do with ethnicity or tribalism, it was fought over trade issues. Neither of your posts show the Ottoman's to be intolerant of Jews or Christians. Do you really think that period compares to now as far as violence goes? I don't. Today's violence is directly related to the displacement of the Palestinians, and our support of it. I have never once advocated for the removal of any ethnicity from the Holy land, including the Joos. I do believe that you fail to recognize that displacement of the Palestinians is the motivating factor among the modern radical Islamists. | |||
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| One of Us |
Radicalization amongst the islamists has nothing to do with Israel. It has to do with their view of religion. There are certainly some Palestinians who are radicalized by violence and displacement, but those are not islamists- although they may be ripe for the islamists to use as useful idiots. The PLO was not an Islamic organization but rather a nationalist one. Hamas and Hezbollah are Islamist. The Ottoman Empire was pretty intolerant and used an iron fist. No wonder so many of those people assisted the British in overthrowing the Ottoman Empire. It does seem that the common thread of successful rulers in the Middle East, at least historically, is a willingness to ignore human rights and not tolerate dissent.
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| One of Us |
Can you show how the Ottoman's were not tolerant of other religions? Everything I read says Christians and Jews were treated well and allowed to pursue the religion of their choice and ruled via the millet system. Quote from the linked article"Christian and Jewish communities were granted a large degree of autonomy. Tax collection, education, legal and religious affairs of these communities were administered by their own leaders. This enabled the Ottomans to rule over diverse peoples with "a minimum of resistance". The Jewish community, in particular, prospered under Ottoman rule, and its ranks were swelled with the arrival of Jews who were expelled from Spain." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet_(Ottoman_Empire) Sure sounds like better treatment the the Israeli's are giving the Palestinians. See any recent news story on the West Bank for more evidence. | |||
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| One of Us |
There must have been 50+ conflicts in the ME in the last 100 yrs without Israel involved. Iraq and the Kurds Syrian revolt saudi-yemini ararat rebellion Alwazir coup so on and so on. To say it is Israel that is causing the unrest, or that it would go away without an Israel, it's not going to happen. It is the way of the people involved. | |||
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| One of Us |
Exactly. Palestine and Israel are no more or less a piece of the pie. A piece of the pie that's important yes, but then so was/ is Afghanistan, Syria, Mecca, etc. If it matters, I'd be happy to return the region to the Ottoman Empire and their Iron Fist. I wonder what the Taliban and Hamas think? | |||
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| One of Us |
Give it all over to Saeed, he needs something to do in his spare time.  | |||
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| One of Us |
Violence in the Middle East, and elsewhere, began with Cain & Abel. Not that I'm a big fan of Assad, but if I were to offer him a piece of advice, stay away from windows and balconies. It won't do him any good. He's baggage now. | |||
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| One of Us |
This came to mind.
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| One of Us |
It's simply their way to kill each other. It was the same thing with our native tribes. Anyone not of your tribe was an enemy. | |||
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| One of Us |
All the Germans are Nazi's and every Whop I know is part of Costa Nostra as well. A mighty broad brush you chose to paint with. 700K Palestinians expelled from their homes, uncomfortable but true. This is the source of much of the Muslim hatred towards the West. Undeniable, but yet the denials persist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...0by%20its%20military. | |||
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One of Us |
And someone else, I wonder who, killed off a lot of the native tribes and took their lands. I remember there was also a Civil War between the Union and the Confederacy.Europe fought itself over centuries culminating in two World Wars that saw millions upon million dying.Imperial and Soviet Russia killed millions across its domain. King Leopold-II of Belgium oversaw the mutilations and deaths of millions of Congolese.  The British sat over the deaths of millions during the Bengal Famines.Throw in a Pol Pot, a Mao or an Idi Amin for a good measure. Human history is replete with savagery to each other. You were once like that in the not too distant past. It is easier than not to slip back to the "old ways". Without negative interference there is a good possibility that these too can move towards stability and relative peace though I am not sure that it will happen anytime sooner. "Early in the morning, at break of day, in all the freshness and dawn of one's strength, to read a book - I call that vicious!"- Friedrich Nietzsche | |||
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| One of Us |
Yes that is a broad brush look at it. The same as Black africa tribes, and Au aboriginal tribes. There are exceptions of course, if it's in their best interest to coexist..... but there is usually an under level of strength against others with it. You can ignore all the history and claim it's only Israel that causes conflict. Anyone who can read knows it's not true. You want the topic to be about east vs west. It is, and always has been larger than that. If there is not a common foe, they turn on each other. | |||
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| One of Us |
I never once said, nor do I feel, that it is all Israel. What I have said and what I believe is that our support of Israel is one of, if not the biggest reason many Muslims hate the West. Plenty of blame to go around, neither side is free of it. That said, the displacement of 700K Palestinians IS the cause of much of the unrest in the ME today. | |||
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| One of Us |
Sure, as good an answer as any. So why do muslims hate each other? That is the other half of the question not answered. | |||
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| One of Us |
A better question might be, why do people hate each other so much? One of my favorite examples is the Troubles in Northern Ireland, Protestants and Catholics killing each other in horrendous ways for decades. Are you sure it is just the Muslims that hate? I think you see where I'm going with this. It is not the Muslims, the Jews or the Christians. It is humans that hate. | |||
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| One of Us |
Time has changed much of that religious slaughter. With the ME being the oldest advanced society in the world, why have they not evolved to see each others similarities, instead of differences. I would guess it has to do with those in power, but why? Most, if they were not stirred, would go about their business without wanting to kill their neighbor. | |||
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Their rulers are all "king" they own all the waelth, so they govern by deflection and blame others for their peoples lack of well being. The "Palestinians" are A great example! | |||
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| One of Us |
Actually, I did not. I said that there is plenty of blame to go around and that the displacement of 700K Palestinians by Israel is one of, if not the largest reason many Muslims hate the West. How about those peacenik Christians over in Northern Ireland who spent decades killing each other? Didn't those folks begin fighting each other back in the 1500's or so? But back to Israel and why the Palestinians might be upset: Although the causes of the 1948 Palestinian exodus remain a significantly controversial topic in public and political discourse, with a prominent amount of denialism regarding the responsibility of Israeli/Yishuv forces, most scholarship today agrees that expulsions and violence, and the fear thereof, were the primary causes.[10][11][12] Scholars widely describe the event as ethnic cleansing,[13][3][14] although some disagree.[15][16][17] Factors involved in the exodus include direct expulsions by Israeli forces, destruction of Arab villages, psychological warfare including terrorism, massacres such as the widely publicized Deir Yassin massacre[18]: 239–240 which caused many to flee out of fear, crop burning,[19][20] typhoid epidemics in some areas caused by Israeli well-poisoning,[2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...0by%20its%20military Der Yassin: On the morning of April 9, Irgun and Lehi forces entered the village from different directions.[4] The Zionist militants massacred Palestinian Arab villagers, including women and children, using firearms and hand grenades, as they emptied the village of its residents house by house.[5][6] The inexperienced militias encountered resistance from armed villagers and suffered some casualties.[7] The Haganah directly supported the operation, providing ammunition and covering fire, and two Palmach squads entered the village as reinforcement.[8] A number of villagers were taken captive and paraded through West Jerusalem before being executed.[1][9][10] In addition to the killing and widespread looting, there may have been cases of mutilation and rape.[11] For decades it was believed that 254 Palestinian Arabs had been killed, although present scholarship puts the death toll at around 110.[12] By the end of the operation all of the villagers had been expelled[13] and the Haganah took control of the village.[14] In 1949 the village was resettled by Israelis, becoming part of Givat Shaul. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin_massacre I certainly think that Israeli behavior is part of the problem. Are you suggesting the above behavior is not problematic? | |||
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| One of Us |
No, I'm not, but I'd wonder how much info and specifics are known by Muslims outside the reach of modern Western media. I believe a larger problem in! His moment is Westerners like you and I telling ourselves and each other what Eastern priorities, feelings and logic is. I readily admit I have no understanding of M.E. values. So, that means to me that the last couple decades of Introducing Democracy, Rules of Engagement and negotiating with compromise have been a terrible mistake. As I've mentioned before, I favor a wholesale departure from the M.E. We don't understand the culture, priorities or what they take umbrage at. I don't believe Hamas or the Palestinians support a Two State Solution, they've plainly said so. I don't believe HTS would have negotiated with Asaad, they would have tortured and killed him and his entire family if the opportunity presented. The reason I think we're going to get drug back in is not because of some eagerness, but rather because of our past failures. At some point they're going to hit us hard enough to give us the anger to fight to win , we can and we will. It looks like 9/11 wasn't it. | |||
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One of Us |
Well you (and us) did manage to invade a country which had nothing to do with 9/11, with wide public support I might add. The bigger worry for me is the ease with which the public were duped into supporting the invasion ... which cost thousands of western troops their lives with many more thousand maimed or mentally troubled as a result. | |||
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| One of Us |
A large part of the invasion of Iraq was associated with Saddam’s continual statements that turned out to be more delusional blather by him with a past history of use of chemical warfare and his cheering on the terror attacks… that and his threats to assassinate the then- president’s father who was an ex president. While our intelligence agencies didn’t cover themselves with glory, Saddam did believe he had a progressing nuclear program and fundamentally is an example of the pithy colloquial term expression “FAFO”. | |||
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| One of Us |
I hate, absolutely hate what we did to our nations. I had hoped that the Gulf War and War on Terror would be a teaching moment, a lesson learned for the West, but I don't believe it was. I think we're only to eager to do it all over again and deny and similarities to history. | |||
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One of Us |
Saddam invaded Kuwait (perhaps wrongly believing some ill-chosen words from a U.S. minion gave him license to do so). He then got his but kicked by a coalition of mostly Western forces that recognized Saddam, being the idiot he was, wasn’t going to be satisfied with just Kuwait. After the collapse of his armies and the 24th ID just down the road from Baghdad, Saddam agreed to terms of capitulation that had a myriad of military and civil prohibitions. He started breaking the conditions immediately, with informed speculation that the U.S. would look the other way and not hold him accountable. I look at it this way. There is a good argument that the first Gulf War was justified in that the rest of the world did not need to allow Saddam carte blanche in the Gulf. Heck, most of the Gulf States were active participants or allowed use of their bases and ports. So… if kicking Saddam out of Kuwait was necessary to “save” Saudi Arabia, et al, ENFORCING the surrender agreement was a NECESSARY action the stop the mad man from just biding his time and rearming for another go. Otherwise, peace treaties and surrender terms mean nothing. Which, they didn’t. If Saddam had had his butt kicked again immediately after he started shooting at our planes in the no-fly zone or gassed Kurds… the second Gulf war would not have been necessary. JMHO
JudgeG ... just counting time 'til I am again finding balm in Gilead chilled out somewhere in the Selous. | |||
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| One of Us |
The people who displaced Assad are Muslim. It's not just West vs. East, or Jew/Christian vs. Muslim. Ponder that. | |||
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| One of Us |
My point. These folks are prickly. A bit adversarial. If they can't pick on you because your a woman or child, if they can't bully you because you're from a different tribe or Islamic sect, they'll attack you based on your skin color, ethnicity, nationality, or retirement plan. Western morals and values don't apply in the M.E. | |||
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