Wishing the best to all of us privileged to call ourselves Americans, no matter what happens tomorrow. May we focus on the great blessings we share in common, and God save us from poor losers.

Appreciate that Bill, a welcome change from all the imbecilic name calling most on here engage in.

I won't join in your best wishes to all.

Although I don't expect it to happen, if Trump wins, I won't be able to forgive and accept those who sold out our country out of self-interest, sexism, and bigotry.

The vast majority vote their self-interest.
Hard not to, as most are not wealthy enough to do otherwise.
Peoples self interest is just as valid a reason for the way they vote as any other. Just because you dont like it, doesnt change the way they feel.

That’s amazing Roland.

We still have three branches of government, a bicameral legislature, and countervailing powers.
Our Republic will survive, bemused and weary...

quote:

Originally posted by tomahawker:
That’s amazing Roland.

I guess I overstated my case. My father and one brother are foolish and short-sighted enough to vote for Trump. I'll certainly forgive and accept them.

Speaking of family, I care more about them than my ability to own an AR. Or any gun. I'm convinced that Trump would be a disaster for my kids and grandkids.

Some other exceptions besides family:

- Those who suffer from senile dementia, like my Mom did, but still have someone like my dad to take them to vote.

- Those who suffer from a mental illness involving delusions or hallucinations.

- Those with an IQ of less than 80, who can't be expected to have any sense, discernment, or critical thinking skills.

I realize the last exception covers many, if not most, Trump supporters, so I may be stuck forgiving most Trump voters.

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
We still have three branches of government, a bicameral legislature, and countervailing powers.
Our Republic will survive, bemused and weary...

Tom, I have previously addressed your opinion as stated in the above quote.

I am disappointed that it had no sway.

So, I'll tackle it again in a different way.

Search question: Does Hungary have three branches of government?

Results:

Yes, Hungary has three branches of government: the legislature, the executive, and the judiciary:

Legislature
The Parliament, or National Assembly, is the supreme legislative body. It has 199 members who are elected for four-year terms. Parliament's duties include adopting the constitution, creating legislation, and overseeing the government.

Executive
The government exercises executive power. The prime minister leads the cabinet, which is the executive branch. The prime minister is elected by the national assembly on the recommendation of the president.

Judiciary
The judiciary is the system of courts. The constitutional court has the power to challenge legislation that it deems unconstitutional. The high court of justice is the highest court in the country.
The three branches of government operate independently but also monitor each other's activities, which is known as a system of checks and balances.

==========================================================

https://youtu.be/0QH25LPXHKU?si=4g7MZvQiIL8y78ek

Hungary’s Orbán gives Trump an “illiberal” roadmap for American conservatives

Mar 8, 2024
Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán is meeting with former President Donald Trump on Friday, after a visit to Washington Thursday where he met no one from the Biden administration. Orbán has delayed both European aid to Ukraine and Sweden’s bid to join NATO. Nick Schifrin reports on Orbán’s relationship with global conservatives and why he has resisted some of Biden’s top priorities in Europe.

===============================================

Oh yea, BTW, best wishes to everyone.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
We still have three branches of government, a bicameral legislature, and countervailing powers.
Our Republic will survive, bemused and weary...

Tom, I have previously addressed your opinion as stated in the above quote.

I am disappointed that it had no sway.

So, I'll tackle it again in a different way.

Search question: Does Hungary have three branches of government?

Results:

Yes, Hungary has three branches of government: the legislature, the executive, and the judiciary:

Legislature
The Parliament, or National Assembly, is the supreme legislative body. It has 199 members who are elected for four-year terms. Parliament's duties include adopting the constitution, creating legislation, and overseeing the government.

Executive
The government exercises executive power. The prime minister leads the cabinet, which is the executive branch. The prime minister is elected by the national assembly on the recommendation of the president.

Judiciary
The judiciary is the system of courts. The constitutional court has the power to challenge legislation that it deems unconstitutional. The high court of justice is the highest court in the country.
The three branches of government operate independently but also monitor each other's activities, which is known as a system of checks and balances.

==========================================================

https://youtu.be/0QH25LPXHKU?si=4g7MZvQiIL8y78ek

Hungary’s Orbán gives Trump an “illiberal” roadmap for American conservatives

Mar 8, 2024
Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán is meeting with former President Donald Trump on Friday, after a visit to Washington Thursday where he met no one from the Biden administration. Orbán has delayed both European aid to Ukraine and Sweden’s bid to join NATO. Nick Schifrin reports on Orbán’s relationship with global conservatives and why he has resisted some of Biden’s top priorities in Europe.

I am an electrical engineer.
It's interesting to know how systems work.
It's important to know how systems fail.

Every man-made system fails, given time and changes in circumstances. The other side of what I'd said before.
That's the quiet part, not usually spoken out loud (especially with regard to nuclear weapons safeguards).

It is up to us to preserve what we have, to anticipate the down sides of changes to it, and do what's indicated.

It worked okay for 200+ years, through a civil war, etc.

Why now do we face the down-side?

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
It worked okay for 200+ years, through a civil war, etc.

Why now do we face the down-side?

We have become more like a democracy then a republic, and susceptible to a wider Overton Window in public discussion and advertising.
Our representatives too often follow the whims of the electorate, in opposition to sober judgement that may not be popular at the time.
Our electorate takes what we have for granted, not knowing the alternatives and their associated downsides.
In short, a crisis of leadership at a time when sober and informed leadership is needed.

A hint from Thomas Sowell - knowledge and judgement in our society are dispersed.

Now there's a handful of sentences that don't seem to dovetail...

"Dovetail"

Well, Tom, the best compliment I can give you is to say - written like an engineer.

I did look up some of your terms just to be sure I understood, such as "Overton Window". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

So, are you saying that the conservative "Overton Window" has widened to include an Orban formula of governance, and that's just a progression to be expected and you're okay with it?

There is almost too much packed there to unpack.

So, I'll just focus on one aspect:

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/10...a-republic-yes-it-is

Is America a democracy or a republic? Yes, it is
September 10, 2022, 5:00 AM ET

=====================================

Really, though, I don't want to divert the discussion to Democracy vs Republic. I think that is a distraction, and basically meaningless, as explained in the article.

And life will go on
Do we really care who voted for who and hold it against them?
I don’t, and if anyone does, they are idiots
It’s just another election and both sides hope they win, there will only be one winner so then onto a next election…

quote:

there will only be one winner

In my view, if Harris wins, everyone wins.

If Trump wins, everyone loses.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:

quote:

there will only be one winner

In my view, if Harris wins, everyone wins.

If Trump wins, everyone loses.

Says a commie supporting voter.

The other half feels exactly the opposite.

A well know member here sent me a message.

Says it is like having an ERECTION day in America.

One half of the population would be having one, and the other half would feel well and truly fucked!

He says he did not dare post it himself!

Such person is obviously conservative, but there's a catch or two.

Since conservatives are keen about gender specifics, obviously only males get erections.

And statistically, women outnumber men in the population.

And not all men can get an erection, probably Trump included.

There are lots of women voters who say to those with erections "go fuck yourself".

So, need I explain further why that quip is nonsense?

Good try though.

Again, roughly half of the people in the country think that another Trump presidency will be disastrous for the nation. The other half feels the same about the possibility of a Harris presidency. There is, as usual, a significant urban/rural split. Liberals seem to be more condescending toward conservatives and label them as stupid and uneducated. Conservatives tend to view liberals as impractical and lacking common sense or real world experience. The wealthy and more highly educated in both camps look down on the productive worker class, though both will claim kinship when it suits them.
The working class, tired of carrying the nation on their backs, just vote for whomever shows them a little respect. I, like them, just hope the winner doesn't screw things up too badly. Regards, Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
Again, roughly half of the people in the country think that another Trump presidency will be disastrous for the nation. The other half feels the same about the possibility of a Harris presidency. There is, as usual, a significant urban/rural split. Liberals seem to be more condescending toward conservatives and label them as stupid and uneducated. Conservatives tend to view liberals as impractical and lacking common sense or real world experience. The wealthy and more highly educated in both camps look down on the productive worker class, though both will claim kinship when it suits them.
The working class, tired of carrying the nation on their backs, just vote for whomever shows them a little respect. I, like them, just hope the winner doesn't screw things up too badly. Regards, Bill

The working man, ( me,) won't prosper from either.

Both are social degenerates. I wouldn't model myself after either and will emphatically ban my daughter from doing the same. Both candidates are professionally dishonorable. I pay my debts and earn my keep. Again, I'll be telling my baby about the sins of bailouts, loan forgiveness, bankruptcy, etc.

It's a damnable guarantee that both candidates if successful will pay off their cronys and supportive Oligarchs while the tradesmen that built the stages for their rallys, maintained the automobiles in their convoy, washed the sheets from their bed and prepared their meals will be not just ignored but be taken advantage of. Our roads will continue to crumble, our public lands will be destroyed in wildfire, our levees and bridges continue to fail, the education of the public school students will suffer, all the while corporate dividends will be lucrative.

https://fox40.com/news/local-n...nty-victoria-island/

Which federal idiot(s) thought this was a good idea?

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
We still have three branches of government, a bicameral legislature, and countervailing powers.
Our Republic will survive, bemused and weary...

The Republic may indeed survive…albeit unrecognizable to its inhabitants.

quote:

Originally posted by Bill/Oregon:
Wishing the best to all of us privileged to call ourselves Americans, no matter what happens tomorrow. May we focus on the great blessings we share in common, and God save us from poor losers.

Greetings Bill! Best wishes to all.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
We still have three branches of government, a bicameral legislature, and countervailing powers.
Our Republic will survive, bemused and weary...

The Republic may indeed survive…albeit unrecognizable to its inhabitants.

If Trump wins that is certainly a possibility. Lord knows he wants to return us to the 1950's.

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
We still have three branches of government, a bicameral legislature, and countervailing powers.
Our Republic will survive, bemused and weary...

The Republic may indeed survive…albeit unrecognizable to its inhabitants.

If Trump wins that is certainly a possibility. Lord knows he wants to return us to the 1950's.

We couldn’t be so lucky.

God's will WILL be done. It's those poor losers that worry me. And they don't seem to be on the left side of the spectrum -- just on the far right. The "left arm must be amputated" mutterings I have been reading in largely conservative firearms, hunting and muzzleloading forums have been truly worrisome.
Anyone who contemplates violence against fellow Americans just because they didn't get their way at the ballot box is no patriot, but in fact just the opposite -- a traitor to our historic values.

"Ah, the good 'ol days. When gays and queers were in the closet or ostracized. When blacks were on the right side of the tracks and had their own schools. When local, state and federal elected officials were all white, men and protestant . . . with a handful of catholics and Jews thrown in for eye wash. When women knew their role in life was cooking, cleaning and birthing babies. Ah, the good 'ol days, I long for them even now."

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:

quote:

Originally posted by Bill Leeper:
Again, roughly half of the people in the country think that another Trump presidency will be disastrous for the nation. The other half feels the same about the possibility of a Harris presidency. There is, as usual, a significant urban/rural split. Liberals seem to be more condescending toward conservatives and label them as stupid and uneducated. Conservatives tend to view liberals as impractical and lacking common sense or real world experience. The wealthy and more highly educated in both camps look down on the productive worker class, though both will claim kinship when it suits them.
The working class, tired of carrying the nation on their backs, just vote for whomever shows them a little respect. I, like them, just hope the winner doesn't screw things up too badly. Regards, Bill

The working man, ( me,) won't prosper from either.

Both are social degenerates. I wouldn't model myself after either and will emphatically ban my daughter from doing the same. Both candidates are professionally dishonorable. I pay my debts and earn my keep. Again, I'll be telling my baby about the sins of bailouts, loan forgiveness, bankruptcy, etc.

It's a damnable guarantee that both candidates if successful will pay off their cronys and supportive Oligarchs while the tradesmen that built the stages for their rallys, maintained the automobiles in their convoy, washed the sheets from their bed and prepared their meals will be not just ignored but be taken advantage of. Our roads will continue to crumble, our public lands will be destroyed in wildfire, our levees and bridges continue to fail, the education of the public school students will suffer, all the while corporate dividends will be lucrative.

https://fox40.com/news/local-n...nty-victoria-island/

Which federal idiot(s) thought this was a good idea?

You will only prosper if you want to prosper
Everything else is excuse

quote:

Originally posted by MJines:
"Ah, the good 'ol days. When gays and queers were in the closet or ostracized. When blacks were on the right side of the tracks and had their own schools. When local, state and federal elected officials were all white, men and protestant . . . with a handful of catholics and Jews thrown in for eye wash. When women knew their role in life was cooking, cleaning and birthing babies. Ah, the good 'ol days, I long for them even now."

What makes you say something like that?

Always remember, keep them ignorant and preferably without shoes if you want the statistics to favor a successful marriage:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/life...UR?ocid=BingNewsSerp

. . . I was channeling some of this forum's finest.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by Steve Bertram:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by TomP:
We still have three branches of government, a bicameral legislature, and countervailing powers.
Our Republic will survive, bemused and weary...

The Republic may indeed survive…albeit unrecognizable to its inhabitants.

If Trump wins that is certainly a possibility. Lord knows he wants to return us to the 1950's.

We couldn’t be so lucky.

You mean when GOP president signed and supported tax increase.

Unrecognizable?

Like continued accesses to the courts;
The inability for a religious minority or majority to force us to pray like them;
Fundamental Rights protected by the courts;
States restricted from warrantless search and seizures;
Every citizen held to the same legal standard regardless of wealth or power;
The continued ending of racial gerrymandering;
Limiting the state from legislating our bedroom;
End of Tax cuts that do not help working class nor working poor;
Strengthening public education that holds our communities together;
Stopping voter restrictions that are designed to keep citizens from voting (see KY Amendment 1)
End the accumulation of untaxed wealth while the middle class pays everything.


Ask the woman of Texas and Alabama how recognizable the limited Constitutional Democracy is.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
"Dovetail"

Well, Tom, the best compliment I can give you is to say - written like an engineer.

I did look up some of your terms just to be sure I understood, such as "Overton Window". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

So, are you saying that the conservative "Overton Window" has widened to include an Orban formula of governance, and that's just a progression to be expected and you're okay with it?

There is almost too much packed there to unpack.

So, I'll just focus on one aspect:

https://www.npr.org/2022/09/10...a-republic-yes-it-is

Is America a democracy or a republic? Yes, it is
September 10, 2022, 5:00 AM ET

=====================================

Really, though, I don't want to divert the discussion to Democracy vs Republic. I think that is a distraction, and basically meaningless, as explained in the article.

I did not mean to even hint at being OK with it. I grew up in the Pollyana-ish zone of Midwest 1950s, and Orban's authoritarian civics are foreign to me. Donald Trump has kicked the Overton Window out of its frame, and left it on the front lawn. In my teens, even, the rhetoric we accept now in campaign speech would have excluded the candidate from consideration. John Kennedy spoke like the educated man he was, did not dumb down or coarsen his speech for effect. I can usually tell when someone is talking down to me, and I don't like it.

We have an issue with federal debt, we are supplying weapons of destruction to multiple wars in quantities that are not being replaced, and we have a problem with borders. We are fed platitudes and gossip about Arnold Palmer's organs of generation. What's this? Thomas Jefferson mentioned organs of generation in one of his writings, but it wasn't in a campaign speech.

We are now a coarser society with an unhealthy interest in what's permissible and not, in speech and action. We are now seemingly OK with prohibiting things we don't like, confusing rights with privileges, scraping our legislative fenders on the guardrails. Shunning a heretic is one thing, burning the heretic at the stake is another matter. We are too quick to prohibit, too lackadaisical in what we tolerate.

Yes, I am an engineer. I prefer to work with what Harold Geneen called "unshakeable facts".
Our most recent candidates cannot even agree on a set of facts to discuss, and this bothers me.

Well, I agree with you that Trump is talking down to all of us and some like it.

All that other stuff you mentioned aside, it's not just the candidates who cannot agree on facts to discuss, so do we herein and across the nation. And it bothers me.

Speaking of facts to discuss, "and Orban's authoritarian civics are foreign to me", just skips right past my question.

Enough is known, and available to you if paying attention, about Orban's civics, his buddyship with Trump, and his formula for how to convert a republic to authoritarian, through the System.

Trumpsters in power and seeking power and want to perpetuate it surly are paying attention.

Yet you claim that since we still have and presumably will have thru another Trump term gives you assurance and implies it should for all of us.

We are not really having a discussion. I'm trying. You are not.

quote:

Originally posted by Magine Enigam:
Well, I agree with you that Trump is talking down to all of us and some like it.

All that other stuff you mentioned aside, it's not just the candidates who cannot agree on facts to discuss, so do we herein and across the nation. And it bothers me.

Speaking of facts to discuss, "and Orban's authoritarian civics are foreign to me", just skips right past my question.

Enough is known, and available to you if paying attention, about Orban's civics, his buddyship with Trump, and his formula for how to convert a republic to authoritarian, through the System.

Trumpsters in power and seeking power and want to perpetuate it surly are paying attention.

Yet you claim that since we still have and presumably will have thru another Trump term gives you assurance and implies it should for all of us.

We are not really having a discussion. I'm trying. You are not.

I have not read Project 2025, which I gather is the blueprint for doing here what Orban has done in Hungary.
Trump says he hasn't read it either. That may be, it doesn't look like he reads much.

He probably wants to "discover" its merits after the election, once we cannot vote him out until his term ends, by which time his buddies will have presumably gotten what they want out of him. He is life imitating art, the echo of Asimov's Mule, from the Foundation tales.

If I had to choose, and it mattered, I might vote differently, but there is the Libertarian alternative (but only for president - our top-two primary is serving its purpose to strangle third parties in their cribs).

For today, I will mail a ballot and go to the hardware store for metric screws. By January 20 we will know more about what to do.

There is an issue coming through that concerns me.

Not liking trump and not voting for him, seems to be not enough for some on the left.

You have to be seen to endorse Harris as well.

Thats a dangerous precedent to accept.

The issue you mentioned, Shanks, IMO doesn't exist.

Since so many of you characterize it in terms of lesser of evils, I will too for sake of understanding this single issue you mention.

If there is an endorsement in all this, it's endorsing sanity vs insanity regarding the individuals.

Regarding the party, it's project 2025 or the alternative.

I do not think of voting for Harris by some self-deemed conservatives as an endorsement of her and party, but instead rejecting Trumpism specifically and the best way to do that is vote them out.

Of course I see it differently. I would struggle to vote for the democrats right now. Id happily not vote for trump or harris and not see it as a false equivalence.
On this type of thinking. Dems, I dont like your politics, but I recognise that my not voting is going to help let you win.
There is a relevant message there for the dems to learn from and take on board if they choose.

quote:

There is a relevant message there for the dems to learn from and take on board if they choose.

The relevant message that I have taken on board is there is no way to please all of the people all the time. So, the best we can do is please most of the people most of the time.

And hope you don't join the radicals for lack of being pleased most of the time.

Thats an old message. I personally like my parties to be close too the centre. As long as the centre dont shift too far.

I modified the "message" a little.

I too like the center. That's the point if the modified message.

quote:

Originally posted by RolandtheHeadless:
I won't join in your best wishes to all.

Although I don't expect it to happen, if Trump wins, I won't be able to forgive and accept those who sold out our country out of self-interest, sexism, and bigotry.

If the economy is affecting your ability to survive, people don't give a fuck about any of the above.

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:
Thats an old message. I personally like my parties to be close too the centre. As long as the centre dont shift too far.

Conservatives are the new center
Dems turned hard left and off the cliff